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Use of EPICs

Grumpy Old Lemons Like You
Dod101
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Use of EPICs

#438309

Postby Dod101 » August 29th, 2021, 11:27 pm

I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times, but I do not see why posters should not as a matter of courtesy to others, use the full name of a fund or share for the first mention, with the EPIC (if they must) in brackets after it. Thereafter use the EPIC. It is all very well to say that the translation of the EPIC can be found by Googling, using the HL site or however but why should anyone have to? For Mods to then suppress discussion of the topic is I think rather unfair.

Dod

mc2fool
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Re: Use of EPICs

#438310

Postby mc2fool » August 29th, 2021, 11:56 pm

Agree on all points, but rather than just grizzling about it on Bitter Lemons why don't you post on Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe and lobby for it being a suggested guideline? ;)

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438311

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 29th, 2021, 11:58 pm

Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times, but I do not see why posters should not as a matter of courtesy to others, use the full name of a fund or share for the first mention, with the EPIC (if they must) in brackets after it. Thereafter use the EPIC. It is all very well to say that the translation of the EPIC can be found by Googling, using the HL site or however but why should anyone have to? For Mods to then suppress discussion of the topic is I think rather unfair.

Dod

EPIC?
HL?

Now that I come to think of it, though I know what EPIC means, I don't know what the letters stand for. Nor indeed how widely it applies: does it, for instance, extend to exchange-traded non-equity assets? I could google it but CBA.

Dod101
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Re: Use of EPICs

#438312

Postby Dod101 » August 30th, 2021, 12:26 am

mc2fool wrote:Agree on all points, but rather than just grizzling about it on Bitter Lemons why don't you post on Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe and lobby for it being a suggested guideline? ;)


Good idea. In fact I guess it may be back in TMF days but I thought that that was agreed as a convention anyway.

Dod

Dod101
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Re: Use of EPICs

#438314

Postby Dod101 » August 30th, 2021, 12:46 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times, but I do not see why posters should not as a matter of courtesy to others, use the full name of a fund or share for the first mention, with the EPIC (if they must) in brackets after it. Thereafter use the EPIC. It is all very well to say that the translation of the EPIC can be found by Googling, using the HL site or however but why should anyone have to? For Mods to then suppress discussion of the topic is I think rather unfair.

Dod

EPIC?
HL?

Now that I come to think of it, though I know what EPIC means, I don't know what the letters stand for. Nor indeed how widely it applies: does it, for instance, extend to exchange-traded non-equity assets? I could google it but CBA.


A very good question. Am I being as guilty as those that I charge? Should it be TDIM or something? Anyway I am getting at the code that some use for a share ( such as HSBA for HSBC Holdings). I refer to the share as HSBC which seems perfectly logical to me but others like to call it HSBA because that is the code (apparently) assigned to it by the London Stock Exchange.

I was guilty of referring to the Scottish Investment Trust as SIT (get it?) when apparently it is actually known as SCIN per the EPIC. Why on earth would I want to clutter my mind with that?

HL I would have thought though is usually recognised as Hargreaves Lansdown, the quite well known platform.

Dod

TUK020
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Re: Use of EPICs

#438323

Postby TUK020 » August 30th, 2021, 8:10 am

Dod101 wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times, but I do not see why posters should not as a matter of courtesy to others, use the full name of a fund or share for the first mention, with the EPIC (if they must) in brackets after it. Thereafter use the EPIC. It is all very well to say that the translation of the EPIC can be found by Googling, using the HL site or however but why should anyone have to? For Mods to then suppress discussion of the topic is I think rather unfair.

Dod

EPIC?
HL?

Now that I come to think of it, though I know what EPIC means, I don't know what the letters stand for. Nor indeed how widely it applies: does it, for instance, extend to exchange-traded non-equity assets? I could google it but CBA.


A very good question. Am I being as guilty as those that I charge? Should it be TDIM or something? Anyway I am getting at the code that some use for a share ( such as HSBA for HSBC Holdings). I refer to the share as HSBC which seems perfectly logical to me but others like to call it HSBA because that is the code (apparently) assigned to it by the London Stock Exchange.

I was guilty of referring to the Scottish Investment Trust as SIT (get it?) when apparently it is actually known as SCIN per the EPIC. Why on earth would I want to clutter my mind with that?

HL I would have thought though is usually recognised as Hargreaves Lansdown, the quite well known platform.

Dod

EPIC = Exchange Price Information Code
for those that like to talk in code....

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438324

Postby BobbyD » August 30th, 2021, 8:15 am

Dod101 wrote:A very good question. Am I being as guilty as those that I charge? Should it be TDIM or something? Anyway I am getting at the code that some use for a share ( such as HSBA for HSBC Holdings). I refer to the share as HSBC which seems perfectly logical to me but others like to call it HSBA because that is the code (apparently) assigned to it by the London Stock Exchange.


It's generally good practice to use a full name and the abbreviation before switching to the abbreviation when writing, but if we take that to it's logical conclusion then your example should have been 'The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited (HSBC) often reffered to by others as HSBA'.

I would imagine many people here use tickers in their own records, and that they play the role of a familiar name in their thoughts so it isn't surprising that they use them when writing. I know I do.

The regularity avoids confusion with the same company potentially being abbreviated in different ways by different posters and the more confusing problem of different companies being abbreviated in the same way by different posters, and on an investment board it probably isn't going too far to suggest that the EPIC's of 'popular shares' don't really constitute specialist knowledge. Different arguments could be made when talking about more obscure holdings, but then the advantage of exact identification is yet more valuable, and at the end of the day if you don't recognise one then highlight, right click search web will almost invariably tell you what it is in under a second. Oh, and the company and the share class aren't always interchangeable eg. RDSA & RDSB, VOW & VOW3 at which point arguably the opposite argument applies and for accuracy non-EPIC abbreviations such as RDS and VW might be preferable.

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438327

Postby Midsmartin » August 30th, 2021, 8:29 am

Should it be TDIM or something.


I have no idea what a TDIM is. I suppose I could google that one too!

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438334

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 30th, 2021, 9:20 am

Midsmartin wrote:
Should it be TDIM or something.


I have no idea what a TDIM is. I suppose I could google that one too!

Trans-Dimensional Ironic Meme.

As recently seen nearby.

Dod101
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Re: Use of EPICs

#438337

Postby Dod101 » August 30th, 2021, 9:29 am

BobbyD wrote:
Dod101 wrote:A very good question. Am I being as guilty as those that I charge? Should it be TDIM or something? Anyway I am getting at the code that some use for a share ( such as HSBA for HSBC Holdings). I refer to the share as HSBC which seems perfectly logical to me but others like to call it HSBA because that is the code (apparently) assigned to it by the London Stock Exchange.


It's generally good practice to use a full name and the abbreviation before switching to the abbreviation when writing, but if we take that to it's logical conclusion then your example should have been 'The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited (HSBC) often reffered to by others as HSBA'.

I would imagine many people here use tickers in their own records, and that they play the role of a familiar name in their thoughts so it isn't surprising that they use them when writing. I know I do.

The regularity avoids confusion with the same company potentially being abbreviated in different ways by different posters and the more confusing problem of different companies being abbreviated in the same way by different posters, and on an investment board it probably isn't going too far to suggest that the EPIC's of 'popular shares' don't really constitute specialist knowledge. Different arguments could be made when talking about more obscure holdings, but then the advantage of exact identification is yet more valuable, and at the end of the day if you don't recognise one then highlight, right click search web will almost invariably tell you what it is in under a second. Oh, and the company and the share class aren't always interchangeable eg. RDSA & RDSB, VOW & VOW3 at which point arguably the opposite argument applies and for accuracy non-EPIC abbreviations such as RDS and VW might be preferable.


My response disappeared into the ether. The parent company is called HSBC Holdings plc and has been since the mid 1990s when the parent moved its domicile to London.

Dod

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438371

Postby XFool » August 30th, 2021, 10:55 am

Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times, but I do not see why posters should not as a matter of courtesy to others, use the full name of a fund or share for the first mention, with the EPIC (if they must) in brackets after it. Thereafter use the EPIC. It is all very well to say that the translation of the EPIC can be found by Googling, using the HL site or however but why should anyone have to?

Quite.

You are raising the point, you expect me to read it? OK, you do the spadework - that's your job, mine is simply to read and understand it.
If it's a cypher, post it in Games, Puzzles and Riddles.

Dod101 wrote:For Mods to then suppress discussion of the topic is I think rather unfair.

Uh, oh!

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438372

Postby richfool » August 30th, 2021, 11:05 am

I see we now have two threads on this, so I think it only right and reasonable that I copy/post my response and views on this thread too:

I can and do see both sides of this argument, and I have historically sought to give the full name of IT's and their particular tickers, however, I feel that some people are trying to take it to an extreme and are being pedantic about the situation.

If I may make the following points:

1. Often the name of the IT has already been given a few posts above in the thread, if the poster was to look.

2. It is very quick and easy to find the full name of a single IT, but more time consuming for a poster to have to look up and type in many.

3. As said, I usually have sought to list the full names of trusts, when detailing my "postage stamp collection of IT's", (as I think Dod called it, only for Dod himself to then quibble about one single spelling mistake in a long list (of c 30 trusts), where I had mistakenly put an extra "n" in Dunedin (I had put Dunendin)!

4. Quite honestly, I really don't remember the full names of many of the trusts. I remember them by their tickers. (And It's not uncommon for trusts to change their names). Therefore I find myself having to look up the correct full names of multiple holdings when posting a list of holdings, which is frustrating and time consuming, particularly when most posters, who are really interested in that trust or sector will know them anyway.

So, I end up having to open a HL tab and type in the ticker in and look up the full names, often for a significant number of IT's, simply in order to make my post, which is time consuming when doing so for multiple holdings/trusts. For example, look at the JP Morgan stable - e.g. JAGI or MATE, even though I know exactly what trusts I am referring to and I'm sure most readers will too, I have to look up the full name of those: JAGI - JP Morgan Asian Growth & Income trust, or is it JP Morgan Asian Income and Growth trust. If I get it the wrong way round, I know Dod will be there waiting in the wings to correct me, as he did with Dunedin.

Or take another example, EGL, - that's how I remember it. I am not sure of its full name. I think it is Ecofin Global Infrastructure trust, or is it Ecofin Global Infrastructure and Utilities trust. I really don't know off the top of my head, but I do know what trust it is, in the same way I know what ULVR, SMT, or JGGI are. I have decided that to look them all up is an imposition that I really don't want, and as said, I think anyone who is really interested is likely to know the trust, or if it is one they don't know, it isn't too onerous to look that one up.

5. I would be the first to put the full name in, if it was an obscure trust that I was referring to, one which others were unlikely to know, as after all I am seeking views on the trust. But as said it is very time consuming to have to look them all up myself, when most posters know them already.

6. The irony of Dod's posts about EPIC's on the thread: "Candidates for adding to IT portfolio" thread, was that the full names of the trusts had already been given further up the thread, had he bothered to read the preceding posts. Instead, he just jumped in with his comment about tickers: "Talking in code again. Enjoy!". No attempt to respond to the actual post or question within the post. I had to ask myself, did he have any real interest in the topic at all, or was he simply taking advantage of the opportunity of banging that particular drum again. The subject at that time was about "Debt -Loans and Bonds" trusts (and what protection they might give if equity markets fell). The result of his comment was then to take the thread off-topic into an argument about the use of EPIC's and where to look them up. This sort of thing happens all too often where someone quibbles about some side point and ends up taking a thread off-topic. I see it absolutely right that Mods should remove any of those off-topic posts, though ideally that could have been split off to a new thread on that new subject.

I am pleased to see that Dod has at least now raised the EPIC topic on this separate thread.

7. If in a post I see an EPIC I don't know, I generally view it that it is my lack of knowledge and so look it up, and then I decide whether it interests me.

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438382

Postby TUK020 » August 30th, 2021, 11:40 am

XFool wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times,

Quite.

this is now on the correct board!

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Re: Use of EPICs

#438387

Postby XFool » August 30th, 2021, 11:57 am

TUK020 wrote:
XFool wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times,

Quite.

this is now on the correct board!

Well, that's for Dod101 to respond to, appropriately...

For myself I would rather have chosen:
XFool wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times,

One of the privileges of age!

Dod101
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Re: Use of EPICs

#438390

Postby Dod101 » August 30th, 2021, 12:07 pm

XFool wrote:
TUK020 wrote:
XFool wrote:Quite.

this is now on the correct board!

Well, that's for Dod101 to respond to, appropriately...

For myself I would rather have chosen:
XFool wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I am aware that I am probably a grumpy old man at times,

One of the privileges of age!


Thanks to both. I hope that you are correct. The reason I started the other thread was that someone suggested I do so to 'Try to Improve the Recipe'.

Dod


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