How much more can the UK taxpayer take ?

[scotview]

As a pensioner, paying a significant amount of tax from my pension and net income Council Tax, I'm just wondering how much more the taxpayer can be expected to pay, especially if a Labour Government gets into power.

I'm not badly off but I have always budgeted and planned for the position I am in now. But any further punitive tax rises will totally change my long term pension budgeting outlook. Maybe SIPP and ISA beneficiaries will soon be feeling the cold chill too.

The same goes for folkes on PAYE salaries.

Seems to be getting harder and harder......... whither the future for Tax rake off with so many revenue demands ?

Thanks

[1nvest]

Throughout the whole of the 18th and 19th centuries, income tax was seen as an unacceptable governmental intrusion into citizens’ private affairs and was even a threat to personal liberty. Up to WW2 and only around 4 million families paid tax. People freely nowadays share how much interest they earn on their savings with the taxman, and other details of their wealth level and locations. 18th/19th century and they'd be told it was their own wealth and no one else's business as to how much and where that was. Worse still is that with data storage and government history of losing data is that what you enter into self assessment could at any time potentially be lost/shared.

Nowadays people are accepting loss of liberties, living in a open prison where all their money, actions, movements etc. are visible by the state. Under such conditions its not your wealth/life, but just a state loan, open to being partially or fully confiscated at any time.

From what I see there is no discontent and as such further loss of freedoms and wealth are inevitable. Basic rate taxation have risen to near 50% in the past, and I suspect Council Taxes could easily double. So in answer to your question ... quite a lot more.

A downside is that as such occurs, so the 1% that pay a third of the tax take will flight the country, leaving the remainder having to pay 50% more in taxes just to fill that hole.

[1nvest]

Really with AI on the horizon, the benefits should be shared around, not retained by a few (very very wealthy individuals).

Presently the UK doesn't tax dividends (0% dividend withholding taxes), unlike America that levies a 30% rate (reduced to 15% for Brits who register with the US (W8BEN)).

Other countries can often freely export to the UK, so for example when we were in the EU and subsidising competitors, they could provide the same goods/services for less, resulting in the demise of British products/services.

Return to the older ways, no income tax, taxes instead on imports and exports, sales/businesses taxation and ...

2022 720Bn HMRC tax take

2Tn FT100 stock paying 4% dividends = 80Bn in dividends, apply a 25% withholding tax = 20Bn.
1Tn of imports/exports taxed at 25% = 250Bn
2Tn of GDP taxed at 25% = 500Bn
770Bn in total

But businesses/money didn't like that sort of LT/KK idea, ejected them quickly to instate Sunak whose a closet Socialist in a party that has increased the UK debt five fold since it took office (from 500Bn to 2500Bn, much of which was simply wasted). Labour are only inclined to increase such Socialism. Businesses - who bribe MP's, prefer people working as slaves, but where modern day slaves are given enough (debatable) to feed/clothe/shelter themselves rather than their master having to do such, as that yields greater profits for those businesses.

[dealtn]

Presently the UK doesn't tax dividends (0% dividend withholding taxes), unlike America that levies a 30% rate (reduced to 15% for Brits who register with the US (W8BEN)).

Corporate earnings are taxed, as is dividend income.

[1nvest]

Sunak tore up the NI arrangement that took much effort by BJ to establish (got the ball into the EU's court) within weeks of becoming PM (3 months or so) that totally took the ball back from the EU and highly favours businesses, costs the people. So whilst a closet socialist that's only in the sense of the state, not the people. His familiarity with real people/life is very low.

[1nvest]

Presently the UK doesn't apply dividend withholding tax tax dividends (0% dividend withholding taxes), unlike America that levies a 30% rate (reduced to 15% for Brits who register with the US (W8BEN)).

Corporate earnings are taxed, as is dividend income.

[scrumpyjack]

People are much more mobile, internationally, now than they were in my youth, particularly the affluent.
The problem with raising significantly more in taxation is that it would not take many of those affluent moving elsewhere to offset the higher tax rates and result in a lower overall tax take and a further impoverishment of the UK.

Rachel Reeves appears to understand this and has said they will seek to improve the performance of the economy.
We will see next year, perhaps, and sadly!

[Nimrod103]

As a pensioner, paying a significant amount of tax from my pension and net income Council Tax, I'm just wondering how much more the taxpayer can be expected to pay, especially if a Labour Government gets into power.

I'm not badly off but I have always budgeted and planned for the position I am in now. But any further punitive tax rises will totally change my long term pension budgeting outlook. Maybe SIPP and ISA beneficiaries will soon be feeling the cold chill too.

The same goes for folkes on PAYE salaries.

Seems to be getting harder and harder......... whither the future for Tax rake off with so many revenue demands ?

Thanks

Interesting question. It is not only the obvious increased tax take, but also subtle rises due to frozen thresholds. And don't forget inflation - the only pensioners fully protected against inflation are ex civil servants and the like. My pensions are uprated up to 5% so I have lost 5% of my spending power to inflation alone this year.

On the opposite side my own reaction ishas been to review my life and cut down "unnecessary" expenditure, and if I am doing it, I presume a lot of others are doing the same. I find I don't need to spend much to lead an enjoyable life, and my discretionary expenditure has shrunk considerably. I would not be investing in consumer goods, hospitality or travel/holiday related companies at the present time.

[Mike4]

Sunak tore up the NI arrangement that took much effort by BJ to establish (got the ball into the EU's court) within weeks of becoming PM (3 months or so) that totally took the ball back from the EU and highly favours businesses, costs the people. So whilst a closet socialist that's only in the sense of the state, not the people. His familiarity with real people/life is very low.

Indeed. Wasn't there a video doing the rounds of him in a petrol station pretending to be a man of the people, but unable to fill the car because having never done it before, he didn't know how?

[88V8]

Sunak.... His familiarity with real people/life is very low.

Indeed. Wasn't there a video doing the rounds of him in a petrol station pretending to be a man of the people, but unable to fill the car because having never done it before, he didn't know how?

I voted for Truss... yeah, OK.... because he's a sitting target for the 'rich and out of touch' label come election time.

Also he looked rather pleading when he was speaking at hustings.

He didn't impress me as a potential election winner or someone who would take tough choices, always easier to tighten the tax screw than tell people they can't have something or other.

V8

[Mike4]

Indeed. Wasn't there a video doing the rounds of him in a petrol station pretending to be a man of the people, but unable to fill the car because having never done it before, he didn't know how?

I voted for Truss... yeah, OK.... because he's a sitting target for the 'rich and out of touch' label come election time.

Also he looked rather pleading when he was speaking at hustings.

He didn't impress me as a potential election winner or someone who would take tough choices, always easier to tighten the tax screw than tell people they can't have something or other.

V8

Me too. His profligacy as Chancellor with his furlough and "Eat Out to Spread it About" schemes horrified me. And never mind the billions squandered on un-checked business support loans. He always seemed to take the popular option and hang the expense.

[1nvest]

Indeed. Wasn't there a video doing the rounds of him in a petrol station pretending to be a man of the people, but unable to fill the car because having never done it before, he didn't know how?

I voted for Truss... yeah, OK.... because he's a sitting target for the 'rich and out of touch' label come election time.

Also he looked rather pleading when he was speaking at hustings.

He didn't impress me as a potential election winner or someone who would take tough choices, always easier to tighten the tax screw than tell people they can't have something or other.

V8

Is and portrays being snidey, doesn't command interest/focus. A creep that wormed his way into being PM, wasn't actually elected either by the people or the Conservative Party Members. But Remainers like him for the undoing Brexit he's so far achieved (wasted the NI, rid the party of a number of Brexiteers etc.). Says he voted for Brexit, but clearly that was just a political career decision at the time.

[servodude]

I voted for Truss... yeah, OK.... because he's a sitting target for the 'rich and out of touch' label come election time.

Also he looked rather pleading when he was speaking at hustings.

He didn't impress me as a potential election winner or someone who would take tough choices, always easier to tighten the tax screw than tell people they can't have something or other.

V8

Me too. His profligacy as Chancellor with his furlough and "Eat Out to Spread it About" schemes horrified me. And never mind the billions squandered on un-checked business support loans. He always seemed to take the popular option and hang the expense.

...but he did it out of expediency and self aggrandisement

After taking the knee, when Javid refused to, he was lashed to the front of this version of the Boris Bus to Populism Central as its mascot of fiscal possibility; "Look! The numbers guy said it! Huzzah!"
So when it falls to him to continue the... "Plan" (seems like a big word for it) it's not surprising he sounds a bit unconvinced.
For all his allegiance to Boris he's not one of the vacuous meat skins, he knows what he's having to do... and it must be super galling to wave through this honours list knowning he's going to be remembered as not much more than the guy who didn't quite get to tidy up after the party... especially as he's (more than likely) not in it for the money.

[Wuffle]

You aren't supposed to say so, especially if you are a politician, but it is the old people (and to be fair, extensively educated young people but they will almost certainly end up in the former category).
The sums are simple.
How many years do you contribute, how much do you contribute, and how much do you take, and for how long.
People are living longer, so they should be working longer, or paying more tax.
Working longer does remarkable things to the balance sheet.
But people are mostly idiots.

W.

[NeilW]

As a pensioner, paying a significant amount of tax from my pension and net income Council Tax, I'm just wondering how much more the taxpayer can be expected to pay, especially if a Labour Government gets into power.

Tax, in aggregate, is just recovering income paid to people by government. If we hire 100 doctors in the public sector, that amount of income paid to them bounces around the economy *increasing* the income of people further down the spending chain. Some of that increase is then recovered from each step until it is all recovered, or the money is saved.

The actual economic purpose of taxation is to reduce the capacity of the private sector to offer jobs so there are unemployed people that the public sector can then hire. Therefore it can continue until everybody works for the public sector.

Given that the young have been shafted by a selfish boomer generation, it's very likely they will elect somebody who will remove the 'basic income' of pensioners and transfer it to themselves. After all the young produce all that is consumed, and the capital inheritance handed to them has been degraded by selfishness and lack of investment. So it's hardly surprising the young believe they owe older people nothing.

We made the bed. Now we get to lie in it.

[spasmodicus]

This is all a bit depressing, on a Monday morning. But for every individual, pensioners like me included, there is an antidote to all this. Stop moaning, get out there and do something useful.
S

[Dod101]

As a pensioner, paying a significant amount of tax from my pension and net income Council Tax, I'm just wondering how much more the taxpayer can be expected to pay, especially if a Labour Government gets into power.

Tax, in aggregate, is just recovering income paid to people by government. If we hire 100 doctors in the public sector, that amount of income paid to them bounces around the economy *increasing* the income of people further down the spending chain. Some of that increase is then recovered from each step until it is all recovered, or the money is saved.

The actual economic purpose of taxation is to reduce the capacity of the private sector to offer jobs so there are unemployed people that the public sector can then hire. Therefore it can continue until everybody works for the public sector.

Given that the young have been shafted by a selfish boomer generation, it's very likely they will elect somebody who will remove the 'basic income' of pensioners and transfer it to themselves. After all the young produce all that is consumed, and the capital inheritance handed to them has been degraded by selfishness and lack of investment. So it's hardly surprising the young believe they owe older people nothing.

We made the bed. Now we get to lie in it.

That is of course basically a lot of nonsense and as such should not be allowed on a semi serious Forum like this.

Dod

[Dod101]

This is all a bit depressing, on a Monday morning. But for every individual, pensioners like me included, there is an antidote to all this. Stop moaning, get out there and do something useful.
S

Yes I agree. And do not read threads like this. They will change nothing and are mostly I think from self opinionated people who like to push their views as though they are the gospel.

Dod

[scotview]

This is all a bit depressing, on a Monday morning. But for every individual, pensioners like me included, there is an antidote to all this. Stop moaning, get out there and do something useful.
S

Well it's Monday morning and I should be on the golf course with the seniors......but it is the funeral today of a school chum, ex golf club secretary and the club flag is at half mast. Club closed out of respect today but we'll be back tomorrow early before the ladies tee off.

I can assure you I for one get out a fair bit, golfing, walking with my misses, bird watching, whale watching, fly fishing, photography......

I posted because, if taxes rise any more, my interests will be somewhat restricted, camera lenses, fishing rods and the like.

The best laid plans o mice etc etc

Just saying.

[Nimrod103]

This is all a bit depressing, on a Monday morning. But for every individual, pensioners like me included, there is an antidote to all this. Stop moaning, get out there and do something useful.
S

Yes I agree. And do not read threads like this. They will change nothing and are mostly I think from self opinionated people who like to push their views as though they are the gospel.

Dod

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I also think it is a fair question to ask whether the incentives (to both individuals and to companies) in the UK are now being blunted by the high levels of taxation. So far there seems to be evidence that too many late 50 to 60 year olds have been withdrawing from the labour force during and since Covid, so that there are something like 6 million economically inactive people below retirement age. I think there is evidence that the better off are doing this because they have sufficient pension savings, while the poorer are being signed off with 'bad backs' and 'mental issues'. I think there is also evidence that a younger cohort of 20 year olds is doing much the same, starting a life of idleness and crime.

At the corporate level, raising CT to such high levels was very ill advised. The most immediate response has already happened where the North Sea windfall tax has caused the termination of that industry pretty well stone dead. Already Hunt is trying to backtrack - how could he not see it coming? Who is advising him? And similar plans will already be being discussed in the boardrooms of British companies in other industries. Raising taxes is not the way to encourage British industry.

It all comes down to incentives to work, and the present set up in the UK doesn't seem to be providing them.