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£23 bn in bad state loans

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stacker512
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Re: £23 bn in bad state loans

#347156

Postby stacker512 » October 12th, 2020, 5:09 pm

YeeWo wrote:
NeilW wrote:Of course, we can do better than give money to Fat Cats. We could have hired the unemployed for example, given them to local authorities and got the local authorities to use those people to do something useful for their money. The circulation effects would be the same, but the real output would be higher.
Have you Any Idea whatsoever how petrifyingly authoritarian your words sound? :shock:
NeilW wrote: We could have hired the unemployed for example, given them to local authorities to use those people to do something useful .
Do the words "Arbeit macht frei" mean anything to you? People shouldn't be rounded-up and placed at the control of shambolic bureaucrats. Local Authorities struggle to competently provide roads, schools and refuse collection. Government needs to do as much pump-priming as is possible to allow free enterprise to adapt to the catastrophe we are all enduring. Adam Smith and John James Cowperthwaite will drag us out of this mess, Karl Marx or Adolf Hitler should hold no appeal whatsoever to free people.


You've invoked Godwin's Law, therefore according to the usual maxim on the Internet, you've already lost the argument.

I don't think NeilW's post was authoritarian, as the unemployed were going to be hired and therefore given pay. How is that different to a big employer putting out 1000 job adverts with full pay + pension + benefits?

Edited to add: NeilW didn't say the unemployed would be rounded up, those were your words only.

NeilW
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Re: £23 bn in bad state loans

#347168

Postby NeilW » October 12th, 2020, 5:50 pm

YeeWo wrote:[Have you Any Idea whatsoever how petrifyingly authoritarian your words sound?


How is giving a job to somebody who hasn't got one authoritarian? I mean seriously - have you ever been unemployed? That's really scary.

When they have money to spend then the private sector comes back and hires them away, leaving very few remaining. It's a simple auto-stabiliser that keeps people work-ready while the private sector reorganises its affairs properly.

Far better than asking the private sector to pay 33% of wages for nothing in return propping up zombie jobs. For capitalism to recover, firms must be allowed to reconfigure their workforce without interference - or guilt in letting people go.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: £23 bn in bad state loans

#347349

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 13th, 2020, 12:24 pm

GoSeigen wrote:Thx for the link. Agree with Dod, the MMT stuff is nonsense.

100 people have a pound each. Government takes the pound from them and lends £100 to Fat Cat who promises to pay it back. Fat Cat doesn't pay it back. 100 people have permanently transferred their one pound to Fat Cat with the aid of the government. There's really not much more to it than that. If assets end up in the hands of someone unintended at the expense of someone else that is a loss in any usual sense of the word.

Agree 23bn/58bn is a high loss ratio. Actual losses may be lower. Whether the funds should have been issued in the first place is another question...

GS

100 people have their pound diluted. That's called inflation, and over the past 20 years (with the rise of cheap consumer goods imports from China and others) has manifested in the massive rise in price of the things people save for - houses and pensions.

Your Fat Cat could be a Yeltsin-generation Russian Oligarch or post-war London Landlord: someone who got obscenely rich in a government-sponsored kleptocracy. To what extent the £23bn (if that is the figure) is in the same class remains to be seen: doubtless some recipients have genuinely done no more than offset losses arising from government restrictions on them.


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