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Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

Mind that apostrophe.
Itsallaguess
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Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435056

Postby Itsallaguess » August 16th, 2021, 9:32 am

Dod101 wrote:
Can I remind everyone that the term is 'have fewer children', not less?


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30787&p=434750#p434750

Absolutely - it's important that high standards of diction should be maintained, after all....

Dod101 wrote:
It of course does not have all the answers, but these two scientists who have lead on the front line ought to be listened to.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=30798#p434996

Can I remind everyone that the term is 'who have led on the front line', not 'lead'?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

pje16
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435058

Postby pje16 » August 16th, 2021, 9:39 am

Good luck guys
I got rebuked when I tried similar
viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30079
At least there are at least 3 of us (no fewer) :lol: who think grammar is worth paying attention to

Dod101
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435062

Postby Dod101 » August 16th, 2021, 9:46 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Can I remind everyone that the term is 'have fewer children', not less?


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30787&p=434750#p434750

Absolutely - it's important that high standards of diction should be maintained, after all....

Dod101 wrote:
It of course does not have all the answers, but these two scientists who have lead on the front line ought to be listened to.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=30798#p434996

Can I remind everyone that the term is 'who have led on the front line', not 'lead'?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Quite right IAAG. Slip of the finger I am sorry to say resulting in a spelling error. BTW, I do not lead on diction but I like your heading for this thread.

Dod

redsturgeon
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435095

Postby redsturgeon » August 16th, 2021, 11:24 am

I was in the pub a couple of years ago having a few drinks with friends. One of them was a Pakistani who spoke pretty perfect English. I pedantically corrected him when he made the less/fewer error.

His instant retort was classy.

'i'm sorry John, English is only my fifth language".

I have tried not to be so pedantic since.

John

pje16
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435098

Postby pje16 » August 16th, 2021, 11:29 am

redsturgeon wrote:'i'm sorry John, English is only my fifth language".

by implication it sounds like he a knows a few more :lol:

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435102

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » August 16th, 2021, 11:41 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Can I remind everyone that the term is 'have fewer children', not less?


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30787&p=434750#p434750

Absolutely - it's important that high standards of diction should be maintained, after all....

Dod101 wrote:
It of course does not have all the answers, but these two scientists who have lead on the front line ought to be listened to.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=30798#p434996

Can I remind everyone that the term is 'who have led on the front line', not 'lead'?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Make a word of your own - you'll feel much better :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30793

If you can't beat 'em

AiY

Lootman
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435104

Postby Lootman » August 16th, 2021, 11:44 am

redsturgeon wrote:I was in the pub a couple of years ago having a few drinks with friends. One of them was a Pakistani who spoke pretty perfect English. I pedantically corrected him when he made the less/fewer error.

His instant retort was classy.

'i'm sorry John, English is only my fifth language".

I have tried not to be so pedantic since.

Yes and moreover I have found that pedantry is a particularly British (or perhaps, English?) thing. For instance in my time working in the US I don't think I ever had anyone try and pull me up with: "Actually old bean, the pluperfect tense of that verb is . . .". Nor in the other places I worked like Canada, Switzerland and Hong Kong. As long as you know what the other guy means, that is sufficient. And that was before the age of smart phones and text speak.

I wonder sometimes whether pedantry (to use its polite term, one could call it being nitpicky or even anal-retentive) is really a deflection or cover-up? Like when someone replies to a post here to draw attention to a typo or syntactic error in order to avoid answering the point?

Itsallaguess
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435110

Postby Itsallaguess » August 16th, 2021, 11:57 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
Make a word of your own - you'll feel much better :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30793

If you can't beat 'em


Thanks, and I have!

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30793&p=435108#p435108

:O)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

chas49
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435112

Postby chas49 » August 16th, 2021, 11:57 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Can I remind everyone that the term is 'have fewer children', not less?


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30787&p=434750#p434750

Absolutely - it's important that high standards of diction should be maintained, after all....

Dod101 wrote:
It of course does not have all the answers, but these two scientists who have lead on the front line ought to be listened to.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=30798#p434996

Can I remind everyone that the term is 'who have led on the front line', not 'lead'?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


In the spirit of this board, why is the topic title about diction, when what is being discussed is the writing style not the speech? :)

pje16
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435114

Postby pje16 » August 16th, 2021, 12:01 pm

chas49 wrote:In the spirit of this board, why is the topic title about diction, when what is being discussed is the writing style not the speech? :)

Diction can refer to writing as well as speech - how pedantic of me :lol:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/diction

Dod101
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435120

Postby Dod101 » August 16th, 2021, 12:15 pm

Lootman wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:I was in the pub a couple of years ago having a few drinks with friends. One of them was a Pakistani who spoke pretty perfect English. I pedantically corrected him when he made the less/fewer error.

His instant retort was classy.

'i'm sorry John, English is only my fifth language".

I have tried not to be so pedantic since.

Yes and moreover I have found that pedantry is a particularly British (or perhaps, English?) thing. For instance in my time working in the US I don't think I ever had anyone try and pull me up with: "Actually old bean, the pluperfect tense of that verb is . . .". Nor in the other places I worked like Canada, Switzerland and Hong Kong. As long as you know what the other guy means, that is sufficient. And that was before the age of smart phones and text speak.

I wonder sometimes whether pedantry (to use its polite term, one could call it being nitpicky or even anal-retentive) is really a deflection or cover-up? Like when someone replies to a post here to draw attention to a typo or syntactic error in order to avoid answering the point?


I agree with you although I must say that using less rather than fewer grates with me. Reminds me of the signs in supermarkets using less than rather than fewer than. My excuse is that I was taught grammar at school and furthermore I had a father in law who was an old style primary headmaster who was a stickler for grammar and was much missed when he retired from his village school.

As a matter of fact, I spent much of my working life in Hong Kong and one of my Chinese colleagues spoke excellent if somewhat accented English. He could have corrected my grammar.

To answer RS, I would never try to correct anyone in speech.

Dod

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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435122

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 16th, 2021, 12:23 pm

Lootman wrote:Yes and moreover I have found that pedantry is a particularly British (or perhaps, English?) thing. For instance in my time working in the US I don't think I ever had anyone try and pull me up with: "Actually old bean, the pluperfect tense of that verb is . . .". Nor in the other places I worked like Canada, Switzerland and Hong Kong. As long as you know what the other guy means, that is sufficient. And that was before the age of smart phones and text speak.

I wonder sometimes whether pedantry (to use its polite term, one could call it being nitpicky or even anal-retentive) is really a deflection or cover-up? Like when someone replies to a post here to draw attention to a typo or syntactic error in order to avoid answering the point?


Pish tosh, and indeed piffle. Romanes eunt domus.

Most of us[1] apply different standards according to the company we're in. Pedantry is reserved for cases where the other party really should know better, which is very rarely the case in an international context. Or with foreigners, where there's an element of language tuition in the relationship.

[1] Perhaps not all, as witness John's account of his Pakistani friend. Though if the friend's English was sufficiently good, he may have treated the speaker as native.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435125

Postby Itsallaguess » August 16th, 2021, 12:31 pm

chas49 wrote:
In the spirit of this board, why is the topic title about diction, when what is being discussed is the writing style not the speech? :)


Careful - you'll be added to my pedantalist!

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30793&p=435124#p435124

:O)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435140

Postby AleisterCrowley » August 16th, 2021, 1:37 pm

chas49 wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Can I remind everyone that the term is 'have fewer children', not less?


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30787&p=434750#p434750

Absolutely - it's important that high standards of diction should be maintained, after all....

Dod101 wrote:
It of course does not have all the answers, but these two scientists who have lead on the front line ought to be listened to.


https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=30798#p434996

Can I remind everyone that the term is 'who have led on the front line', not 'lead'?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


In the spirit of this board, why is the topic title about diction, when what is being discussed is the writing style not the speech? :)


I thought that, checked, and remained silent...

Diction is more usually relating to speech rather than written word in modern usage (in my most 'umble opinion)

Lootman
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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435153

Postby Lootman » August 16th, 2021, 3:11 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Lootman wrote:Yes and moreover I have found that pedantry is a particularly British (or perhaps, English?) thing. For instance in my time working in the US I don't think I ever had anyone try and pull me up with: "Actually old bean, the pluperfect tense of that verb is . . .". Nor in the other places I worked like Canada, Switzerland and Hong Kong. As long as you know what the other guy means, that is sufficient. And that was before the age of smart phones and text speak.

I wonder sometimes whether pedantry (to use its polite term, one could call it being nitpicky or even anal-retentive) is really a deflection or cover-up? Like when someone replies to a post here to draw attention to a typo or syntactic error in order to avoid answering the point?

Pish tosh, and indeed piffle. Romanes eunt domus.

You get away with inserting a Latin phrase there, but probably only because of the Python reference. Otherwise there is a real danger that inserting Latin phrases into everyday speech renders you guilty of the charge of pretension.(*)

Which of course is the same charge leveled at those who practice pedantry i.e. the self-absorbed assumption of superiority based on technicalities of minimal material worth.

(*) Guilty of that myself as I am rather fond of a priori, a posteriori and a fortiori.

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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435157

Postby doolally » August 16th, 2021, 3:19 pm

Lootman wrote:
(*) Guilty of that myself as I am rather fond of a priori, a posteriori and a fortiori.

Washed down with a chianti?

doolally

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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435170

Postby bungeejumper » August 16th, 2021, 4:31 pm

An excellent scene on the scaffold, sir. All agreed that the condemned man was well hung. ;)

BJ

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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435222

Postby tjh290633 » August 16th, 2021, 8:28 pm

bungeejumper wrote:An excellent scene on the scaffold, sir. All agreed that the condemned man was well hung. ;)

BJ

As a footnote, I feel that the start of a quote shoud be: "bungeejumper having written (ablative absolute):"

My Latin master always came out with that.

TJH

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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435226

Postby AleisterCrowley » August 16th, 2021, 8:56 pm

bungeejumper having written
Needs a comma in there somewhere
Not sure where. Right at the front, so people spot it?

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Re: Do those that lead on diction know that they might sometimes have led better?

#435235

Postby Midsmartin » August 16th, 2021, 9:56 pm

I follow the less/fewer rule. But if you investigate, it's been a fuzzy rule at best, widely ignored, and perhaps one that was only invented in 1770:

https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010 ... fewer.html

"... people happily used “less” to mean “fewer” for some 900 years before anybody minded."


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