The Lemon Fool

Evening all.

I generally tune in to the daily briefing at No10 and have noted that the scientists and ministers use the term, ‘these data’ when referring to graphs.

I don’t use the term ‘data’ in my workplace, but in the past would have used the term, ‘this data’ rather than ‘these data’. Data sounds singular, but thinking about it, can refer to a many figures or pieces of information.

Is this just my ignorance or is the ‘this’ ‘these’ interchangeable (or doesn’t it really matter)?

Cheers, OLTB.

In theory the singular term is "datum" and the plural term is "data".

But in practice you sound like a douche if you say "datum" so everyone uses "data" whether it is one item or many.

In that context "these data" or "this data" work equally well since it is a noun that defies plurality in common parlance.

Lootman wrote:But in practice you sound like a douche if you say "datum"

I sound like a douche


Julian F. G. W.

jfgw wrote:

Lootman wrote:But in practice you sound like a douche if you say "datum"

I sound like a douche

It is the tragedy of being a pedant. You value being technically correct over the disdain of others. Honourable in some ways.

jfgw wrote:

Lootman wrote:But in practice you sound like a douche if you say "datum"

I sound like a douche


Julian F. G. W.

Me too.

I couldn't give a stuff about what people even less well edumacated than me think.

Lootman wrote:

jfgw wrote:

Lootman wrote:But in practice you sound like a douche if you say "datum"

I sound like a douche

It is the tragedy of being a pedant. You value being technically correct over the disdain of others. Honourable in some ways.

This is one of the few cases where I reluctantly feel like I have to let it go; as much as it pains me.

I had a post-grad supervisor in Sweden edit my plural use of data with some reasoning that has stuck since
He attested that it affects the reader in one of two ways:
- the first is that they will be confused, as it is not what they expect and this can distract them from the rest of your paper
- the second is that they nod sagely and concur and their self satisfaction can obscure the rest of your work

Either way it has a good chance to distract from the point you are trying to put across
Which given this thread might warrant a QED

- sd

(a third type that would be critical because you used data in the singular are probably, as previously noted, douches but might be appeased with a disclaimer)

I use data as plural, but accept also singular usage.

Practitioners of GIS perpetrate an altogether worse abomination: namely, "datums" as a plural.

UncleEbenezer wrote:I use data as plural, but accept also singular usage.

Practitioners of GIS perpetrate an altogether worse abomination: namely, "datums" as a plural.

for different classes?

e.g. Some might say that If you have 100 merino and 50 blue headed Leicester you have 150 sheep but two different sheeps.

- sd

servodude wrote:for different classes?

e.g. Some might say that If you have 100 merino and 50 blue headed Leicester you have 150 sheep but two different sheeps.

- sd

And I would argue that you don't have two different "sheeps" but two breeds of sheep consisting of 150 sheep in total.
Odd to see "sheeps" used in Pedants Place, unless as satire.

At work we do use the term datum, but only for a single instance. By its nature a chart, graph or time series is more than one datum, hence data.
Two time series does not make any one series a single datum, though it does remain one data set or data series distinct from the other.

Urbandreamer wrote:

servodude wrote:for different classes?
e.g. Some might say that If you have 100 merino and 50 blue headed Leicester you have 150 sheep but two different sheeps.

- sd

And I would argue that you don't have two different "sheeps" but two breeds of sheep consisting of 150 sheep in total.
Odd to see "sheeps" used in Pedants Place, unless as satire.

- yes it's cringeworthy and I agree - but I have heard it used

Urbandreamer wrote:At work we do use the term datum, but only for a single instance. By its nature a chart, graph or time series is more than one datum, hence data.
Two time series does not make any one series a single datum, though it does remain one data set or data series distinct from the other.

I can conceive of a situation where you might need to compare data comprised of individual samples from different time series (contemporaneous samples from different loci?)
- slicing the data in the other direction if you will
- i wondered if it was in this vein that the GIS ergot might contrive that datums was warranted as a term

- sd

servodude wrote:I can conceive of a situation where you might need to compare data comprised of individual samples from different time series (contemporaneous samples from different loci?)
- slicing the data in the other direction if you will
- i wondered if it was in this vein that the GIS ergot might contrive that datums was warranted as a term

- sd

Do you mean things that our politicians talk about like the R value or the number of tests. Ignoring for a moment the validity of what they state. Then, yes such things would be examples of datums. Even though each is derived from data. Graphs or charts, as in the OP, can't really be called datum though. Not even if they are comparison charts by loci.

At least that is what I think.

Urbandreamer wrote:And I would argue that you don't have two different "sheeps" but two breeds of sheep consisting of 150 sheep in total.
Odd to see "sheeps" used in Pedants Place, unless as satire.

Indeed, it's out by six months, to when one of the more annoying things they'll be singing is I saw three sheeps come sailing in.

Maybe it should be datums, not data?

Apparently the BBC say referendums, not referenda?

scrumpyjack wrote:Maybe it should be datums, not data?

Apparently the BBC say referendums, not referenda?

A linguist I know once pointed out that the word "forum" used in a sentence in English, is an anglicisation of the latin word of the same spelling. Therefore the English language plural rules apply and one should say "two forums" not "two fora" (as a pedant might argue). Therefore "two referendums" might be correct too, innit.

Mike4 wrote:A linguist I know once pointed out that the word "forum" used in a sentence in English, is an anglicisation of the latin word of the same spelling. Therefore the English language plural rules apply and one should say "two forums" not "two fora" (as a pedant might argue). Therefore "two referendums" might be correct too, innit.

But English is a hybridised mix of many languages. There is no unique ruleset, there are many, coming to us from the many and varied languages in our heritage. "The English rules" is oxymoronic here.

I have a particular bugbear about adding an "s" to a word that is already firmly plural. Like "cherubims", or the most painful of all, "paninis". At least we don't encounter "datas".

UncleEbenezer wrote:

Mike4 wrote:A linguist I know once pointed out that the word "forum" used in a sentence in English, is an anglicisation of the latin word of the same spelling. Therefore the English language plural rules apply and one should say "two forums" not "two fora" (as a pedant might argue). Therefore "two referendums" might be correct too, innit.

But English is a hybridised mix of many languages. There is no unique ruleset, there are many, coming to us from the many and varied languages in our heritage. "The English rules" is oxymoronic here.

I have a particular bugbear about adding an "s" to a word that is already firmly plural. Like "cherubims", or the most painful of all, "paninis". At least we don't encounter "datas".

It's all very confusing. I recently heard a male ballerina is actually a "ballerino".

UncleEbenezer wrote:
I have a particular bugbear about adding an "s" to a word that is already firmly plural. Like "cherubims", or the most painful of all, "paninis". At least we don't encounter "datas".

I don't have a problem with paninis. The word panini has been appropriated by the English language to mean a particular type of sandwich, so to use the usual English plural form paninis seems acceptable.

However I do draw the line at panini's, which I saw sign-written on the side of a van yesterday.

I would want to use data as the singular or plural (though I see it as a set of information).

Staff is another word which I have always used as a plural, but I often see it used as a singular. The staff were very attentive and the staff was very attentive. I guess because one can argue it is a collective, rather than lots of individuals.

richfool wrote:I would want to use data as the singular or plural (though I see it as a set of information).

Information is a word that non-native speakers misuse. If there's a lot of it, they often write "informations".

Apparently datums IS the correct plural in the world of GIS.

http://wiki.gis.com/wiki/index.php/Datum_(geodesy)

Put simply (Ithink):

Extract from the link above:

In surveying and geodesy, a datum is a set of reference points on the earth's surface against which position measurements are made, and (often) an associated model of the shape of the earth (reference ellipsoid) to define a geographic coordinate system.

There are lots of datums. Two example are WGS-72 and WGS-84. Each one is a datum. Both are datums. It would be incorrect (in this sense at least) to say that they are both data.