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Scottish Words

Mind that apostrophe.
scotia
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Scottish Words

#406788

Postby scotia » April 25th, 2021, 12:03 pm

I have been pleased to see the use of some excellent Scottish words being adopted on these boards - such as outwith and anent.
Without wishing to be too political, I notice that the BBC has been been referring to a "fiancee" in high places, whereas the Scottish "bidie in" seems more appropriate. Should we take a lead in this matter?

dealtn
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Re: Scottish Words

#406797

Postby dealtn » April 25th, 2021, 12:22 pm

scotia wrote:I have been pleased to see the use of some excellent Scottish words being adopted on these boards - such as outwith and anent.
Without wishing to be too political, I notice that the BBC has been been referring to a "fiancee" in high places, whereas the Scottish "bidie in" seems more appropriate. Should we take a lead in this matter?


I don't think you can claim "outwith".

Lanark
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Re: Scottish Words

#406798

Postby Lanark » April 25th, 2021, 12:24 pm

Johnson and Symonds are engaged, so I don't think "bidie in" would be an appropriate term to use.

trystit or trysted seem to be the closest translation:

https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/tryst

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Re: Scottish Words

#406801

Postby Lanark » April 25th, 2021, 12:33 pm

dealtn wrote:
scotia wrote:I have been pleased to see the use of some excellent Scottish words being adopted on these boards - such as outwith and anent.
Without wishing to be too political, I notice that the BBC has been been referring to a "fiancee" in high places, whereas the Scottish "bidie in" seems more appropriate. Should we take a lead in this matter?


I don't think you can claim "outwith".

It is in the DSL
https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/outwith

but dictionary.com has it as mainly Scot
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/outwith

I have a vague memory that Gordon Brown was fond of using that word, which has probably spread its adoption.

dealtn
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Re: Scottish Words

#406803

Postby dealtn » April 25th, 2021, 12:40 pm

Lanark wrote:
dealtn wrote:
scotia wrote:I have been pleased to see the use of some excellent Scottish words being adopted on these boards - such as outwith and anent.
Without wishing to be too political, I notice that the BBC has been been referring to a "fiancee" in high places, whereas the Scottish "bidie in" seems more appropriate. Should we take a lead in this matter?


I don't think you can claim "outwith".

It is in the DSL
https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/outwith

but dictionary.com has it as mainly Scot
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/outwith

I have a vague memory that Gordon Brown was fond of using that word, which has probably spread its adoption.


I'm not suggesting it isn't used in Scotland, rather that it is used in England too, and for all I know elsewhere as well.

My first google suggests its etymology is "Middle English". I don't know precisely what that term means, but would be surprised to discover that's equivalent to Scottish.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outwith# ... ts%20ootwi.

If anything it suggests the Scottish version is "ootwi" (cognate being "having the same linguistic derivation").

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Scottish Words

#406849

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 25th, 2021, 5:03 pm

Lanark wrote:Johnson and Symonds are engaged, so I don't think "bidie in" would be an appropriate term to use.

trystit or trysted seem to be the closest translation:

Private Eye uses the phrase Special Advisor.

Given his track record, any number of less complimentary phrases involving words like "latest" prefacing something mildly derogatory spring to mind.

marronier
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Re: Scottish Words

#406858

Postby marronier » April 25th, 2021, 5:43 pm

"Middle English " refers to the period between the 11th and early 18th centuries when English still loosely followed the French grammar rule of a silent "e" which emphasises the preceding letter and had seven vowels i.e. including "y" (long i ) and "w" ( big O ; omega ). This makes it easier to speak and understand Chaucer's work, largely West country vernacular , which would sound like modern exponents Pam Ayres and Phil Harding ( from Time Team ).

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Re: Scottish Words

#406898

Postby Charlottesquare » April 25th, 2021, 8:22 pm

marronier wrote:"Middle English " refers to the period between the 11th and early 18th centuries when English still loosely followed the French grammar rule of a silent "e" which emphasises the preceding letter and had seven vowels i.e. including "y" (long i ) and "w" ( big O ; omega ). This makes it easier to speak and understand Chaucer's work, largely West country vernacular , which would sound like modern exponents Pam Ayres and Phil Harding ( from Time Team ).


Are you sure with your dates? I had understood Middle English started to be replaced by Early Modern English sometime earlier, nearer the 15th/16th century, and Early Modern was then adapted into Modern English in circa the 17th/18th century. I certainly used to be able to read say Shakespeare from the 16th/17th century without really needing to reach for a glossary but for the one term I studied Chaucer I was constantly looking up word meanings.

I always felt Middle English sounded more like later Northumbrian/ Scottish speech which , if read with a Scottish cadence, seemed to make more sense to me, but that may have been due to my being more familiar with Scottish dialogue (given I am Scottish).

scotia
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Re: Scottish Words

#406916

Postby scotia » April 25th, 2021, 11:07 pm

dealtn wrote:
scotia wrote:I have been pleased to see the use of some excellent Scottish words being adopted on these boards - such as outwith and anent.
Without wishing to be too political, I notice that the BBC has been been referring to a "fiancee" in high places, whereas the Scottish "bidie in" seems more appropriate. Should we take a lead in this matter?


I don't think you can claim "outwith".

I had always assumed that it was in general use across the UK, when I discovered otherwise a considerable number of years ago. The occasion was the oral examination of a Ph.D. student (in a Scottish University), and the external examiner - a professor from an English University - took exception to the word outwith in the thesis. Our head of department, who was English by birth, but who had been a professor in our Scottish University for many years leapt to the rescue and explained it was a perfectly legitimate Scottish word - and he produced a dictionary where it pronounced the word as Scottish - hence it remained in the thesis. But the English professor had clearly never heard it in use. Perhaps it has become more widespread in use over the past 45 years. A quick lookup with Bing describes it as Scottish, as do the online Collins and Cambridge dictionaries. However I'm pleased to hear that it is now so widespread that the English are trying to take credit for such a useful word.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Scottish Words

#406918

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 25th, 2021, 11:28 pm

scotia wrote:But the English professor had clearly never heard it in use. Perhaps it has become more widespread in use over the past 45 years. A quick lookup with Bing describes it as Scottish, as do the online Collins and Cambridge dictionaries. However I'm pleased to hear that it is now so widespread that the English are trying to take credit for such a useful word.

It's a familiar enough English word with a Scottish feel.

I can well believe it has Scottish origins. Like so much of our language, it's imported. Though to be honest, I'd rather import your whisky.

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Re: Scottish Words

#406922

Postby servodude » April 26th, 2021, 12:05 am

scotia wrote:
dealtn wrote:
scotia wrote:I have been pleased to see the use of some excellent Scottish words being adopted on these boards - such as outwith and anent.
Without wishing to be too political, I notice that the BBC has been been referring to a "fiancee" in high places, whereas the Scottish "bidie in" seems more appropriate. Should we take a lead in this matter?


I don't think you can claim "outwith".

I had always assumed that it was in general use across the UK, when I discovered otherwise a considerable number of years ago. The occasion was the oral examination of a Ph.D. student (in a Scottish University), and the external examiner - a professor from an English University - took exception to the word outwith in the thesis. Our head of department, who was English by birth, but who had been a professor in our Scottish University for many years leapt to the rescue and explained it was a perfectly legitimate Scottish word - and he produced a dictionary where it pronounced the word as Scottish - hence it remained in the thesis. But the English professor had clearly never heard it in use. Perhaps it has become more widespread in use over the past 45 years. A quick lookup with Bing describes it as Scottish, as do the online Collins and Cambridge dictionaries. However I'm pleased to hear that it is now so widespread that the English are trying to take credit for such a useful word.


Same happened to me - it was flagged as inappropriate in my thesis in England (I changed it for peace).
I'd used it in various submissions happily in Scotland and Sweden without comment from reviewer; I've continued to use it since.

Glad to see it gaining traction as it's a very useful word when talking about regions in domains.

I hope that not too far into the future we'll be able to see it in a posting window without a wee red squiggle under it; and then we can move on to promoting "messages".

- sd

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Re: Scottish Words

#406932

Postby Dod101 » April 26th, 2021, 5:33 am

I certainly like the word 'anent'. It is short snappy and easily understood. I did not realise that 'outwith' was particularly Scottish but I use it quite a lot as well.

Dod

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Re: Scottish Words

#407061

Postby stewamax » April 26th, 2021, 11:46 am

Charlottesquare wrote:I always felt Middle English sounded more like later Northumbrian/ Scottish speech which , if read with a Scottish cadence, seemed to make more sense to me, but that may have been due to my being more familiar with Scottish dialogue (given I am Scottish).

My feeling also. There are many recordings on YouTube and elsewhere of (e.g.) the ME Piers Plowman and the OE Beowulf. These have always sounded to me like Durham/Newcastle/Northumberland intonation but spoken slowly. This is out of kilter with what we know of the Old Norse (Viking) incursion since one would (naively perhaps) expect something different. The north-of-Scotland/Orkney/Shetland/Hebridean intonation sounds to me closer than the current central belt 'Scottish' intonation (I formerly lived in Stirling and Linlithgow...).
But Northumberland and all the way up to Edinburgh was, after the Romans left, occupied by the Gododdin who spoke a dialect of Old Welsh. as did the Rhedeg who occupied Cumbria, and Old Welsh (aka Brythonic Celtic) is not a Germanic Language, unlike the current Scandinavian, Icelandic and Faroese that are cognate with Old North German.

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Re: Scottish Words

#407122

Postby scotia » April 26th, 2021, 2:51 pm

Lanark wrote:Johnson and Symonds are engaged, so I don't think "bidie in" would be an appropriate term to use.

trystit or trysted seem to be the closest translation:

https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/tryst

I'm perhaps being a bit cautious about the strength of certain matrimonial promises - so I still favour the bidie in.
res non verba

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Re: Scottish Words

#407124

Postby Lanark » April 26th, 2021, 2:57 pm

scotia wrote:
Lanark wrote:Johnson and Symonds are engaged, so I don't think "bidie in" would be an appropriate term to use.

trystit or trysted seem to be the closest translation:

https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/tryst

I'm perhaps being a bit cautious about the strength of certain matrimonial promises - so I still favour the bidie in.
res non verba

Good point, whatever Boris promises will happen never does.

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Re: Scottish Words

#410970

Postby Newroad » May 11th, 2021, 9:39 am

Hmm.

Sitting here on my bucket somewhat south of Auchenshoogle, it's not entirely clear to me that (lowland?) Scottish has had too great an affect on the broader English language.

Regards, Newroad


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