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How Good is Your Hearing?

GrahamPlatt
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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#469516

Postby GrahamPlatt » January 1st, 2022, 1:31 am

ten0rman wrote:15 years ago I developed Menieres in my right ear, along with the accompanying vertigo. Two operations later and the vertigo was stopped, but there was very little sound in that ear, even though the consultant recommended a hearing aid. In effect then, I ended up with monaural hearing, but with careful positioning I was able to carry on with choral singing.

Almost 5 years ago, during a Haydn Creation concert, something happened to my left ear in that I lost bass response. As a result I had to give up singing, got to see an audiologist who told me what I already knew and was given two new hearing aids, one for each ear. Over a period of 12 to 15 months, my bass response slowly returned. I can only assume that the concert did some damage which then my body managed to repair.

About 6 months ago I broke one of the ear pieces, was given a further test and ended up with two new hearing aids, one for the left ear with fixed gain, and a much larger one for the right ear with fortunately adjustable gain. I say fortunately, because after 15 years of hearing not much in that ear, I, or perhaps my brain, is/am struggling to cope with all the "new" sounds coming down the hearing system.

I have permanent tinnitus, usually a hissing type low level sound in the right ear, but occasionally a large diesel engine sound in that ear.

TV sound is poor: I now use sub-titles all the time. Conversations are ok on a one-one basis, but very difficult, almost impossible if there are other people speaking or there is other extraneous noise. Fortunately, our cordless 'phones have a loudspeaker mode which for me doubles up as an amplifier.

So, all in all, my hearing is not good, but I am managing, it being the least of my problems, lung cancer being the worst. But, mustn't complain, at least I'm still here, and well past my three score plus 10.

Finally, why am I like that? Dunno. I suspect that listening a very loud noise in my twenties won't have helped, plus in my late forties, I changed offices, and was allocated a desk directly in line with, and about 15 feet away from the fire alarm siren. I did complain about the siren, but was told that it met approved standards. As a result, I went out of the room immediately prior to the weekly test but I will have suffered a few weeks of the siren. Also, I know some singing can be very loud so maybe that has contributed somewhat.

Cheers,

ten0rman


Bloody hell ten0rman. My sympathies. It really is a lesson for those of us without such worries. Your tale makes me count my blessings. Hang in there mate.

ten0rman
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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#469889

Postby ten0rman » January 3rd, 2022, 11:54 am

Thanks for the sympathy Graham. In reality, it sounds worse that it actually is although every word I've said is true. One gets used to monaural hearing. With the singing I had to make sure that I was always on the rhs of my section so that I could hear the others. The operations for vertigo, frankly, I would have done anything to get rid of the vertigo - it really was the most unpleasant part of the Menieres. But overall I managed, and I do have some great memories of taking part in some wonderful concerts, but after 50 years, well, I think I've done my bit.

TBH, the mental effects of the reduction in hearing isn't that bad. I think there are other problems which are far worse. Even the cancer, surprisingly, isn't that bad at the moment. Of course, when I reach the end, who knows? Although, apparently, death is quite painless, but it has served to focus the mind, something that the hearing loss never did. But then, approaching 79? Well, I've had a reasonable life, and hope for a few more years yet. Interestingly, I was talking to another old man yesterday, who I later discovered had been diagnosed with Parkinson's and was on pills that made him sleepy. But before I knew that, he made a positive comment about the fact that I was still driving. I don't know for certain, but I do wonder now if he has had to give up driving. Now that's something I don't wish to lose! But we are in danger of going off topic.

Cheers,

ten0rman

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#469996

Postby TUK020 » January 3rd, 2022, 5:56 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Hearing is the strangest thing. Mine is quite damaged from loud music and I have great difficulty in loud environments (e.g. pubs with a lot of people in, or even a full restaurant) hearing what people are saying. It worse than that in fact, I simply can't distinguish the words so I end up retreating into my own little, isolated world in the mush of noise.

Yet OTOH, I have my wonderful 1970s hifi which I love listening to, and the quality of the sound is such that I have been dissatisfied with MP3s and all digital music except CDs until now, when I bought a quite expensive streaming DAC to listen to Spotify and eventually Tidal (on the recommendation of a customer of mine who does sound stuff for a living) in the hope of achieving some truly hi digital fi. And I'm utterly delighted with it, the difference between listening to my Mac plugged into my Quad 22s and Tannoy Chatsworths and the DAC is beyond noticeable to my lug holes. Digital music sources finally sound as good as CDs!

How strange is that, given how I can't determine what people are yelling at me from three feet away in the loud pub?


Please excuse in advance a response in engineering speak........

When listening to multiple sound sources simultaneously (e.g. several people talking in a pub), your brain is performing some very sophisticated tricks to get directional selectivity between the different sources. It does this by using the phase difference of the sound from a particular source arriving at each ear. The phase difference is more pronounced for shorter wavelength (higher frequency) content.

As you get older your hearing sensitivity to higher frequencies degrades. While this has some impact on your ability to appreciate the fidelity of music, it actually has a more distinct impact on your ability to differentiate sounds from different sources - the sounds of multiple people speaking simultaneously get "mushed together", rather than you brain being able to track them each separately from directional selectivity.

The Victorians used ear trumpets, which actually helped with the directional selectivity as well as with gain of the signal. Don't know where you would get one, and it might look a bit strange down your local, but I am sure they would get used to it.

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470004

Postby TUK020 » January 3rd, 2022, 6:02 pm

just seen a couple of threads down in Curiosity Corner "Free-ish quad sound" is touching on the same topic of hearing phase differences

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470010

Postby Mike4 » January 3rd, 2022, 6:30 pm

TUK020 wrote:The Victorians used ear trumpets, which actually helped with the directional selectivity as well as with gain of the signal. Don't know where you would get one, and it might look a bit strange down your local, but I am sure they would get used to it.



Funny you should say that, I was thinking I'd quite like to take a euphonium down the pub to use for that exact purpose.


(Edit to add a missing word.)

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470038

Postby kiloran » January 3rd, 2022, 9:46 pm

Mike4 wrote:Funny you should say that, I was thinking I'd quite like to take a euphonium down the pub to use for that exact purpose.

(Edit to add a missing word.)

Little use as an ear trumpet, I fear, but a fine instrument. In my youth I played the euphonium in a brass band. Took a lot of polishing, mind

--kiloran

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470100

Postby bungeejumper » January 4th, 2022, 10:15 am

Never mind about sounds from different sources. Why is it that so many interviews on the TV are mushy and non-sibilant to the point where I start to suspect that the speakers must have no front teeth? And then, just when you think the whole world's got a speech impediment, the studio presenter cuts in with crystal-clear pronunciation that confirms that there's nothing wrong with either my hearing or my audio equipment?

Serious question. Clive Myrie or David Attenborough seem to have full command of the entire frequency range, but our roving reporter Tracey can't manage better that "oofull dwarf baffle ought flagger fnorr yeffterdy bag thnaffa". To say nothing of the delightful Chester zoo staff (Secret Life of the Zoo), who have the additional hurdle of a sub-scouse accent to overcome? Either way, we're turning on the TV subtitles more often these days. We turn them off again when the senior presenters with a full range of sibilants come back onto the microphones.

Could it be that "outside broadcast" microphones are short on the upper registers, even when people are conducting interviews in quiet rooms - and that the sound editors at the TV desks are too hearing-impaired to notice? Or is it just a yoof fashion?

I mean, it wouldn't be the first time. :| Estuary Speak in the 1990s encouraged young'uns to talk through the widest frog-mouths they could manage. And Exeter University speak (eg Alice Roberts) brought in an affected lisp that seems to be still hanging on there. (There's some interesting research out there that connects the soft-spoken lisp thing with changing attitudes to sexual diversity, but that's another whole apple cart I suppose.)

What I want is a Clive Myrie audio filter for my TV. No need for anything more sophisticated than that. :) Where can I get one?

BJ

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470165

Postby kiloran » January 4th, 2022, 1:25 pm

bungeejumper wrote:Never mind about sounds from different sources. Why is it that so many interviews on the TV are mushy and non-sibilant to the point where I start to suspect that the speakers must have no front teeth? And then, just when you think the whole world's got a speech impediment, the studio presenter cuts in with crystal-clear pronunciation that confirms that there's nothing wrong with either my hearing or my audio equipment?

Serious question. Clive Myrie or David Attenborough seem to have full command of the entire frequency range, but our roving reporter Tracey can't manage better that "oofull dwarf baffle ought flagger fnorr yeffterdy bag thnaffa". To say nothing of the delightful Chester zoo staff (Secret Life of the Zoo), who have the additional hurdle of a sub-scouse accent to overcome? Either way, we're turning on the TV subtitles more often these days. We turn them off again when the senior presenters with a full range of sibilants come back onto the microphones.

Could it be that "outside broadcast" microphones are short on the upper registers, even when people are conducting interviews in quiet rooms - and that the sound editors at the TV desks are too hearing-impaired to notice? Or is it just a yoof fashion?

I mean, it wouldn't be the first time. :| Estuary Speak in the 1990s encouraged young'uns to talk through the widest frog-mouths they could manage. And Exeter University speak (eg Alice Roberts) brought in an affected lisp that seems to be still hanging on there. (There's some interesting research out there that connects the soft-spoken lisp thing with changing attitudes to sexual diversity, but that's another whole apple cart I suppose.)

What I want is a Clive Myrie audio filter for my TV. No need for anything more sophisticated than that. :) Where can I get one?

BJ

Ever listened to Julie Etchingham reading the ITV news? She's softly spoken anyway, but a really annoying habit is when she finishes talking to another reporter in the studio. Mumble, mumble, whisper "Well thank you very much for that report, Fred". Starts reading the next item in the news, starting with the same mumble/whisper then gradually winds up the volume to her normal soft voice. Same with Tom Bradby after he finishes with an in-studio reporter.

Really bugs me. A newsreader should have diction beyond reproach. BBC newsreaders tend to be a lot better

--kiloran

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470228

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 4th, 2022, 4:29 pm

XFool wrote:Is that not, sadly, generally an age 'thing' ? (Don't know how old you are!) It is commonly ascribed to loss of hearing at the higher frequencies.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.

Serious hearing loss is usually associated with old age. But the loss of high frequencies happens early: by your mid-teens they're pretty-much gone, and what remains is fairly stable thereafter. Medical issues aside, the decline should be very gradual.

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470230

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 4th, 2022, 4:39 pm

kiloran wrote:Really bugs me. A newsreader should have diction beyond reproach. BBC newsreaders tend to be a lot better

--kiloran

BBC has annoyingly started giving us presenters (though at least, not yet newsreaders) with serious speech impediments. Sounds like a Virtue Signal in the equality agenda, but utterly inappropriate for the radio,

(Honourable exception to their "lost voice guy", who makes a show of it and works through a synthesizer that does a good job of making him both comprehensible and funny).

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470232

Postby pje16 » January 4th, 2022, 4:43 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:BBC has annoyingly started giving us presenters (though at least, not yet newsreaders) with serious speech impediments.

examples please

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470238

Postby XFool » January 4th, 2022, 4:56 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
XFool wrote:Is that not, sadly, generally an age 'thing' ? (Don't know how old you are!) It is commonly ascribed to loss of hearing at the higher frequencies.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.

Serious hearing loss is usually associated with old age. But the loss of high frequencies happens early: by your mid-teens they're pretty-much gone, and what remains is fairly stable thereafter. Medical issues aside, the decline should be very gradual.

I can imagine that "gradual" varies considerably between individuals, as it does with many things.

Yes, I can remember my teens when I could easily hear the 10,125 kHz line time base whistle of 405 line TVs, even the 15,625 kHz of 625 line TVs. Though, even then, that felt unpleasantly like it was pushing at my limits.

I can remember hearing bats as a child - their calling squeaks presumably, not their supersonic sonar.

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470242

Postby Watis » January 4th, 2022, 5:14 pm

XFool wrote:
Yes, I can remember my teens when I could easily hear the 10,125 kHz line time base whistle of 405 line TVs, even the 15,625 kHz of 625 line TVs. Though, even then, that felt unpleasantly like it was pushing at my limits.

I can remember hearing bats as a child - their calling squeaks presumably, not their supersonic sonar.


Me too!

And I could hear bats calling well into middle age. (My middle age, not the bats).

About 30 years ago, I was able to hear into the low 20,000 kHz, measured by a sine wave generator used for calibrating audio equipment.

I still hear sounds, not just high frequencies, that others around me haven't.

Watis

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470245

Postby XFool » January 4th, 2022, 5:30 pm

bungeejumper wrote:Could it be that "outside broadcast" microphones are short on the upper registers, even when people are conducting interviews in quiet rooms - and that the sound editors at the TV desks are too hearing-impaired to notice? Or is it just a yoof fashion?

This has been much discussed - and complained about - in the past on radio programmes etc.

Remember that BBC TV series of a few years ago, based on the idea of the UK being invaded and overrun by the Nazis in WW2? The German actors spoke German between themselves (subtitled) leading many people to complain they could follow what the Germans were saying better than they could the native English characters!

It's complicated. Factors to consider:
The age of people in the audience. Older people do have greater difficulty for the reasons given above. The young people on the "TV desks" are young and so they have better hearing than many in the audience and so are not able to directly perceive the problems older people may be having. Particularly related to the sound level balance with background noises and accompanying music on the soundtrack.

TV production is not as it was. The earlier days studio production with a few actors in a room has gone, it's more like big film productions nowadays. Big sound effects, big music, big TV screens - but with tiny little speakers, in flat screens, that are worse than 1960s/70s TVs! (And stereo possibly making it worse)

Acting. The old school style, declaim very clearly to be heard at the back of the theatre, has long gone. Marlon Brando etc. won out. :)

Put all these together and you get... a lot of people ringing up the BBC to complain they can't hear what the actors are saying. Remember that BBC WW2 series? After the first few episode the BBC had to adjust the soundtrack mix level.

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470251

Postby XFool » January 4th, 2022, 5:44 pm

Watis wrote:Me too!

And I could hear bats calling well into middle age. (My middle age, not the bats).

About 30 years ago, I was able to hear into the low 20,000 kHz, measured by a sine wave generator used for calibrating audio equipment.

I still hear sounds, not just high frequencies, that others around me haven't.

Mine was far from spectacular even by my teens - I don't know but am suspicious of the after effects on my ears of a bad cold I had when I was around twelve.

I remember at school in a physics class the master once tried this out: We all had to stand up and an inaudible high frequency signal from a generator was gradually lowered in pitch. We were asked to sit down when we could hear it and I was one of the last sitters if I remember correctly. One thing came to light from this, one boy was the last by a long way to sit down, such that it indicated he must have had defective hearing. I seem to remember he also had a rather thick, unclear, speaking voice.

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470271

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 4th, 2022, 6:55 pm

pje16 wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:BBC has annoyingly started giving us presenters (though at least, not yet newsreaders) with serious speech impediments.

examples please

I'm not good on names.

One was a former presenter who was very ill (I think probably a stroke) and has gradually returned to life. One R4 programme was a long interview with her about the stroke and recovery - which was fine: in the circumstances one makes allowances, and the interviewer was helpful (from memory, the two had been colleagues before the stroke). But she also had a series of programmes as presenter, where she was just too hard to follow.

Then there are two lady comedians who are hard to listen to due to impaired speech. One of them I think calls herself "box ticker".

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470273

Postby XFool » January 4th, 2022, 7:00 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:Then there are two lady comedians who are hard to listen to due to impaired speech. One of them I think calls herself "box ticker".

Rosie Jones. She's disabled (cerebral palsy), gay and Northern! So probably hits all your buttons. :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000h7yh

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Re: How Good is Your Hearing?

#470275

Postby bungeejumper » January 4th, 2022, 7:26 pm

XFool wrote:TV production is not as it was. The earlier days studio production with a few actors in a room has gone, it's more like big film productions nowadays. Big sound effects, big music, big TV screens - but with tiny little speakers, in flat screens, that are worse than 1960s/70s TVs! (And stereo possibly making it worse)

Nope, it's not that. Soundbar under the TV, tuned and twiddled for optimum performance. Ours comes with balance presets for movies or music, or a third set of presets to customise to our own preferences. And none of that can get round the fact that Clive Myrie is crystal clear on our set, even from a noisy outside-broadcast street in Glasgow, while Tracey Whatsername from Banbury just isn't.

I'll make whatever allowances I need to for the fact that Clive's Received English accent is part of the reason why he got the BBC newsreader job in the first place and she didn't. :) But it's altogether more probable that they're not using the same quality of microphone equipment. Some of them are probably using lapel mikes rather than those big furry things that look like they've escaped from the Muppet Show. And they're probably recording to the sound box in the cameraman's pocket, because there's a camera team of one and a half. Or maybe none at all - just a glorified Zoom link.

I get all that, I really do. But it's not my ears that are failing - it's that I can tell the difference and the 25 year old on the mixing desk either can't, or doesn't think it's important. :evil:
Put all these together and you get... a lot of people ringing up the BBC to complain they can't hear what the actors are saying. Remember that BBC WW2 series? After the first few episode the BBC had to adjust the soundtrack mix level.

I think Poldark was supposed to have been the gold standard for inaudibility, wasn't it? I very rarely watch TV drama, though, so I'm happy to leave that question to others.

Harrumph again.

BJ


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