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Mystery Items No. 5

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#416937

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 2nd, 2021, 10:10 pm

jfgw wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:No. 6 digital magnifier.

RC


Not a digital magnifier.

Doesn't look as if anyone will get it without cheating. I wonder if this offers a clue? I'm sure I've seen it somewhere (maybe PCWorld) without knowing what it was.

[edit] Damn, mc2fool beat me to the same guess ...

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#416945

Postby jfgw » June 2nd, 2021, 11:50 pm

Cheating and then posting links is disrespectful of the time and effort that I have put into this and is unfair on those who want to play the game properly. I have always posted clues once people have started guessing and these have led to the correct answers. Take no. 4 as an example, I doubt whether anyone would have guessed it without the clues. If anyone has resisted the temptation to follow the links, I am happy to continue with no. 6, otherwise, that leaves no. 10.

Image

ReformedCharacter wrote:No. 10, looks like a long frame fixing, ie. plug with nail. But it looks rather long for that.

RC


Clues so far:
Not a frame fixing. The middle bit does screw in though.

A frame fixing has been mentioned. If you look at the photo in the OP, you will see that each end of the grey part is shaped like a wall plug and there is a helical groove in the middle.

The screw head is not big enough to fix anything.


The helical groove serves a purpose but it is irrelevant that it is helical. Circumferential grooves would have worked.


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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#416955

Postby Itsallaguess » June 3rd, 2021, 6:31 am

jfgw wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:
No. 10, looks like a long frame fixing, ie. plug with nail. But it looks rather long for that.


Clues so far:

Not a frame fixing. The middle bit does screw in though.

A frame fixing has been mentioned. If you look at the photo in the OP, you will see that each end of the grey part is shaped like a wall plug and there is a helical groove in the middle.

The screw head is not big enough to fix anything.


The helical groove serves a purpose but it is irrelevant that it is helical. Circumferential grooves would have worked.


I wonder, given that either end must 'go into something' as they look to be manufactured in the same way as a rawl-plug, if the grooves in the middle might act to stop any horizontal travel of water inside a wall cavity?

That might make the whole thing some sort of 'stabiliser', for use where the inner and outer layers of a cavity wall might need re-strengthening, perhaps after the failure of any previously constructed wall-ties?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#416976

Postby jfgw » June 3rd, 2021, 9:13 am

Itsallaguess wrote:I wonder, given that either end must 'go into something' as they look to be manufactured in the same way as a rawl-plug, if the grooves in the middle might act to stop any horizontal travel of water inside a wall cavity?

That might make the whole thing some sort of 'stabiliser', for use where the inner and outer layers of a cavity wall might need re-strengthening, perhaps after the failure of any previously constructed wall-ties?


Correct answer Itsallaguess. It is a remedial wall tie.

https://www.fischer.co.uk/en-gb/product ... ical-vbs-m


Julian F. G. W.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#416984

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 3rd, 2021, 9:44 am

jfgw wrote:Cheating and then posting links is disrespectful of the time and effort that I have put into this and is unfair on those who want to play the game properly.

I disagree. Posting a link isn't a spoiler, because noone who wants to "play properly" is compelled to follow the link.

That one had been bugging me precisely because I had seen one somewhere among devices like mice and keyboards, and never figured out (not that I tried) what it does. I think I had a vague idea it was some kind of specialised alternative to a pointing device, but it was hard to see how. When it appeared clear that noone was going to get it without cheating (you said yourself, noone was even trying) I took the view the time had come. Perhaps the fact two of us did so more-or-less simultaneously kind-of reinforces that?

[edit to add]

Take no. 4 as an example, I doubt whether anyone would have guessed it without the clues.


Indeed, I took the "past tense" and "household" clues. But I could never have got there, because I had no idea that such a thing ever existed. It might as well have been an antique Magrathean octant. I suspect #6 has a similar "wtf" aura about it.

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#416992

Postby jfgw » June 3rd, 2021, 10:10 am

With sufficient clues (which I tend to give when people make guesses), it would have been guessed. Take my original Mystery Items puzzle as an example, there was a specialised tool used by piano tuners. No-one would have guessed it without the clues, but two people guessed that it was used by a piano tuner. Someone did look up exactly what it was for but the item was mostly identified through the clues.

I am happy for people to say, "I give up" as this gives me a chance to give a big clue. If I had said, for example, "photographers might use one", I think that there is a good chance that the item would quickly have been guessed. It seemed too early to give such a big clue, however, since there had been so few guesses.

Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417004

Postby jfgw » June 3rd, 2021, 10:29 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Indeed, I took the "past tense" and "household" clues. But I could never have got there, because I had no idea that such a thing ever existed.

It is from this logic that it was revealed that it was part of a VCR and provided a major advancement toward the answer. This has been a group effort and what may not be obvious to one person may be to another. It was identified as an LED and not part of an encoder or tape loading sensor. It seemed to be the double-sidedness that proved confusing but its purpose was correctly guessed.


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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417010

Postby Gengulphus » June 3rd, 2021, 10:49 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
jfgw wrote:Cheating and then posting links is disrespectful of the time and effort that I have put into this and is unfair on those who want to play the game properly.

I disagree. Posting a link isn't a spoiler, because noone who wants to "play properly" is compelled to follow the link.

I don't quite agree with either of you. IMHO posting a spoiler is entirely OK, not just for this puzzle but for any puzzle posted on this board - PROVIDED the spoiler is 'signposted' and protected from being casually read before the reader has actually made a decision that they want to read it. The standard way to do that is the 'make the text colour closely match the background' trick, but a spoiler-signposted link whose displayed appearance doesn't indicate any aspect of the answer is another good way to do it.

So IMHO mc2fool's "Well I'll be surprised if anyone guesses no 6 ... I didn't even know such a thing existed! :o Spoiler. (Yes, I cheated!)" link was a spoiler - but an entirely fair one.

As for 'cheating', I'm not entirely certain what activity is being described! But it does seem to me that we'll all have varying methods of tackling such puzzles, and one persons 'ingenuity' can be another person's 'cheating'...

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417019

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 3rd, 2021, 11:04 am

Gengulphus wrote:So IMHO mc2fool's "Well I'll be surprised if anyone guesses no 6 ... I didn't even know such a thing existed! :o Spoiler. (Yes, I cheated!)" link was a spoiler - but an entirely fair one.

Sounds to me like agreeing with me. :)
As for 'cheating', I'm not entirely certain what activity is being described! But it does seem to me that we'll all have varying methods of tackling such puzzles, and one persons 'ingenuity' can be another person's 'cheating'...


Well, both mc2fool and I thought we'd cheated. After all, if it were a regular pub quiz, any googling would be considered cheating! As it happens, I had cheated some time earlier, but only posted when I thought the time seemed right. But I agree with your point: it's only cheating because it finds an answer we didn't (couldn't) know or guess.

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417058

Postby jfgw » June 3rd, 2021, 12:53 pm

While a spoiler may be hidden, there is a big temptation to look.

I do think that, as the puzzle-setter, I should be the one to decide when to reveal the answer. These puzzles take a bit of time to prepare and I felt that no. 6 had not been allowed to run its course. I gave one clue (not audio-related) and have since stated that a photographer might use one. If anyone does want to keep guessing, I will keep answering but I suspect that there are few (if any) who have not read the spoilers.

That is my view and I appreciate that other people have different ideas. I am happy to leave it there.

I hope you enjoyed this puzzle. It is getting increasingly difficult to come up with new ideas for mystery items as I have only a limited amount of clutter lying around :) Maybe some of you have a few things that you could post pictures of, even just one or two items.


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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417072

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 3rd, 2021, 1:40 pm

jfgw wrote:While a spoiler may be hidden, there is a big temptation to look.


Indeed. When mathematical/logical puzzles get posted here and someone solves them with spoiler before I do, I have to take the conscious decision whether to look. That could go either way, depending on how motivated I feel to try it myself.

But I don't rally see that following the link we posted is really any different to using google to find that link as I did. And the fact it's the same link when the product itself is not unique suggests rather strongly that mc2fool reached it through the same process!

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417248

Postby jfgw » June 4th, 2021, 9:13 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Indeed. When mathematical/logical puzzles get posted here and someone solves them with spoiler before I do, I have to take the conscious decision whether to look. That could go either way, depending on how motivated I feel to try it myself.

But I don't rally see that following the link we posted is really any different to using google to find that link as I did. And the fact it's the same link when the product itself is not unique suggests rather strongly that mc2fool reached it through the same process!


Googling takes more effort than clicking a link.

Regarding looking at spoilers, speaking personally, it feels good to be the first to post a correct answer and, once a (correct) spoiler has been posted, there is slightly less incentive to try to solve the puzzle myself. (Whether or not I try will depend greatly upon how much time I have.) I think I would be more inclined to look at a spoiler showing a Lemon's own workings than an external link to a solution. If someone posted, "I solved the puzzle and this is a link to a solution which is the same as mine", I would probably be more inclined to look than if someone posted, "I didn't solve the puzzle but I found the answer by Googling, here's the link".


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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417264

Postby Gengulphus » June 4th, 2021, 10:38 am

jfgw wrote:Regarding looking at spoilers, speaking personally, it feels good to be the first to post a correct answer and, once a (correct) spoiler has been posted, there is slightly less incentive to try to solve the puzzle myself. (Whether or not I try will depend greatly upon how much time I have.) I think I would be more inclined to look at a spoiler showing a Lemon's own workings than an external link to a solution. If someone posted, "I solved the puzzle and this is a link to a solution which is the same as mine", I would probably be more inclined to look than if someone posted, "I didn't solve the puzzle but I found the answer by Googling, here's the link".

Agreed with that - but assuming I haven't yet solved the puzzle myself, reading any posted spoiler basically amounts to giving up on solving it myself. So as long as the spoiler is adequately 'signposted' as being a spoiler (i.e. makes it clear that it is a spoiler without revealing the answer or even part of it to a casual glance, instead requiring a deliberate action on my part to read the answer), I'm not going to take that action without making a conscious decision to give up on solving it myself.

It's impossible to prevent readers making such conscious decisions to give up on puzzles and trying to find the answer without solving the puzzles themselves, and for most puzzles, it's impossible to prevent them finding the answer pretty quickly by means such as Googling or using brute-force chess programs. So basically, I regard trying to remove the temptation to follow such shortcut methods of finding the solution as a pretty futile endeavour: those who want to solve the puzzle themselves won't use those measures (other than inadvertently as a result of inadequate 'signposting'), those who don't (or no longer) want to solve it themselves won't be prevented from using them.

So as far as I am concerned, it's inadequate 'signposting' and concealing of spoilers that needs to be discouraged. And in that context, I think I'll mention that when a puzzle is like this one, with ten independent parts, I would strongly prefer all spoilers to all of the parts to be adequately 'signposted' and concealed until after all parts have been correctly solved. The reason for that preference is simple: I saw the thread on Tuesday morning (not having looked at TLF on Monday evening due to being tired after a bank holiday day out) when it was already reasonably long. I had ideas about a couple of the objects and so looked down the thread to see whether it would be worth posting those ideas - no real point doing so if others had already posted them and/or had identified the objects. As it turned out, it wasn't worth posting my ideas - but in the process of establishing that, it was impossible to avoid seeing unconcealed spoilers like "jelly crimp" about other objects. I'm not hugely upset by that (I reckon I stood no chance of identifying the objects concerned, having e.g. never been aware of encountering even the idea of a jelly crimp!), but I would have preferred to make the decision to give up on them myself! This sort of thing strikes me as far more likely to spoil someone's enjoyment of the puzzle than a "Spoiler" link that they would have to actively choose to click (or hover over and carefully examine the link expansion) to see any more detail.

Gengulphus

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417290

Postby jfgw » June 4th, 2021, 12:12 pm

Gengulphus wrote:So as far as I am concerned, it's inadequate 'signposting' and concealing of spoilers that needs to be discouraged. And in that context, I think I'll mention that when a puzzle is like this one, with ten independent parts, I would strongly prefer all spoilers to all of the parts to be adequately 'signposted' and concealed until after all parts have been correctly solved...

That is a valid point. I see the group effort and the leaving of clues when people make suggestions as being a part of the puzzle, however. Maybe people who immediately identify an object should be encouraged to obscure their answers.

Gengulphus wrote:I saw the thread on Tuesday morning (not having looked at TLF on Monday evening due to being tired after a bank holiday day out) when it was already reasonably long. I had ideas about a couple of the objects and so looked down the thread to see whether it would be worth posting those ideas - no real point doing so if others had already posted them and/or had identified the objects. As it turned out, it wasn't worth posting my ideas - but in the process of establishing that, it was impossible to avoid seeing unconcealed spoilers like "jelly crimp" about other objects.


If I post any more mystery items, what do you think of the idea of posting them one at a time? I could request that spoilers be hidden and the guessing game could continue for those others who had sufficient willpower not to look. (I might try this.)



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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417308

Postby bungeejumper » June 4th, 2021, 1:02 pm

jfgw wrote:If I post any more mystery items, what do you think of the idea of posting them one at a time? I could request that spoilers be hidden and the guessing game could continue for those others who had sufficient willpower not to look. (I might try this.)

Whichever way you do it, jfgw, please keep on doing it. :D I am always amazed at the stuff you seem to find for your photos, and I think you handle the conflicting demands of the task (including spoilers) really well.

For the record, I immediately got the jelly connectors and the hydraulic chair spring, but not many others. Deliciously intriguing. Thanks again!

BJ

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Re: Mystery Items No. 5

#417335

Postby AleisterCrowley » June 4th, 2021, 2:31 pm

It was a (VHS) learning experience!
'I never knew they did it like that" !
Thanks for the entertainment :)


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