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Our societie's situation.

including Budgets
gryffron
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#350998

Postby gryffron » October 27th, 2020, 11:29 am

Gryff's ultimate solution: Universal Basic Income. UBI. We pay everyone just enough to survive on, and no more. If you want anything other than the absolute basics, you have to work for it.

Everyone gets the same. No housing benefit, no free school meals, no state pensions.
Everyone pays the same. No banded rates, no tax allowances, no council tax deductions, no subsidised council housing, flat rate tax on all income regardless of level and regardless of source.
Oh, and no minimum wage, because it is unneccesary.

Other than that, as NeilW says, let the market sort it out. If people can't afford to live in inner cities, they'll have to move somewhere cheaper. If employers can't find workers in the cities, they'll have to increase wages.

Carers can find work part time when the kids are at school if they want. They get UBI regardless, so no disruption to benefits. Unlike present system where part time/irregular work plays havoc with benefits, which is why the unemployed are so reluctant to take it. The bureaucracy and complexity of the current benefits system is a real disincentive.

Flat rate tax means everything can be taxed at source. So only the self employed will need to do tax returns.

I will concede getting from where we are now to my utopian paradise might take a bit of a struggle though.

Gryff

airbus330
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351138

Postby airbus330 » October 27th, 2020, 7:14 pm

I live in the USSW or Wales as it used to known at. Wales has the highest dependency on benefits and 1/3 of the working population work directly for the state. Most of the well paid (relatively) jobs are state jobs.
Anecdotally, I know only 1 person in my social ecosystem who works outside of the state/quango/state supported/charity supported sector. This has barely changed in the 20 years that I have lived here. The reason I have put the info above in is that they would read this thread and find it incomprehensible (and possibly evil) that anyone should speak out against the state intervention in every aspect of our lives. Hence my reference to the USSR. Wales is a lot like the old Soviet system where everyone could expect to work and have a basic level of state services. This has bled the Welsh dry of any sense of standing on their own two feet and Welsh entrepreneurship is very thin on the ground, bearing in mind that most startup businesses of any size require state support to set up here in the first place. You now have a devolved government that lives on the back of this needy population pandering to its needs both emotionally and financially. It is all deeply cynical, keep the benefit train running and no-one complains, the same dodgy councils and assembly members are voted in every few years. I often wonder what will make the wheels come off the bus. When the money stops flowing. When people finally realise they have been conned.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351313

Postby ursaminortaur » October 28th, 2020, 12:17 pm

airbus330 wrote:I live in the USSW or Wales as it used to known at. Wales has the highest dependency on benefits and 1/3 of the working population work directly for the state. Most of the well paid (relatively) jobs are state jobs.
Anecdotally, I know only 1 person in my social ecosystem who works outside of the state/quango/state supported/charity supported sector. This has barely changed in the 20 years that I have lived here. The reason I have put the info above in is that they would read this thread and find it incomprehensible (and possibly evil) that anyone should speak out against the state intervention in every aspect of our lives. Hence my reference to the USSR. Wales is a lot like the old Soviet system where everyone could expect to work and have a basic level of state services. This has bled the Welsh dry of any sense of standing on their own two feet and Welsh entrepreneurship is very thin on the ground, bearing in mind that most startup businesses of any size require state support to set up here in the first place. You now have a devolved government that lives on the back of this needy population pandering to its needs both emotionally and financially. It is all deeply cynical, keep the benefit train running and no-one complains, the same dodgy councils and assembly members are voted in every few years. I often wonder what will make the wheels come off the bus. When the money stops flowing. When people finally realise they have been conned.


There were about 1,487,000 people employed in Wales in 2019 of which about 1.1 million work in the private sector (figure from 2017)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49647279

The data suggested about 1,487,000 people are in employment in Wales.
.
.
.
The employment rate in Wales was 74.7%. Across the UK it was 76.1%.


https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/top-10-biggest-private-sector-12424893

More than 1.1 million people work in the private sector in Wales, and while most of them work for small or medium sized businesses, nearly two in every five work for companies that employ more than 250 people.

airbus330
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351341

Postby airbus330 » October 28th, 2020, 1:49 pm

My figures are from the Welsh Governments statistics. 28% work directly for the Welsh state (Welsh NHS,Welsh Civil Service,Teachers). This does not include indirect UK state jobs such as DVLA financed by the DFT. I should have been more clear. The majority of private sector jobs are held in SME's. The majority of these jobs are minimum wage or close to. Due to this, many employees will be on substantial in-work benefits. Having recently had close exposure to the job market in Wales I can tell you that a job picking items in the Amazon warehouse is considered a great outcome by Job Centre staff. You can argue the toss over numbers but it doesn't change the nature of the beast.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351344

Postby Lootman » October 28th, 2020, 1:58 pm

airbus330 wrote:My figures are from the Welsh Governments statistics. 28% work directly for the Welsh state (Welsh NHS,Welsh Civil Service,Teachers). This does not include indirect UK state jobs such as DVLA financed by the DFT. I should have been more clear. The majority of private sector jobs are held in SME's. The majority of these jobs are minimum wage or close to. Due to this, many employees will be on substantial in-work benefits. Having recently had close exposure to the job market in Wales I can tell you that a job picking items in the Amazon warehouse is considered a great outcome by Job Centre staff. You can argue the toss over numbers but it doesn't change the nature of the beast.

I know quite a few people who live in Wales and every one of them either works for some part of the government (NHS, schools, councils etc) or else is in receipt of a state pension, benefits or some kind of government grant. This includes a family of five where all five of them are on the public payroll one way or the other. It does seem to be a form of institutionalism to me.

The same may well be true of Scotland, Northern Ireland or even the north of England, but I don't know so many people who live in those parts and so do not perceive it first hand. The public teat would appear to be widely seen as a lifestyle option by many, including a majority in broad areas.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351355

Postby ursaminortaur » October 28th, 2020, 2:27 pm

airbus330 wrote:My figures are from the Welsh Governments statistics. 28% work directly for the Welsh state (Welsh NHS,Welsh Civil Service,Teachers). This does not include indirect UK state jobs such as DVLA financed by the DFT. I should have been more clear. The majority of private sector jobs are held in SME's. The majority of these jobs are minimum wage or close to. Due to this, many employees will be on substantial in-work benefits. Having recently had close exposure to the job market in Wales I can tell you that a job picking items in the Amazon warehouse is considered a great outcome by Job Centre staff. You can argue the toss over numbers but it doesn't change the nature of the beast.


In 2018 it was around 20% that work in the public sector and even at its peak back in 2009 it was only 27.4% rather than the third you claimed.

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/1517194-share-of-welsh-workforce-in-the-public-sector-reaches-historic-low

The share of the Welsh workforce employed in the public sector has reached a historic low.

In its latest report, Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre reveals that in 2018, 20% of employees in Wales were working in the public sector, down from a peak of 27.4% in 2009.


Of course Covid may well have distorted the latest figures since it is more likely that the private sector will have laid off workers.

As to in-work benefits that is down to government policy allowing employers to get away with underpaying workers and applies across the UK - as far as I am aware there isn't a Wales specific minimum wage and benefits are also the same in England and Wales.

airbus330
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351356

Postby airbus330 » October 28th, 2020, 2:30 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/top-10-biggest-private-sector-12424893

More than 1.1 million people work in the private sector in Wales, and while most of them work for small or medium sized businesses, nearly two in every five work for companies that employ more than 250 people.


Urg! Shouldn't bite, but WalesOnline is a kind of mouthpiece for the WA. So lets look at the ToP 10 Private Employers in Wales.

Admiral- Minimum wage call centres
Finsbury Food - Minimum wage cake making
SA Brain- minimum wage brewers
The Principality BS 6th largest employer with 1100 ppl mostly minimum wage
Bluestone Resort - minimum wage and seasonal. But does have profit share whoppee
Arriva Trains Wales - Now nationalized to become Transport for Wales Rail. Great money/state job
Dwr Cymru - Not for profit state controlled indirectly good employer
Kalsonic - Had more subsidies than the Arts Council. Currently making redundancies in spite of a new....subsidy
Tata Steel - Once the pride of Wales along with coal. Now employs a rump of skilled well paid jobs, but always under threat of closure unless....you guessed it...they get subsidies. Great employer btw.
Finally, Airbus, the true skilled large employer in Wales, well there had to be one. But, will it survive Brexit and Covid19?
This list made me feel more depressed about our children's future than I was already.

airbus330
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351358

Postby airbus330 » October 28th, 2020, 2:34 pm


Lootman
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351372

Postby Lootman » October 28th, 2020, 3:08 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:As to in-work benefits that is down to government policy allowing employers to get away with underpaying workers and applies across the UK - as far as I am aware there isn't a Wales specific minimum wage and benefits are also the same in England and Wales.

Actually anyone on minimum wage is probably overpaid relative to what their pay would be without a minimum wage, by definition.

Whilst anyone who is paid more than minimum wage presumably freely negotiated that level of pay, and their employer deemed them worthy of higher pay.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351377

Postby ursaminortaur » October 28th, 2020, 3:13 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:As to in-work benefits that is down to government policy allowing employers to get away with underpaying workers and applies across the UK - as far as I am aware there isn't a Wales specific minimum wage and benefits are also the same in England and Wales.

Actually anyone on minimum wage is probably overpaid relative to what their pay would be without a minimum wage, by definition.

Whilst anyone who is paid more than minimum wage presumably freely negotiated that level of pay, and their employer deemed them worthy of higher pay.


The fact that the government has to pay in-work benefits means that the wages those employees are being paid by their employers are too low. The government is subsidising employers.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351380

Postby Lootman » October 28th, 2020, 3:15 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:As to in-work benefits that is down to government policy allowing employers to get away with underpaying workers and applies across the UK - as far as I am aware there isn't a Wales specific minimum wage and benefits are also the same in England and Wales.

Actually anyone on minimum wage is probably overpaid relative to what their pay would be without a minimum wage, by definition.

Whilst anyone who is paid more than minimum wage presumably freely negotiated that level of pay, and their employer deemed them worthy of higher pay.

The fact that the government has to pay in-work benefits means that the wages those employees are being paid by their employers are too low. The government is subsidising employers.

That is nonsense. As an employer the amount I pay you reflects the value of your labour to my business and its profits. That amount has a floor (minimum wage) but not a ceiling. If I pay you more than you are worth it is because the government forces me to do that. The situation is the exact opposite of what you claim.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351385

Postby ursaminortaur » October 28th, 2020, 3:21 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:Actually anyone on minimum wage is probably overpaid relative to what their pay would be without a minimum wage, by definition.

Whilst anyone who is paid more than minimum wage presumably freely negotiated that level of pay, and their employer deemed them worthy of higher pay.

The fact that the government has to pay in-work benefits means that the wages those employees are being paid by their employers are too low. The government is subsidising employers.

That is nonsense. As an employer the amount I pay you reflects the value of your labour to my business and its profits. That amount has a floor (minimum wage) but not a ceiling. If I pay you more than you are worth it is because the government forces me to do that. The situation is the exact opposite of what you claim.


If an employee can't survive on a particular wage then they will not take that job. In-work benefits allow an employee to accept a job at lower wage since with the in-work benefits it then becomes something which they can survive on. Hence the employer gets away with paying a lower wage and is hence being subsidised by the goverment paying in-work benefits.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351388

Postby Lootman » October 28th, 2020, 3:27 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:The fact that the government has to pay in-work benefits means that the wages those employees are being paid by their employers are too low. The government is subsidising employers.

That is nonsense. As an employer the amount I pay you reflects the value of your labour to my business and its profits. That amount has a floor (minimum wage) but not a ceiling. If I pay you more than you are worth it is because the government forces me to do that. The situation is the exact opposite of what you claim.

If an employee can't survive on a particular wage then they will not take that job. In-work benefits allow an employee to accept a job at lower wage since with the in-work benefits it then becomes something which they can survive on. Hence the employer gets away with paying a lower wage and is hence being subsidised by the goverment paying in-work benefits.

The reason you do not understand this issue is because you are totally redefining how pay is determined. I am using the normal definition i.e. that I pay you based on your value to my enterprise. You are instead treating pay in terms of what you need to live, or what you think you need to live.

It is easy to debunk that idea. Because by that argument I should pay a worker who supports three children more than a worker who only has to support himself. And that is clearly ridiculous.

As an employer, how much you think you need, want or would like to have is not a factor. If the government wants to pander to you by making up the difference then that has nothing to do with me. I would not pay you more in any event. In fact I might fire you rather than pay you more, because you just aren't worth more to me.

You are worth what someone is willing to pay you, and nothing more.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351389

Postby johnhemming » October 28th, 2020, 3:29 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:The fact that the government has to pay in-work benefits means that the wages those employees are being paid by their employers are too low. The government is subsidising employers.

The problem is that there are low paying service industry jobs that inherently have a low income because their customers don't earn a lot of money. If you remove the subsidy to the wages of these jobs they will just disappear.

Other countries approach this in a different way. Italy, for example, has a low paid black economy that does not officially register.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351396

Postby ursaminortaur » October 28th, 2020, 3:40 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:That is nonsense. As an employer the amount I pay you reflects the value of your labour to my business and its profits. That amount has a floor (minimum wage) but not a ceiling. If I pay you more than you are worth it is because the government forces me to do that. The situation is the exact opposite of what you claim.

If an employee can't survive on a particular wage then they will not take that job. In-work benefits allow an employee to accept a job at lower wage since with the in-work benefits it then becomes something which they can survive on. Hence the employer gets away with paying a lower wage and is hence being subsidised by the goverment paying in-work benefits.

The reason you do not understand this issue is because you are totally redefining how pay is determined. I am using the normal definition i.e. that I pay you based on your value to my enterprise. You are instead treating pay in terms of what you need to live, or what you think you need to live.

It is easy to debunk that idea. Because by that argument I should pay a worker who supports three children more than a worker who only has to support himself. And that is clearly ridiculous.

As an employer, how much you think you need, want or would like to have is not a factor. If the government wants to pander to you by making up the difference then that has nothing to do with me. I would not pay you more in any event. In fact I might fire you rather than pay you more, because you just aren't worth more to me.

You are worth what someone is willing to pay you, and nothing more.


Pay is a negotation between employee and employer. Both points of view need to be taken into account NOT just what the employer thinks the employee is worth.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/business-and-consultancy/consulting/assets/documents/Low-Pay-and-In-Work-Poverty.pdf

However,in-work benefits can also create an incentive for employers to create low paid jobs as they are effectively subsidised by tax-payers. Employers may not be in a position to observe whether or not employees can top-up wages through in-work benefits, but the fact that workers are willing to supply labour for low hourly rates of pay makes it feasible for employers to adopt a business model taking advantage of this supply. These distortions can increase the size of the low wage labour market at the expense of higher quality,more productive,work opportunities; impacting not only on individuals but also on productivity, economic growth and inequality.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351452

Postby Lootman » October 28th, 2020, 6:49 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:Pay is a negotation between employee and employer. Both points of view need to be taken into account NOT just what the employer thinks the employee is worth.

And that is how things work. I offer you a wage which reflects the value of your labour to me. And you are free to accept or decline the offer.

What does not affect my offer is the amount of your rent or how many children you have chosen to have.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351473

Postby tjh290633 » October 28th, 2020, 7:46 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:Pay is a negotation between employee and employer. Both points of view need to be taken into account NOT just what the employer thinks the employee is worth.

And that is how things work. I offer you a wage which reflects the value of your labour to me. And you are free to accept or decline the offer.

What does not affect my offer is the amount of your rent or how many children you have chosen to have.

The value of your labour is a function of the number of people who are able and competent to do it. Do you remember the postulated advertisement for a Prime Minister?. If correctly worded there should only be one candidate who fits the specification.

If you advertise a position and get hundreds of applicants, then the pay being offered is too high. If you get none, then you are not offering enough. Minimum pay distorts the market and encourages immigration.

TJH

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351476

Postby Lootman » October 28th, 2020, 7:52 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:Pay is a negotation between employee and employer. Both points of view need to be taken into account NOT just what the employer thinks the employee is worth.

And that is how things work. I offer you a wage which reflects the value of your labour to me. And you are free to accept or decline the offer.

What does not affect my offer is the amount of your rent or how many children you have chosen to have.

The value of your labour is a function of the number of people who are able and competent to do it. Do you remember the postulated advertisement for a Prime Minister?. If correctly worded there should only be one candidate who fits the specification.

If you advertise a position and get hundreds of applicants, then the pay being offered is too high. If you get none, then you are not offering enough. Minimum pay distorts the market and encourages immigration.

This is absolutely true. Back in my landlording days I once conducted a social experiment in which I offered a housing unit in London for about 50% of the prevailing rent. I was inundated with applications. And once the number hit 150 I pulled the ad and re-posted the unit at a market rent.

In any kind of free market you cannot overpay or undercharge, because you will be overwhelmed with demand. Ursa's fantasy of employers overpaying isn't just undesirable, it is actually impossible in practice.

I always think of this when people complain about "low" pay for teachers, nurses, care workers etc., not realising that there are millions of people who can do those jobs. The important thing is not to be good at something, but to be good at something that most people are bad at.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351480

Postby ursaminortaur » October 28th, 2020, 8:13 pm

Lootman wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
Lootman wrote:And that is how things work. I offer you a wage which reflects the value of your labour to me. And you are free to accept or decline the offer.

What does not affect my offer is the amount of your rent or how many children you have chosen to have.

The value of your labour is a function of the number of people who are able and competent to do it. Do you remember the postulated advertisement for a Prime Minister?. If correctly worded there should only be one candidate who fits the specification.

If you advertise a position and get hundreds of applicants, then the pay being offered is too high. If you get none, then you are not offering enough. Minimum pay distorts the market and encourages immigration.

This is absolutely true. Back in my landlording days I once conducted a social experiment in which I offered a housing unit in London for about 50% of the prevailing rent. I was inundated with applications. And once the number hit 150 I pulled the ad and re-posted the unit at a market rent.

In any kind of free market you cannot overpay or undercharge, because you will be overwhelmed with demand. Ursa's fantasy of employers overpaying isn't just undesirable, it is actually impossible in practice.

I always think of this when people complain about "low" pay for teachers, nurses, care workers etc., not realising that there are millions of people who can do those jobs. The important thing is not to be good at something, but to be good at something that most people are bad at.


Who said anything about employers overpaying. I was simply pointing out that in-work benefits distort the market and allow employers to employ workers on lower wages ie the in-work benefits subsidise the employer.

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Re: Our societie's situation.

#351591

Postby BobbyD » October 29th, 2020, 9:29 am

ursaminortaur wrote:Pay is a negotation between employee and employer. Both points of view need to be taken into account NOT just what the employer thinks the employee is worth.


Reminds me of another set of ongoing 'negotiations'. The employer isn't going to pay more than they calculate the employee to be worth to the company no matter how much the employee believes they have a right to a deal.

ursaminortaur wrote:However,in-work benefits can also create an incentive for employers to create low paid jobs as they are effectively subsidised by tax-payers.


Isn't that rather the point? Government lowers unemployment figures and increases levels of state dependency, and all at the tax payers expense. Labour manifesto policy. Far better to remove low paid workers from taxation and peel back in work benefits correspondingly. Bring back Chancellor Ozzy.


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