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Anyone in to swinging :)

Honest reporting on shorter-term trading activity and ideas
rams
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Anyone in to swinging :)

#385213

Postby rams » February 9th, 2021, 7:35 pm

Swing trading I mean?

I'm new to all of this and around Christmas I transferred my very small pension pot of £25k into a SIPP and £5k with Hargreaves Lansdowne. I'm 45years old and realise I left it saving late, but now intend on making up for it.

So I need to learn about computer screen setup, trading software and anything else.

Leif
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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385270

Postby Leif » February 9th, 2021, 10:10 pm

Sounds rather risky. In my opinion you’d better off putting it in a unit trust. A lot of people like global index funds. Even a US index fund would be lower risk, just leave it alone for 20 years.

argoal
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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385338

Postby argoal » February 10th, 2021, 10:05 am

Great idea rams!

Unfortunately 30K if way too little to learn about swing trading. It will probably be gone in a few months.

You need at least 350K to make it a worth while pursuit.

If you put £500 a month into your SIPP invested in a global tracker such as VWRL and don’t touch it for 20 years, you should have around 350K to start learning about swing trading with.

If, on the other hand, you change your mind about swing trading as the path to wealth along the way you would still have a reasonable sum available to support you in retirement or buy the latest Tesla flying car with.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385544

Postby BobGe » February 11th, 2021, 6:12 am

Agree. You've nothing like enough funds to play around and it's not sensible to risk your pension pot even if it's very small. To be adventurous you need to have enough to work with to make it worthwhile and be able to loose a decent portion of that without it bothering you.

Rather than spending resources on trying to get rich quick, which is rarely achievable, stick the money in a few Investment Trusts and, with the time saved, you'd be able earn some other part time income which you can use to top-up using cheap regular investment trades. It's known as getting rich slowly. ;-)

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385547

Postby GoSeigen » February 11th, 2021, 6:26 am

argoal wrote:Great idea rams!

Unfortunately 30K if way too little to learn about swing trading. It will probably be gone in a few months.

You need at least 350K to make it a worth while pursuit.

If you put £500 a month into your SIPP invested in a global tracker such as VWRL and don’t touch it for 20 years, you should have around 350K to start learning about swing trading with.

If, on the other hand, you change your mind about swing trading as the path to wealth along the way you would still have a reasonable sum available to support you in retirement or buy the latest Tesla flying car with.


Argoal is right. I started with about £350k as he suggested and lost about £100k within six months. Recovered from that and managed to support the family but in hindsight I'd have preferred half a million or more. Quite apart from anything else you're going to be making stupid mistakes for the first couple of years which will cost you thousands at a time

Before considering it also interrogate your personality type. If you are a gambler of addictive type it's simply not going to work. You need to be cool, contrarian, analytical and have very solid maths background and the humility to accept your mistakes, i.e. not attribute losses to bad luck.



GS

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385609

Postby airbus330 » February 11th, 2021, 10:34 am

Just to add to the above because I was in the same position as the OP at age 41. I did pretty much what the posters above have advised, taking every tax advantage possible in the pension system and a low charge global fund. 21 years later I suddenly got made redundant and found that I had enough to live on quite comfortably. Assuming that is what the OP is after, a reasonable retirement, this is the only sensible way to go. My early dabble in the Dotcom boom to achieve a massive uplift to my early years of not saving, predictably ended in losses, while my dull tracker just kept on quietly getting bigger. The only question mark, is that I have been lucky enough to have lived through 20 years of almost uninterrupted growth, and even with a 100 years of backward looking data supporting the theory that that trend should continue, I do wonder if the changes we see happening in the world right now will change the trajectory of future investment.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385636

Postby Leif » February 11th, 2021, 12:00 pm

airbus330 wrote:Just to add to the above because I was in the same position as the OP at age 41. I did pretty much what the posters above have advised, taking every tax advantage possible in the pension system and a low charge global fund. 21 years later I suddenly got made redundant and found that I had enough to live on quite comfortably. Assuming that is what the OP is after, a reasonable retirement, this is the only sensible way to go. My early dabble in the Dotcom boom to achieve a massive uplift to my early years of not saving, predictably ended in losses, while my dull tracker just kept on quietly getting bigger. The only question mark, is that I have been lucky enough to have lived through 20 years of almost uninterrupted growth, and even with a 100 years of backward looking data supporting the theory that that trend should continue, I do wonder if the changes we see happening in the world right now will change the trajectory of future investment.


I’ve been reviewing my investments over the past 20+ years, and the striking feature is the impact of the dot com crash and to a lesser extent the GFC of 2008, followed by the long bull run. We must be running on fumes now, and yet the markets are growing. The growth of China, and its stimulation of the world economy perhaps explains some of the present.

I have cash funds, and may move more into cash as protection from a crash, but noone can predict the future. We might see a crash this year, in five years or ten years.

dealtn
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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385640

Postby dealtn » February 11th, 2021, 12:13 pm

Leif wrote:
airbus330 wrote:Just to add to the above because I was in the same position as the OP at age 41. I did pretty much what the posters above have advised, taking every tax advantage possible in the pension system and a low charge global fund. 21 years later I suddenly got made redundant and found that I had enough to live on quite comfortably. Assuming that is what the OP is after, a reasonable retirement, this is the only sensible way to go. My early dabble in the Dotcom boom to achieve a massive uplift to my early years of not saving, predictably ended in losses, while my dull tracker just kept on quietly getting bigger. The only question mark, is that I have been lucky enough to have lived through 20 years of almost uninterrupted growth, and even with a 100 years of backward looking data supporting the theory that that trend should continue, I do wonder if the changes we see happening in the world right now will change the trajectory of future investment.


I’ve been reviewing my investments over the past 20+ years, and the striking feature is the impact of the dot com crash and to a lesser extent the GFC of 2008, followed by the long bull run. We must be running on fumes now, and yet the markets are growing. The growth of China, and its stimulation of the world economy perhaps explains some of the present.

I have cash funds, and may move more into cash as protection from a crash, but noone can predict the future. We might see a crash this year, in five years or ten years.


No-one can predict the future, yet you are positioning for a crash.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385698

Postby Leif » February 11th, 2021, 1:40 pm

dealtn wrote:
Leif wrote:
airbus330 wrote:Just to add to the above because I was in the same position as the OP at age 41. I did pretty much what the posters above have advised, taking every tax advantage possible in the pension system and a low charge global fund. 21 years later I suddenly got made redundant and found that I had enough to live on quite comfortably. Assuming that is what the OP is after, a reasonable retirement, this is the only sensible way to go. My early dabble in the Dotcom boom to achieve a massive uplift to my early years of not saving, predictably ended in losses, while my dull tracker just kept on quietly getting bigger. The only question mark, is that I have been lucky enough to have lived through 20 years of almost uninterrupted growth, and even with a 100 years of backward looking data supporting the theory that that trend should continue, I do wonder if the changes we see happening in the world right now will change the trajectory of future investment.


I’ve been reviewing my investments over the past 20+ years, and the striking feature is the impact of the dot com crash and to a lesser extent the GFC of 2008, followed by the long bull run. We must be running on fumes now, and yet the markets are growing. The growth of China, and its stimulation of the world economy perhaps explains some of the present.

I have cash funds, and may move more into cash as protection from a crash, but noone can predict the future. We might see a crash this year, in five years or ten years.


No-one can predict the future, yet you are positioning for a crash.


No I’m not, but I will keep cash reserves to cover at least three years living costs.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385707

Postby dealtn » February 11th, 2021, 1:45 pm

Leif wrote:
dealtn wrote:
Leif wrote:
I’ve been reviewing my investments over the past 20+ years, and the striking feature is the impact of the dot com crash and to a lesser extent the GFC of 2008, followed by the long bull run. We must be running on fumes now, and yet the markets are growing. The growth of China, and its stimulation of the world economy perhaps explains some of the present.

I have cash funds, and may move more into cash as protection from a crash, but noone can predict the future. We might see a crash this year, in five years or ten years.


No-one can predict the future, yet you are positioning for a crash.


No I’m not, but I will keep cash reserves to cover at least three years living costs.


Ok but are saying you are potentially moving more into cash. Not sure why you would be doing that if you weren't also trying to predict the possible future.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385808

Postby Leif » February 11th, 2021, 7:08 pm

dealtn wrote:
Leif wrote:
dealtn wrote:
No-one can predict the future, yet you are positioning for a crash.


No I’m not, but I will keep cash reserves to cover at least three years living costs.


Ok but are saying you are potentially moving more into cash. Not sure why you would be doing that if you weren't also trying to predict the possible future.


I can’t have all equities, I will keep about 10% cash, about 7% at the moment. I always assume there could be a crash tomorrow, and it will take 3-4 years for my investments to recover, hence cash.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385825

Postby Urbandreamer » February 11th, 2021, 8:30 pm

Hay, give the OP a break!!!

Some 30 years ago I started "betting" on the stock market. Seriously EVERYONE regarded it as betting, despite the fact that the government tried to convince us otherwise, because they wanted to sell nationalised industries like Railtrack.

The TV had a program where competing teams invested on the stock market, still to the man in the street it was a gamble.

Then came the dot com crash. They were proved right, or were they?

Since then I have tried spread betting. Ok, I actually lost a small amount of money. My share's did far better.

However you are all SERIOUSLY missing the point. Not only does it cost to learn, but the ONLY way to seriously learn is to do things.

So I say to the OP, go for it! Just expect to suffer and learn. As I have.

Ps I think I'm making about 8% compound through shares, not too different from many trackers. The difference is that I want to do it, rather than be done to, and get paid.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385833

Postby Itsallaguess » February 11th, 2021, 8:54 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Hay, give the OP a break!!!

Some 30 years ago I started "betting" on the stock market...


But were you 45 at the time, like the OP?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385850

Postby Urbandreamer » February 11th, 2021, 9:58 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:But were you 45 at the time, like the OP?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


No I was in my late 20s, some 10 years older than I intended. Then again I didn't have any money when I was 15, or 20, or 25, I had to wait until I had money that I could afford to lose. I can't comment upon if the OP is in that state, or needs to wait until they are 60.

I was about the OP's age when I opened a spread betting account.

For those who don't know, it is often said that you should not invest/speculate money that you will need at any time soon. Less than five years is the often given time. However the actual point is that you may never see it again. That's unlikely on the stock market, but it has happened to me.

Now just WHO is going to claim that the OP is to old to learn from their experience? Should they wait to learn? Or is there some claim that they are too old to learn, hence should avoid the need to do so.

IF we were to ignore almost everything that the OP said, and consider a 45 year old who had no interest in doing their own thing, HELL yes a global tracker is the way to go.

But it's not the way I'd do it, or am doing it. Sure those who do may get more at the end, or not. However if they do get more I'll still be happy doing my thing.

Seriously, Is this just about money?

PS, If the OP has made it this far, I have learned that the costs of trading are HUGE. They don't seem so, but they are. Track your costs, as well as what you guess wrong. After all you only have to be right less than 80% of the time to loose money spread betting, because of the costs.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385883

Postby BobGe » February 12th, 2021, 5:18 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Hay, give the OP a break!!!
However you are all SERIOUSLY missing the point. Not only does it cost to learn, but the ONLY way to seriously learn is to do things.
So I say to the OP, go for it! Just expect to suffer and learn. As I have.

Well, what did you learn as a result of your experience that you might usefully pass on to the OP?

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385884

Postby Itsallaguess » February 12th, 2021, 5:59 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
Now just WHO is going to claim that the OP is to old to learn from their experience? Should they wait to learn? Or is there some claim that they are too old to learn, hence should avoid the need to do so.

IF we were to ignore almost everything that the OP said, and consider a 45 year old who had no interest in doing their own thing, HELL yes a global tracker is the way to go.

But it's not the way I'd do it, or am doing it. Sure those who do may get more at the end, or not. However if they do get more I'll still be happy doing my thing.


I'm not sure that anyone is saying it's too late to learn things - many of the replies here are simply suggesting that there's really no need to have to learn the most painful lessons of personal finance by heading in the 'swing-trading' direction that the OP seems to be heading...

Urbandreamer wrote:
Seriously, is this just about money?


Well we've only got the OP to go on at the moment, but after reading that again then I'd have to say yes, it really does seem to be just about the money, and the fact that the OP seems to think there's a 'get-rich-quick' financial short-cut he can take via 'swing-trading', to make up for his lost ground....

Sounds easy really - all he thinks he needs is a computer screen and some trading software...

In fact it sounds so easy, I really do have to wonder why more people don't do it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385888

Postby Urbandreamer » February 12th, 2021, 7:33 am

BobGe wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Hay, give the OP a break!!!
However you are all SERIOUSLY missing the point. Not only does it cost to learn, but the ONLY way to seriously learn is to do things.
So I say to the OP, go for it! Just expect to suffer and learn. As I have.

Well, what did you learn as a result of your experience that you might usefully pass on to the OP?


Know yourself and to your own self be true.

It may be a trite statement, but there is a reason that we have all heard it.

I never tried swing trading, so can't comment directly upon it. I can comment about doing things that others advised me not to. Their well meant advice took nothing about me into account. It was simply based upon the activity. I knew that 80% of spread betters lost money and wasn't doing it as a "get rich quick" scheme, but friends on TMF wouldn't believe that fact when I stated it. On the spread betting side, it's the costs that are the killer. I stopped when the broker introduced an inactivity fee. I just couldn't find positions that I liked frequently enough to avoid paying it.

Since I know nothing about swing trading I did a google and the first site I visited had a list of brokers, most carrying the warning.
"CFDs and FX are complex instruments and come with a high risk of losing money rapidly due to leverage. Between 74-89% of retail investor accounts lose money when trading CFDs." Possibly the OP would find the same warning when looking to start.

If you (the OP) need excitement then find it, but in a way that doesn't harm you. Financially keep the very risky stuff to a small part of your portfolio. I was spread betting 1% of my portfolio, and knew that I was very unlikely to break even and most likely to lose money.

There are other trite statements and quotes which I might pass on to others than the OP.

Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon.

My point, which you quoted, was that I can't pass on the experience. I can only tell people what it was. They have to gain their own experiences.

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385891

Postby skewwy » February 12th, 2021, 7:50 am

I am the same age and always re-assessing my investment strategy/retirement planning. Currently using the Vanguard Lifestyle trackers (for 3 years) plus a couple of small property/small cap/income trust funds. Before that a HYP basket of shares following PYAD on the old forum, but 'gave up' (oops, how anti PYAD that is) after about 7 years of following it - reasons were that I found that even with 15-20 well diversified shares I always felt at least one Company every couple of years would 'fail' and it always seemed to drag overall performance down too much vs trackers etc.

I probably need to catch up as well to hit my ideal goals.

But having read the Smarter Investor I am satisfied that I don't have the skills, or probably the time horizon, or most importantly the risk outlook to go higher up the risk profile to chase higher gains. So mainly passive investing for me it is.

But, I am also interested in investments/Company tracking, being an FD it is something that is of general interest anyway. Hence why I thought HPY would be ideal.

Anyway, the point I was going to make was that to scratch the itch I have really taken to the FreeTrade app with very small amounts to dip in and out of shares that I feel are potentially undervalued, definitely swing trading, definitely good fun, definitely good for a better understanding of your own risk and knowledge profile. Definitely very small amounts, feeling the same emotions but knowing that your actual investments are fine. It has worked well (emotionally) for me... it's not all about the money! So if for the OP it isn't just about the money this may be an idea

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385892

Postby Itsallaguess » February 12th, 2021, 7:51 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
I was spread betting 1% of my portfolio, and knew that I was very unlikely to break even and most likely to lose money.


All very sensible, of course..

There's nothing in the OP, however, to give the impression that they would also only be risking a similarly tiny portion of their capital on their 'swing-trading' adventure, and as such, I think it's entirely appropriate for them to have received the warnings that they have in many of the subsequent replies...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Anyone in to swinging :)

#385905

Postby dealtn » February 12th, 2021, 9:03 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:
I was spread betting 1% of my portfolio, and knew that I was very unlikely to break even and most likely to lose money.


All very sensible, of course..

There's nothing in the OP, however, to give the impression that they would also only be risking a similarly tiny portion of their capital on their 'swing-trading' adventure, and as such, I think it's entirely appropriate for them to have received the warnings that they have in many of the subsequent replies...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Agreed. He posted on "Trading my way to a million" after all, not Investment Strategies for instance. The journey from £30k to £1m is a long one, and considerations of how that journey might in practice be closer to one of £30k towards £0k might be worthy of considering.


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