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Is recession looming?

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Dod101
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Re: Is recession looming?

#507797

Postby Dod101 » June 17th, 2022, 6:44 am

AWOL wrote:Sadly i was toying with the idea of moving from an adventurous all equity portfolio to a balanced one when this all kicked off. I am now wondering if i await a rally or reduce my equities before the next leg of the bear market. I am not smart enough to be able to market time so i end up spending a lot of time thinking but not acting.


If a balanced one is going to reduce the risk of loss then that could make sense. The trouble is that most other asset classes or not doing much better.

I am like tjh in this and simply do nothing, or very little anyway. Occasionally I might move to less adventurous equities to less adventurous ones but then how do you recognise them anyway?. Just keep thinking.

Dod

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507806

Postby AWOL » June 17th, 2022, 7:34 am

I feel a lot better after plotting this year's returns for Lifestrategy 80, 60, and MSCI World which is close enough to my portfolio. The vanguard funds represent diversified portfolios and did worse than the pure global equity over a one year period.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507816

Postby Steveam » June 17th, 2022, 8:12 am

I will do very much as tjh and Dod … that is very little. I will pull my horns in a little but nothing particularly noticeable.

Most of my income comes from my portfolios and although there is considerable surplus income I’m concerned the inflation and recession could combine (stagflation) to reduce my income and push up my costs. I have very little inflation proofed income (state pension which I deferred for some years).

I’m pretty confident but might be whistling past the graveyard.

Best wishes,

Steve

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507819

Postby dealtn » June 17th, 2022, 8:22 am

Tara wrote:
Down 35%-40% for the UK market does not seem unreasonable.

And I would not be surprised to see UK house prices heading in the same direction.


Can you explain your thinking on why a FTSE at around 4,200-4,500 a level not seen for 9 years in nominal terms, or one not seen since the start of the current RPI Index in 1987 in real terms, is reasonable please?

SalvorHardin
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Re: Is recession looming?

#507826

Postby SalvorHardin » June 17th, 2022, 8:59 am

Dod101 wrote:I confess not to understand how GDP is calculated but if stopping mass testing for Covid reduces GDP (and yet we set so much store by it) then it is time the definition was changed. At a time of big labour shortages, in my naive view of life I would have thought releasing people from non productive jobs would have been a positive. Instead it seems to be a sign of a looming recession.

GDP is a highly flawed measure of the economy. Stopped mass testing for the coronavirus caused GDP to fall because by definition government spending adds to GDP. So cutting a major item of state spending will cut GDP.

IMHO there's probably going to be a recession according to GDP, but there will be a partially or fully offsetting increase in domestic economic output to compensate (DIY projects, substituting eating in for eating out, etc.). Unfortunately domestic production doesn't appear in the GDP figures and there will be major policy errors as a result. As to investments, the recession is being priced in now (and may already be in the price).

My investments; I've trimmed a few holdings and put most of the proceeds into recession-resistant stuff such as alcohol (Diageo), farmland and Canadian banks, plus a small punt on Patria Investments which essentially is a South American version of Blackstone. I currently have 30 months worth of expenses on deposit and will treat most of this as money to be invested if anything appropriate appears on my investment radar.

Anyway, here's a bit about how flawed GDP is as a measure of the economy. This might be of interest to some (I wrote this recently in an email to a friend, the key bits are cut and pasted here).

GDp is a highly flawed measure of the economy. A major contributor to the recent fall in GDP was that the government stopped mass testing for the coronavirus will cause GDP to fall. By definition government spending adds to GDP, so cutting a major item of state spending will cut GDP. It matters not how effective the spending is (at least initially, because there will be knock-on effect which appear in later GDP calculations). If the money had instead been spent on paying people to dig holes and build buildings, then then paying them to fill in the same hole and burn down the buildings then GDP would not have fallen.

The Soviet Union became an expert at producing things which ended up in the GDP statistics, yet were of little or no economic use. I suspect that China has been doing much of the same, which is being revealed with a series of local bank runs in China. This is receiving very little attention in the western media. Reported last week:

"There’s a run on Chinese banks and it’s being ignored by the world"
https://www.asiamarkets.com/chinese-banks-run/

Unfortunately GDP dominates the macroeconomic conversation, as e politicians latched onto it as a way of making themselves look good. GDP measures what can be measured and what can be measured doesn't exist for GDp purposes. But because a lot of economic activity cannot be measured, or it's too much hard work to estimate it, GDP underestimates the total economic output by a substantial amount.

When it comes to domestic production (what the economist Gary Becker called "Z-Goods"), because domestic output is not a monetary transaction it does not add to GDP. If I pay you to do some work for me and then you pay me to do some work for you then this adds to GDP. But if we both do the work ourselves then this does not add to GDP. The end product is the same, yet the contribution to GDP isn't.

GDP is hopeless when dealing with product improvements, which don't appear in the statistics unless the improvement results in a change in price. A better product at a lower price is good for consumers but very bad for GDP as it causes GDP to fall. GDP is highly flawed when measuring inventories, intermediate goods and other work-in-progress (link below, it's a heavy bit of reading). Many "free" internet services, such as Facebook and Google Search, contribute nothing to the GDP in themselves because the user doesn't pay with money (they pay with data).

"Significant flaws in how GDP is measured, however, not only make it a misleading indicator, but have led to erroneous conclusions about what makes the economy tick. Such errors lead to extremely costly and damaging public policies."
https://mises.org/wire/why-bad-gdp-metrics-lead-bad-policy

"GDP purports to measure economic activity while largely divorcing itself from the quality, profitability, depth, breadth, improvement, advancement, and rationalization of goods and services provided."
https://mises.org/library/how-gdp-metrics-distort-our-view-economy

Overseas trade is also a bit weird. Ireland in particular has serious problems with its GDP calculations because it includes a huge amount of transactions between the subsidiaries of multinationals which don't turn up in the Irish domestic economy. It's known as "Leprechaun Economics" and is largely responsible for making lots of people think that the Irish are far better off then they really are.

"The “real feel” in the Irish economy has never quite matched the eye-watering growth numbers that tumble out each year."
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/we-re-not-as-rich-as-we-have-been-told-to-think-we-are-1.4476247

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507841

Postby 77ss » June 17th, 2022, 9:32 am

Steveam wrote:I will do very much as tjh and Dod …

Steve


That is my approach too. Recession? Inflation? Interest rates?

I am making no significant changes because of these factors. Perhaps I am looking a bit more carefully at debt than I have in recent years.

A falling market? I have no idea how far it will fall, but whenever I have sufficient spare cash (from unspent dividends mainly) I am using it to top up my existing holdings - just with more of a tilt towards dividends than usual. Pound-cost averaging if you like.

It looks as though cash may well lose about 10% of its value over the next year, so topping up a decent dividend payer seems sensible to me.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507843

Postby BT63 » June 17th, 2022, 9:35 am

dealtn wrote:
Tara wrote:
Down 35%-40% for the UK market does not seem unreasonable.

And I would not be surprised to see UK house prices heading in the same direction.


Can you explain your thinking on why a FTSE at around 4,200-4,500 a level not seen for 9 years in nominal terms, or one not seen since the start of the current RPI Index in 1987 in real terms, is reasonable please?


I'll explain my thinking.....
The US is in for a very hard landing.
The shockwaves will ripple across the world, affecting other economies. The US stock markets were very overvalued and their probable large decline will pull down most other stock markets (the old phrase used to be: 'when Wall Street sneezes, FTSE catches a cold').

A very long term semi-log graph of the FTSE 250 (the only major UK index to make much progress for many years) shows a nice trend with multi-decade support (which held in 2003 and again in 2008/9 - and we're heading for something comparable) now ~15000 which would make a 38% decline from the peak last year.

In the case of the US markets, bubbles usually go back to the level where they began. In the case of the S&P500, that was in 2017 around 2200 which would be a 55% decline from the S&P's peak last year and in line with the nasty bears of 2000-03 and 2007-09.

But I should clarify that I think the first major wave down of this bear is almost complete and we should expect a significant bounce soon before a second selling wave arrives probably in the autumn, then another bear rally, then a final, third wave down to the ultimate lows in about a year's time.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507856

Postby AWOL » June 17th, 2022, 10:17 am

Does anyone else find that trading in response to events often leads to poor returns?

I will admit to some luck in the past but I suspect that a monkey with a dart board would do just as well and that confirmation bias makes me feel more successful than I am. I reckon chance plays more of a role than I would like to imagine. That's why I often worry about events before being decisively inactive.

I just wish I would stop having ideas. Current ones are switch PBs to TP05 and switch from global tracker to heavily discounted ITs if there is a fall to >30% below market peak.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507947

Postby Dod101 » June 17th, 2022, 5:17 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I confess not to understand how GDP is calculated but if stopping mass testing for Covid reduces GDP (and yet we set so much store by it) then it is time the definition was changed. At a time of big labour shortages, in my naive view of life I would have thought releasing people from non productive jobs would have been a positive. Instead it seems to be a sign of a looming recession.

GDP is a highly flawed measure of the economy. Stopped mass testing for the coronavirus caused GDP to fall because by definition government spending adds to GDP. So cutting a major item of state spending will cut GDP.

IMHO there's probably going to be a recession according to GDP, but there will be a partially or fully offsetting increase in domestic economic output to compensate (DIY projects, substituting eating in for eating out, etc.). Unfortunately domestic production doesn't appear in the GDP figures and there will be major policy errors as a result. As to investments, the recession is being priced in now (and may already be in the price).

My investments; I've trimmed a few holdings and put most of the proceeds into recession-resistant stuff such as alcohol (Diageo), farmland and Canadian banks, plus a small punt on Patria Investments which essentially is a South American version of Blackstone. I currently have 30 months worth of expenses on deposit and will treat most of this as money to be invested if anything appropriate appears on my investment radar.

Anyway, here's a bit about how flawed GDP is as a measure of the economy. This might be of interest to some (I wrote this recently in an email to a friend, the key bits are cut and pasted here).

GDp is a highly flawed measure of the economy. A major contributor to the recent fall in GDP was that the government stopped mass testing for the coronavirus will cause GDP to fall. By definition government spending adds to GDP, so cutting a major item of state spending will cut GDP. It matters not how effective the spending is (at least initially, because there will be knock-on effect which appear in later GDP calculations). If the money had instead been spent on paying people to dig holes and build buildings, then then paying them to fill in the same hole and burn down the buildings then GDP would not have fallen.

The Soviet Union became an expert at producing things which ended up in the GDP statistics, yet were of little or no economic use. I suspect that China has been doing much of the same, which is being revealed with a series of local bank runs in China. This is receiving very little attention in the western media. Reported last week:

"There’s a run on Chinese banks and it’s being ignored by the world"
https://www.asiamarkets.com/chinese-banks-run/

Unfortunately GDP dominates the macroeconomic conversation, as e politicians latched onto it as a way of making themselves look good. GDP measures what can be measured and what can be measured doesn't exist for GDp purposes. But because a lot of economic activity cannot be measured, or it's too much hard work to estimate it, GDP underestimates the total economic output by a substantial amount.

When it comes to domestic production (what the economist Gary Becker called "Z-Goods"), because domestic output is not a monetary transaction it does not add to GDP. If I pay you to do some work for me and then you pay me to do some work for you then this adds to GDP. But if we both do the work ourselves then this does not add to GDP. The end product is the same, yet the contribution to GDP isn't.

GDP is hopeless when dealing with product improvements, which don't appear in the statistics unless the improvement results in a change in price. A better product at a lower price is good for consumers but very bad for GDP as it causes GDP to fall. GDP is highly flawed when measuring inventories, intermediate goods and other work-in-progress (link below, it's a heavy bit of reading). Many "free" internet services, such as Facebook and Google Search, contribute nothing to the GDP in themselves because the user doesn't pay with money (they pay with data).

"Significant flaws in how GDP is measured, however, not only make it a misleading indicator, but have led to erroneous conclusions about what makes the economy tick. Such errors lead to extremely costly and damaging public policies."
https://mises.org/wire/why-bad-gdp-metrics-lead-bad-policy

"GDP purports to measure economic activity while largely divorcing itself from the quality, profitability, depth, breadth, improvement, advancement, and rationalization of goods and services provided."
https://mises.org/library/how-gdp-metrics-distort-our-view-economy

Overseas trade is also a bit weird. Ireland in particular has serious problems with its GDP calculations because it includes a huge amount of transactions between the subsidiaries of multinationals which don't turn up in the Irish domestic economy. It's known as "Leprechaun Economics" and is largely responsible for making lots of people think that the Irish are far better off then they really are.

"The “real feel” in the Irish economy has never quite matched the eye-watering growth numbers that tumble out each year."
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/we-re-not-as-rich-as-we-have-been-told-to-think-we-are-1.4476247


Thanks for all of that which pretty well confirms my simple thinking. Must talk sometime to a grand daughter who is about to embark on her final year at university studying for an economics degree!

Dod

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507950

Postby BT63 » June 17th, 2022, 5:42 pm

AWOL wrote:Does anyone else find that trading in response to events often leads to poor returns?


Yes, either find clues to anticipate market turns or stay invested all the time in a suitably diverse portfolio (Harry Browne's Permanent Portfolio could be a good start point) with monthly addition of new cash from surplus income.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507951

Postby Steveam » June 17th, 2022, 5:47 pm

Perhaps having demolished GDP we could do the same exercise on RPI (a bad measure of anything!)

Best wishes,

Steve

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507960

Postby Nimrod103 » June 17th, 2022, 6:34 pm

Dod101 wrote:Thanks for all of that which pretty well confirms my simple thinking. Must talk sometime to a grand daughter who is about to embark on her final year at university studying for an economics degree!

Dod


I think I am right in saying that countries measure GDP is subtly different ways, that sometimes have big effects. This came up during lockdown. As I recall the UK measures actual output, so as teachers cut back their teaching hours to zoom lessons, so their GDP shrank. But most EU countries measured teaching output in terms of salaries paid, which stayed constant throughout the epidemic. Quite dangerous to compare GDP in different countries without allowing for things like that.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507978

Postby Walkeia » June 17th, 2022, 7:43 pm

yes I think a recession is looming; I do feel there is a 'sense' in the economic air when your daily chats are dominated by the rise in mortgage rates, energy bills, food prices and the cost of going abroad at the moment. After this week I believe central banks are now in the mood to do whatever it takes to get inflation down - Fed 75bp, BoE signalling perhaps 50bp rises next few meetings and even the SNB hiking rates.. I continue to invest money as we fall into global stock ETFs;

From brief googling: S&P down 23% ytd

All for the SPX since World War II:

average high pre- to bottom of a recession ~35%
average return during a recession -8%
average time from market high to start of recession: 7 months
average low: 4 months prior to the end of the recession
average length of recession: 10 months

If we were to have an 'average' recession based on the above stats. Market high was early Jan so this would argue when the dust has settled and the economists date the recession it will start in the very near future. The recession would last until the spring of next year and global stocks would have another 12% to fall (SPX 3200 area) just after the new year.

To be clear; I don't 'trade' the above; I just feel history is a good guide and at this juncture history would argue that two thirds of the damage is done and there may be some good opportunities to place money into equities over the coming year.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507981

Postby Walkeia » June 17th, 2022, 8:01 pm

dealtn wrote:
Tara wrote:
Down 35%-40% for the UK market does not seem unreasonable.

And I would not be surprised to see UK house prices heading in the same direction.


Can you explain your thinking on why a FTSE at around 4,200-4,500 a level not seen for 9 years in nominal terms, or one not seen since the start of the current RPI Index in 1987 in real terms, is reasonable please?


A recession of this magnitude would see a giant policy response - interest rates back to zero and the restarting of QE; the inflation problem would take care of itself given the negative wealth effect. I don't see a basis for this amount of wealth destruction - especially when one of the key drivers is monetary policy expectations (central banks have more hikes priced into markets than they have yet delivered). These can reprice incredibly quickly should economic data require.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507984

Postby Nimrod103 » June 17th, 2022, 8:07 pm

Walkeia wrote:yes I think a recession is looming; I do feel there is a 'sense' in the economic air when your daily chats are dominated by the rise in mortgage rates, energy bills, food prices and the cost of going abroad at the moment. After this week I believe central banks are now in the mood to do whatever it takes to get inflation down - Fed 75bp, BoE signalling perhaps 50bp rises next few meetings and even the SNB hiking rates.. I continue to invest money as we fall into global stock ETFs;

From brief googling: S&P down 23% ytd

All for the SPX since World War II:

average high pre- to bottom of a recession ~35%
average return during a recession -8%
average time from market high to start of recession: 7 months
average low: 4 months prior to the end of the recession
average length of recession: 10 months

If we were to have an 'average' recession based on the above stats. Market high was early Jan so this would argue when the dust has settled and the economists date the recession it will start in the very near future. The recession would last until the spring of next year and global stocks would have another 12% to fall (SPX 3200 area) just after the new year.

To be clear; I don't 'trade' the above; I just feel history is a good guide and at this juncture history would argue that two thirds of the damage is done and there may be some good opportunities to place money into equities over the coming year.


Your scenario suggests that there is not much need for further big interest rate rises. Is there a danger that the BoE will drive a deeper recession by their enthusiasm for more and higher interest rate rises to clamp down on inflation?

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Re: Is recession looming?

#507999

Postby AWOL » June 17th, 2022, 10:15 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Your scenario suggests that there is not much need for further big interest rate rises. Is there a danger that the BoE will drive a deeper recession by their enthusiasm for more and higher interest rate rises to clamp down on inflation?


Yes but a recession could be less damaging than inflation taking hold. Inflation becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. A feedback loop. That results in things like a wave inflation spiral. Inflation also can lead to reduced GDP/output by resulting in increased industrial action as employers try to control their wage bill at a time where energy and materials costs are going up. My wife's union is recommending rejecting a 5% pay offer at the moment. Based on prior firm this is usually followed by a ballot for industrial action.

The MPC has been more supportive of economic growth, with greater risk of inflation running out of control, compared to the Fed. Returning to your original question the outcomes include a soft landing, hard landimg, and/or loss of control of inflation.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#508002

Postby Nimrod103 » June 17th, 2022, 10:22 pm

AWOL wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Your scenario suggests that there is not much need for further big interest rate rises. Is there a danger that the BoE will drive a deeper recession by their enthusiasm for more and higher interest rate rises to clamp down on inflation?


Yes but a recession could be less damaging than inflation taking hold. Inflation becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. A feedback loop. That results in things like a wave inflation spiral. Inflation also can lead to reduced GDP/output by resulting in increased industrial action as employers try to control their wage bill at a time where energy and materials costs are going up. My wife's union is recommending rejecting a 5% pay offer at the moment. Based on prior firm this is usually followed by a ballot for industrial action.

The MPC has been more supportive of economic growth, with greater risk of inflation running out of control, compared to the Fed. Returning to your original question the outcomes include a soft landing, hard landimg, and/or loss of control of inflation.


Yes, but the way I read Walkeia's post, he/she seems to be suggesting that poverty caused by the imminent recession will bear down on inflation just as much, if not more, than increased interest rates.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#508008

Postby AWOL » June 17th, 2022, 10:57 pm

The MPC are hoping that inflation will be self limiting hence their restraint however retail data isn't supportive of this stance. Let's hope this isn't 1974 all over again. In real terms inflation is worse. Interest rates were much higher then.

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Re: Is recession looming?

#508011

Postby tjh290633 » June 17th, 2022, 11:16 pm

AWOL wrote:The MPC are hoping that inflation will be self limiting hence their restraint however retail data isn't supportive of this stance. Let's hope this isn't 1974 all over again. In real terms inflation is worse. Interest rates were much higher then.

Interest rates should never have been this low. In the past, with similar rates of inflation, we would have seen Base Rate at a level not far off the rate of inflation. Rises always were at least +0.5%, while reductions were always -0.25%. At times of crisis a larger increase might be appropriate, like +1%. The MPC has forgotten what inflation looked like. They have the means of control in their hands. They need to use it.

Banks (and the Gilt market) used to pay interest rates which reflected inflation. 15.5% was available back in the 1970s and 80s. I bought T93 13.75% for my mother-in-law in 1975, and T98 15.5% in 1986. Where are comparable gilts now?

TJH

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Re: Is recession looming?

#508031

Postby AWOL » June 18th, 2022, 7:38 am

https://www.ft.com/content/c2049009-e38 ... d3d4770b47 / "The global economy is not going to be calmer any time soon"

The FT Editorial Board article linked above summarises things nicely describing how the Fed is setting rates with a fairly benign base case of continued growth versus the BoE facing economic stagnation regardless therefore settling for a lower rise.


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