Page 2 of 3
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 28th, 2020, 7:28 pm
by johnhemming
Breelander wrote:I find it amusing that no one has yet commented on my Grammarly link in the first reply that seems to say use the plural
Grammarly says: A handful of new books are published each week.
That has to be right. Alternatively Five new books are published each week.
However; There is a handful of new books which are published each week.
Or There is a handful of new books being published every week.
Or There is a handful of new books published every week.
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 28th, 2020, 7:42 pm
by Dod101
But that is exactly the point that Mike88 made about the subject of the sentence and I think covers your point.
Dod
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 29th, 2020, 11:28 am
by UncleEbenezer
We seem to have seen a plurality of singular opinions on this subject.
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 29th, 2020, 11:35 am
by Arborbridge
With absolute certainty, it should be "is". That's and "is" with no "ifs" or "buts".
TJH, is also correct - there is a more elegant way, or are more elegant ways, of structuring the sentence.
Arb.
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 29th, 2020, 11:35 am
by chas49
Moderator Message:
As noted quite a long way up the thread, this had the potential to become OT for DAK - and it has. I'm moving it to a more fitting home - Pedants' Place
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 29th, 2020, 6:49 pm
by marronier
I think you is pedantic on insisting on "there is " , but euphonic when you are using " there are ".
Either way, the French solve it by making " il y a " do the job of both.
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 29th, 2020, 7:12 pm
by Lootman
marronier wrote:I think you is pedantic on insisting on "there is " , but euphonic when you are using " there are ".
Either way, the French solve it by making " il y a " do the job of both.
French may be simpler in that case. Also with differentiating singular and plural "you" with "tu" and "vous".
More generally French makes things more complicated by pointlessly assigning genders to nouns, leading to a far greater array of errors.
But at least it only has two genders and not three, like German. The genius of English is that we taught the continentals that gender in nouns is superfluous.
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 29th, 2020, 7:22 pm
by bungeejumper
Memories of the questions my second form English classes used to ask me back in the seventies:
"Sir, what's correct? Aston Villa is brill, or Aston Villa are brill?"
Naah, Sir, Aston Villa are rubbish."
BJ
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 30th, 2020, 1:13 pm
by stewamax
At the risk of opening another can of English worms: if there are lots and lots of companies, are there handfuls of companies or handsful of companies?
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 30th, 2020, 1:32 pm
by GoSeigen
marronier wrote:I think you is pedantic on insisting on "there is " , but euphonic when you are using " there are ".
Either way, the French solve it by making " il y a " do the job of both.
Explanation of the existential use of the copula here, including discussion of the above comparison to French:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copula_(linguistics)#Existential_usageGS
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 30th, 2020, 1:36 pm
by GoSeigen
Lootman wrote:marronier wrote:I think you is pedantic on insisting on "there is " , but euphonic when you are using " there are ".
Either way, the French solve it by making " il y a " do the job of both.
French may be simpler in that case. Also with differentiating singular and plural "you" with "tu" and "vous".
Actually English also differentiates second person singular and plural but it's archaic: "thou hast" vs "you have"; "thou art" vs "you are".
Archaic but still regularly used in context... maybe used in dialect too? Yorkshire?? Scotland??
GS
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 30th, 2020, 2:03 pm
by UncleEbenezer
GoSeigen wrote:Lootman wrote:marronier wrote:I think you is pedantic on insisting on "there is " , but euphonic when you are using " there are ".
Either way, the French solve it by making " il y a " do the job of both.
French may be simpler in that case. Also with differentiating singular and plural "you" with "tu" and "vous".
Actually English also differentiates second person singular and plural but it's archaic: "thou hast" vs "you have"; "thou art" vs "you are".
Archaic but still regularly used in context... maybe used in dialect too? Yorkshire?? Scotland??
GS
Thou is also familiar usage: you wouldn't use it in a professional situation or to address a stranger. A clearer analogy is German "Du", vs "Sie" which is both plural and singular-formal.
Biblical "thou" would've been making a point back in 1611.
Re: Is or are
Posted: June 30th, 2020, 2:05 pm
by UncleEbenezer
stewamax wrote:At the risk of opening another can of English worms: if there are lots and lots of companies, are there handfuls of companies or handsful of companies?
I have been, as one does in this season, enjoying the geeseberry.
Well, you don't say "gooses" now, do you?
Re: Is or are
Posted: July 1st, 2020, 9:04 pm
by stewamax
Concentrating only on the cackling bit, I rather like ganzenberry (Dutch) or possibly gänzeberry (German).
"A portion of ganzenberry pie please waiter" trippeth lightly off the tongue and will, I assume, have more than one berry in it unless the restaurant has hit hard times.
Re: Is or are
Posted: July 1st, 2020, 9:44 pm
by richfool
So what about: this handful of companies and that handful of companies?! Two separate singular handfuls.
As far as I am concerned, it has to be a singular handful, and thus "is", whether the hand contains one or many items.
To use a different example: there is a handful of peanuts, .... not there are a handful of peanuts;
or, here is a handful of peanuts, .... and not here are a handful of peanuts.
Re: Is or are
Posted: July 1st, 2020, 10:45 pm
by Mike88
richfool wrote:So what about: this handful of companies and that handful of companies?! Two separate singular handfuls.
As far as I am concerned, it has to be a singular handful, and thus "is", whether the hand contains one or many items.
To use a different example: there is a handful of peanuts, .... not there are a handful of peanuts;
or, here is a handful of peanuts, .... and not here are a handful of peanuts.
What looks and sounds correct isn't necessarily correct. In grammar the verb should match the subject. In this case the subject is "companies" (plural) so the verb should also be plural, namely "are".
I bet the original poster is none the wiser after reading this thread.
Re: Is or are
Posted: July 2nd, 2020, 5:04 am
by Gengulphus
stewamax wrote:Concentrating only on the cackling bit, I rather like ganzenberry (Dutch) or possibly gänzeberry (German).
"A portion of ganzenberry pie please waiter" trippeth lightly off the tongue and will, I assume, have more than one berry in it unless the restaurant has hit hard times.
It trippeth not so lightly - the Dutch pronunciation of 'g' is guttural...
Though if by any chance anyone is heading for the Netherlands and wants to ask for some gooseberries in Dutch, don't worry about that - instead, concentrate on pronouncing the 'ui' in 'kruisbessen' correctly!
Gengulphus
Re: Is or are
Posted: July 2nd, 2020, 7:02 am
by GoSeigen
Mike88 wrote:richfool wrote:So what about: this handful of companies and that handful of companies?! Two separate singular handfuls.
As far as I am concerned, it has to be a singular handful, and thus "is", whether the hand contains one or many items.
To use a different example: there is a handful of peanuts, .... not there are a handful of peanuts;
or, here is a handful of peanuts, .... and not here are a handful of peanuts.
What looks and sounds correct isn't necessarily correct. In grammar the verb should match the subject. In this case the subject is "companies" (plural) so the verb should also be plural, namely "are".
I bet the original poster is none the wiser after reading this thread.
Yes, very confusing thread.
The subject is NOT "companies". It is "A handful of companies". That is why it's so tricky.
richfool is also confusing the matter. The subject is
not determined by the form of the subject but by
its meaning. A handful of companies is the same in form as a handful of peanuts but they mean different things. The former is merely idiomatic and means "a few companies" or some "companies". The latter implies an actual hand full of peanuts. Thus it is perfectly natural to use the plural verb in one case and singular in the other.
In other contexts the choice between singular and plural will be less clear-cut and a judgement or artistic choice is required.
GS
Re: Is or are
Posted: July 2nd, 2020, 10:00 am
by Mike88
GoSeigen wrote:Mike88 wrote:richfool wrote:So what about: this handful of companies and that handful of companies?! Two separate singular handfuls.
As far as I am concerned, it has to be a singular handful, and thus "is", whether the hand contains one or many items.
To use a different example: there is a handful of peanuts, .... not there are a handful of peanuts;
or, here is a handful of peanuts, .... and not here are a handful of peanuts.
What looks and sounds correct isn't necessarily correct. In grammar the verb should match the subject. In this case the subject is "companies" (plural) so the verb should also be plural, namely "are".
I bet the original poster is none the wiser after reading this thread.
Yes, very confusing thread.
The subject is NOT "companies". It is "A handful of companies". That is why it's so tricky.
richfool is also confusing the matter. The subject is
not determined by the form of the subject but by
its meaning. A handful of companies is the same in form as a handful of peanuts but they mean different things. The former is merely idiomatic and means "a few companies" or some "companies". The latter implies an actual hand full of peanuts. Thus it is perfectly natural to use the plural verb in one case and singular in the other.
It boils down to defining the subject. You say it is "a handful of companies". I say "companies". In the case of the former you are correct. If the latter I am right.
In other contexts the choice between singular and plural will be less clear-cut and a judgement or artistic choice is required.
GS
It boils down to defining the subject. If the subject is "a handful of companies" you are correct. If the subject is "companies" I am right
Re: Is or are
Posted: July 2nd, 2020, 11:04 am
by richfool
Perhaps it would be better to be holding a group of companies.