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Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

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Nimrod103
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370202

Postby Nimrod103 » December 27th, 2020, 8:18 pm

johnhemming wrote:The "Hydrogen Economy" is a very good example as to why Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings should not be involved in picking winners.


I agree it is a dangerous policy for Govts to try to pick winners, yet that is exactly what many Western Govts have been doing by intervening in the energy market, passing laws to subsidize non hydrocarbon energy sources, and banning the use of hydrocarbon energy sources. It will all fall apart when the public wake up to the reality that the future will be cold homes, and only the well off can afford private transport.

servodude
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370220

Postby servodude » December 27th, 2020, 9:50 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The "Hydrogen Economy" is a very good example as to why Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings should not be involved in picking winners.


I agree it is a dangerous policy for Govts to try to pick winners, yet that is exactly what many Western Govts have been doing by intervening in the energy market, passing laws to subsidize non hydrocarbon energy sources, and banning the use of hydrocarbon energy sources. It will all fall apart when the public wake up to the reality that the future will be cold homes, and only the well off can afford private transport.


Do you think there's a long term future in hydrocarbon fuel for electricity?
Do you think there's a long term future for anything without electricity?

Not a fan of governments trying to game markets but I'll give them a pass on trying to maintain a future for electricity generation

-sd

Nimrod103
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370223

Postby Nimrod103 » December 27th, 2020, 9:57 pm

servodude wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The "Hydrogen Economy" is a very good example as to why Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings should not be involved in picking winners.


I agree it is a dangerous policy for Govts to try to pick winners, yet that is exactly what many Western Govts have been doing by intervening in the energy market, passing laws to subsidize non hydrocarbon energy sources, and banning the use of hydrocarbon energy sources. It will all fall apart when the public wake up to the reality that the future will be cold homes, and only the well off can afford private transport.


Do you think there's a long term future in hydrocarbon fuel for electricity?
Do you think there's a long term future for anything without electricity?

Not a fan of governments trying to game markets but I'll give them a pass on trying to maintain a future for electricity generation

-sd


Are you a supporter of widespread fuel poverty?

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370233

Postby Spet0789 » December 27th, 2020, 10:17 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The "Hydrogen Economy" is a very good example as to why Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings should not be involved in picking winners.


I agree it is a dangerous policy for Govts to try to pick winners, yet that is exactly what many Western Govts have been doing by intervening in the energy market, passing laws to subsidize non hydrocarbon energy sources, and banning the use of hydrocarbon energy sources. It will all fall apart when the public wake up to the reality that the future will be cold homes, and only the well off can afford private transport.


Hydrocarbon fuels have material negative externalities. I wouldn’t see the actions you describe as state aid. Rather as an attempt to correct a market failure.

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370238

Postby Nimrod103 » December 27th, 2020, 10:41 pm

Spet0789 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The "Hydrogen Economy" is a very good example as to why Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings should not be involved in picking winners.


I agree it is a dangerous policy for Govts to try to pick winners, yet that is exactly what many Western Govts have been doing by intervening in the energy market, passing laws to subsidize non hydrocarbon energy sources, and banning the use of hydrocarbon energy sources. It will all fall apart when the public wake up to the reality that the future will be cold homes, and only the well off can afford private transport.


Hydrocarbon fuels have material negative externalities. I wouldn’t see the actions you describe as state aid. Rather as an attempt to correct a market failure.


Another supporter of widespread fuel poverty.

tjh290633
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370243

Postby tjh290633 » December 27th, 2020, 11:12 pm

Spet0789 wrote:It's impossible to make a hydrogen tank leak-proof. Leave your hydrogen powered car with a full tank of fuel at the airport, come back in two weeks to an empty tank.

Where did you get that idea from? The gas industry did not have problems with gas leaking from mains or gas holders. Households did not have gas leaking from their mains. People have been handling hydrogen for centuries.

TJH

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370252

Postby Spet0789 » December 28th, 2020, 12:03 am

tjh290633 wrote:
Spet0789 wrote:It's impossible to make a hydrogen tank leak-proof. Leave your hydrogen powered car with a full tank of fuel at the airport, come back in two weeks to an empty tank.

Where did you get that idea from? The gas industry did not have problems with gas leaking from mains or gas holders. Households did not have gas leaking from their mains. People have been handling hydrogen for centuries.

TJH


Natural gas is mainly methane (CH4). It's a far larger molecule. Also, it's usually at low pressures. Most hydrogen applications require very high pressures. At those pressures and given the smaller molecule (H2, one-eighth of the molecular weight), the hydrogen will leak.

Dod101
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370257

Postby Dod101 » December 28th, 2020, 12:57 am

Is this Polite Discussions? Otherwise what has all this to do with an avowed investment site? 'Experts' all.

Dod

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370260

Postby PinkDalek » December 28th, 2020, 2:08 am

O/T

Dod101 wrote:Is this Polite Discussions?


Not quite but this board, 'The Economy', is part of the 'Polite Debate & Discussion' section of TLF: viewforum.php?f=47.

What I don't know is if it fits the:

Polite discussion

The Polite Discussions group is for discussion of subjects people often feel strongly about. To join or leave it, follow the forum name to your profile settings to select the group
, which you recently signed up for, or if that only applies to 'Polite Discussions' itself. The wording suggests all three boards are in the group.

I'll self-report this post, merely out of interest, and hope a Mod may be able to respond here on 'The Economy'. If they are all under the sign-up procedure, I think that italicised part should be amended to Polite Debate & Discussion etc.
Moderator Message:
Only the Polite Discussion Board (singular) requires sign-up.
The remainder of the Polite Debate & Discussion section is visible to all.
The word "group" is used by the phpBB access control on the User Control Panel.
The "group" contains one board.
Polite Debate & Discussion is not a "group" (in phpBB terminology). Just a convenient section of the site. :|
Rather a confusion of phpBB terminology I accept.
Hope this helps. Gryffron 15-jan-21

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370266

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » December 28th, 2020, 7:36 am

I more had in mind

"Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?"

than

1. a discussion of the future of the hydrogen economy, which I posed as one example out of many
2. the ability of Dom and Boris, to personally select the industries to be State Aid beneficiaries
3. whether this thread needs to in PD, or whether will are to continue debating a 4.5 year old referendum result

In other words if we can financially assist, where sensible, industries further than those of the remaining EU states, can we put ourselves ahead and grow our economy in a way similar to certain Asian countries? Perhaps we can't, perhaps there are other barriers in the way, e.g. the thousands of workers stuck in tax credit/poverty traps....should money be sucked out of the Welfare State and redirected into subsidies for industries, maybe that would help. I'm low on knowledge of how economies function. I don't know, but was curious as to whether we now had the tools to do something more adventurous with the country. Perhaps we lack the political will?

Matt

Dod101
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370294

Postby Dod101 » December 28th, 2020, 9:31 am

I sympathise with TheMotorcycleBoy but it seems to be the nature of these semi political topics. I gave my response some posts back.

Dod

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370304

Postby dspp » December 28th, 2020, 9:58 am

PinkDalek wrote:O/T

Dod101 wrote:Is this Polite Discussions?


Not quite but this board, 'The Economy', is part of the 'Polite Debate & Discussion' section of TLF: viewforum.php?f=47.

What I don't know is if it fits the:

Polite discussion

The Polite Discussions group is for discussion of subjects people often feel strongly about. To join or leave it, follow the forum name to your profile settings to select the group
, which you recently signed up for, or if that only applies to 'Polite Discussions' itself. The wording suggests all three boards are in the group.

I'll self-report this post, merely out of interest, and hope a Mod may be able to respond here on 'The Economy'. If they are all under the sign-up procedure, I think that italicised part should be amended to Polite Debate & Discussion etc.


The Economy is a subset of Polite Debate & Discussion, in much the same way that PPE is delivered to aspiring young things in the hope that they might realise the connections. As such, here on TLF, the same rules apply as for any other part of the PD dungeons, i.e. no "thanks" button, sign-up required, and much more rough-and-tumble in the debate but still within the limitations of polite discourse.

regards, dspp

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370307

Postby dspp » December 28th, 2020, 10:03 am

Spet0789 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
Spet0789 wrote:It's impossible to make a hydrogen tank leak-proof. Leave your hydrogen powered car with a full tank of fuel at the airport, come back in two weeks to an empty tank.

Where did you get that idea from? The gas industry did not have problems with gas leaking from mains or gas holders. Households did not have gas leaking from their mains. People have been handling hydrogen for centuries.

TJH


Natural gas is mainly methane (CH4). It's a far larger molecule. Also, it's usually at low pressures. Most hydrogen applications require very high pressures. At those pressures and given the smaller molecule (H2, one-eighth of the molecular weight), the hydrogen will leak.


Re hydrogen properties: Well explained spet. I'm not sure that the point was understood mind you ..... because it keeps on recurring. As you indicate, hydrogen is not "just another gas", it is a very much more expensive and difficult gas and what is more it is one that already has dramatically superior alternatives in almost all applications and almost all locations.

Re State Aid : I am yet to be convinced that
a) the proposed EU-UK deal terms allow the UK to do any more than was already permitted within the EU; and
b) that the UK state has the necessary competence to make sensible use of even what was already permitted within the EU;
so
c) I tend to think that UK internal State Aid is a spivs charter for their rentier luvvers.

regards, dspp

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370309

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » December 28th, 2020, 10:07 am

Dod101 wrote:I sympathise with TheMotorcycleBoy but it seems to be the nature of these semi political topics. I gave my response some posts back.

Dod

It is a shame, especially as it's clear that many here are very intelligent. I guess no one really has the time to get underneath the surface of the debate. Myself included.

Matt

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370320

Postby tjh290633 » December 28th, 2020, 10:27 am

Spet0789 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
Spet0789 wrote:It's impossible to make a hydrogen tank leak-proof. Leave your hydrogen powered car with a full tank of fuel at the airport, come back in two weeks to an empty tank.

Where did you get that idea from? The gas industry did not have problems with gas leaking from mains or gas holders. Households did not have gas leaking from their mains. People have been handling hydrogen for centuries.

TJH


Natural gas is mainly methane (CH4). It's a far larger molecule. Also, it's usually at low pressures. Most hydrogen applications require very high pressures. At those pressures and given the smaller molecule (H2, one-eighth of the molecular weight), the hydrogen will leak.

I am not talking about Natural Gas. I was referring to Town's Gas, either made by carbonising coal or by the carburetted water gas process. You might like to educate yourself by looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas where you will find:

The composition of coal gas varied according to the type of coal and the temperature of carbonisation. Typical figures were:

hydrogen 50%
methane 35%
carbon monoxide 10%
ethylene 5%


Water Gas is a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, produced by the reaction C+H20=>CO +H2, i.e. equimolecular proportions, and was used for peak demand, mixed with coal gas. As you can see, both are 50% hydrogen.

TJH

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370323

Postby Spet0789 » December 28th, 2020, 10:35 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I sympathise with TheMotorcycleBoy but it seems to be the nature of these semi political topics. I gave my response some posts back.

Dod

It is a shame, especially as it's clear that many here are very intelligent. I guess no one really has the time to get underneath the surface of the debate. Myself included.

Matt


I think the debate here has highlighted some of the issues.

This is a classic question of political economy. It boils down to whether you think the government of the day (whoever that is) can make good decisions about which industries to support.

Personally, I don’t.

As I said before, in my view the best thing the government can do is to incentivise private capital to invest through tax breaks or co-investment, and ensure that universities and companies can easily hire the right global talent.

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370354

Postby dealtn » December 28th, 2020, 11:27 am

dspp wrote:The Economy is a subset of Polite Debate & Discussion, in much the same way that PPE is delivered to aspiring young things in the hope that they might realise the connections. As such, here on TLF, the same rules apply as for any other part of the PD dungeons, i.e. no "thanks" button, sign-up required, and much more rough-and-tumble in the debate but still within the limitations of polite discourse.

regards, dspp


I have deliberately not signed up for Polite Discussions - no intention of descending there. But I am able to view, and contribute here, and don't see "The Economy" in the same way at all.

Am I the exception? What makes you think this Board is, or should be, "sign up required" (please don't change it!)?

dspp
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370355

Postby dspp » December 28th, 2020, 11:31 am

dealtn wrote:
dspp wrote:The Economy is a subset of Polite Debate & Discussion, in much the same way that PPE is delivered to aspiring young things in the hope that they might realise the connections. As such, here on TLF, the same rules apply as for any other part of the PD dungeons, i.e. no "thanks" button, sign-up required, and much more rough-and-tumble in the debate but still within the limitations of polite discourse.

regards, dspp


I have deliberately not signed up for Polite Discussions - no intention of descending there. But I am able to view, and contribute here, and don't see "The Economy" in the same way at all.

Am I the exception? What makes you think this Board is, or should be, "sign up required" (please don't change it!)?


You are not the exception - I am wrong on that point, please excuse my memory and/or stupidity. However if things were to descend to the levels seen on PD then no doubt posts/threads would get relocated !

regards, dspp

Spet0789
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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370361

Postby Spet0789 » December 28th, 2020, 11:39 am

tjh290633 wrote:
Spet0789 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Where did you get that idea from? The gas industry did not have problems with gas leaking from mains or gas holders. Households did not have gas leaking from their mains. People have been handling hydrogen for centuries.

TJH


Natural gas is mainly methane (CH4). It's a far larger molecule. Also, it's usually at low pressures. Most hydrogen applications require very high pressures. At those pressures and given the smaller molecule (H2, one-eighth of the molecular weight), the hydrogen will leak.

I am not talking about Natural Gas. I was referring to Town's Gas, either made by carbonising coal or by the carburetted water gas process. You might like to educate yourself by looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas where you will find:

The composition of coal gas varied according to the type of coal and the temperature of carbonisation. Typical figures were:

hydrogen 50%
methane 35%
carbon monoxide 10%
ethylene 5%


Water Gas is a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, produced by the reaction C+H20=>CO +H2, i.e. equimolecular proportions, and was used for peak demand, mixed with coal gas. As you can see, both are 50% hydrogen.

TJH


Thanks for the Wikipedia link.

I’m not sure that coal gas (which I was aware of) is what most people have in mind when they think of the modern hydrogen economy. As I said, the problems with leaks arise when hydrogen is at higher pressures. Because of its low specific energy, most of the modern applications do require these pressures.

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Re: Will the State Aid rules forged in the recent Brexit deal boost UK PLC Ltd?

#370364

Postby dealtn » December 28th, 2020, 11:41 am

dspp wrote:
dealtn wrote:
dspp wrote:The Economy is a subset of Polite Debate & Discussion, in much the same way that PPE is delivered to aspiring young things in the hope that they might realise the connections. As such, here on TLF, the same rules apply as for any other part of the PD dungeons, i.e. no "thanks" button, sign-up required, and much more rough-and-tumble in the debate but still within the limitations of polite discourse.

regards, dspp


I have deliberately not signed up for Polite Discussions - no intention of descending there. But I am able to view, and contribute here, and don't see "The Economy" in the same way at all.

Am I the exception? What makes you think this Board is, or should be, "sign up required" (please don't change it!)?


You are not the exception - I am wrong on that point, please excuse my memory and/or stupidity. However if things were to descend to the levels seen on PD then no doubt posts/threads would get relocated !

regards, dspp


Thank you, and apologies for the "aside". I have no problem with threads/posts being reported/deleted/relocated. Just don't move the Board under the same umbrella as PD.


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