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'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

AsleepInYorkshire
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'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#347936

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » October 15th, 2020, 11:36 am

'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'
Louise Crunden has applied for 72 jobs in the past two months and she is starting to lose hope.

In the Dearne Valley, South Yorkshire, people know only too well how that feels.
At one point 80% of men relied on the area's coalmines for work, until these were closed abruptly in the 1980s. The effects are still being felt today, charities say. Crime rates are high, while both life expectancy and educational achievement are below average.


The airline industry will recover with time. However, the same cannot be said about the coal mines of Yorkshire. Doncaster seems to have done a reasonable job of adapting to "pit closures".

AiY

bungeejumper
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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348282

Postby bungeejumper » October 16th, 2020, 3:25 pm

Tragically, it's a consequence of building an entire town (or indeed an entire city) on a single activity. Liverpool dockers and Sheffield metal-bashers could have told the same story. And so could Luxembourg, which only became a tax haven after the steelworks were forced to close. (I remember driving into the principality back in 1969 - you could see Luxembourg twenty miles off by the vast yellow cloud that hung over it!) Same would have gone for Middlesbrough at one time, I guess?

Getting out those messes, Corby-style, has historically involved a combination of government determination and local flexibility. But who's going to invest the cash in Crawley when we might have a covid vaccine next year to return everything to where it was before? ;)

As it happens, the FT has a piece this weekend about unemployed pilots who are currently retraining as financial market traders - apparently the skillsets and aptitudes are more similar than you might suppose. (https://www.ft.com/content/ee20d5a2-e76 ... bfeafcb482 for subscription holders, or try googling for "Flying an aircraft requires the same concise decision-making as betting on financial markets, so a London firm decided to experiment".)

The skills involve making split-second judgements in constantly-changing situations where you're not necessarily in complete control of everything. The main difference is that it's all right for a fund manager to make the occasional major cock-up. :|

BJ

dealtn
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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348293

Postby dealtn » October 16th, 2020, 3:57 pm

bungeejumper wrote:Tragically, it's a consequence of building an entire town (or indeed an entire city) on a single activity. Liverpool dockers and Sheffield metal-bashers could have told the same story. And so could Luxembourg, which only became a tax haven after the steelworks were forced to close. (I remember driving into the principality back in 1969 - you could see Luxembourg twenty miles off by the vast yellow cloud that hung over it!) Same would have gone for Middlesbrough at one time, I guess?

Getting out those messes, Corby-style, has historically involved a combination of government determination and local flexibility. But who's going to invest the cash in Crawley when we might have a covid vaccine next year to return everything to where it was before? ;)

As it happens, the FT has a piece this weekend about unemployed pilots who are currently retraining as financial market traders - apparently the skillsets and aptitudes are more similar than you might suppose. (https://www.ft.com/content/ee20d5a2-e76 ... bfeafcb482 for subscription holders, or try googling for "Flying an aircraft requires the same concise decision-making as betting on financial markets, so a London firm decided to experiment".)

The skills involve making split-second judgements in constantly-changing situations where you're not necessarily in complete control of everything. The main difference is that it's all right for a fund manager to make the occasional major cock-up. :|

BJ


Very few financial markets resemble that. Most are 50:50 directional low risk/cost outcomes. I suspect flying is 99%:1% (boring vs exciting) and even that 1% is probably split 99.99% safe and manageable vs 0.01% disaster.

I don't have any wish to go through a paywall, but I suspect I would only annoy myself reading a journalist's view on financial market traders.

bungeejumper
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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348297

Postby bungeejumper » October 16th, 2020, 4:04 pm

dealtn wrote:Very few financial markets resemble that. Most are 50:50 directional low risk/cost outcomes. I suspect flying is 99%:1% (boring vs exciting) and even that 1% is probably split 99.99% safe and manageable vs 0.01% disaster.

I don't have any wish to go through a paywall, but I suspect I would only annoy myself reading a journalist's view on financial market traders.

Fair enough. Let me make sure I've got that? You don't agree with an article that you haven't read, and you've already made up your mind about the people who wrote it, so why bother with trying? Because you know better than whatever it is they were trying to say, which of course you don't know about?

I have a very nice pair of blinkers here that I reckon would be just your size. ;)

BJ

dealtn
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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348299

Postby dealtn » October 16th, 2020, 4:16 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
dealtn wrote:Very few financial markets resemble that. Most are 50:50 directional low risk/cost outcomes. I suspect flying is 99%:1% (boring vs exciting) and even that 1% is probably split 99.99% safe and manageable vs 0.01% disaster.

I don't have any wish to go through a paywall, but I suspect I would only annoy myself reading a journalist's view on financial market traders.

Fair enough. Let me make sure I've got that? You don't agree with an article that you haven't read, and you've already made up your mind about the people who wrote it, so why bother with trying? Because you know better than whatever it is they were trying to say, which of course you don't know about?

I have a very nice pair of blinkers here that I reckon would be just your size. ;)

BJ

bungeejumper wrote:
The skills involve making split-second judgements in constantly-changing situations where you're not necessarily in complete control of everything. The main difference is that it's all right for a fund manager to make the occasional major cock-up.

BJ


Maybe I should be clearer.

I worked for 25 years in the City as a financial market trader. I don't recognise this statement as reflecting the norm at all. I doubt I was ever in complete control of everything.

I have never flown a plane, but I suspect its a little bit like driving in that 99.99% of the time there is no physical (or financial) risk to me or any of my passengers. I suspect that in my time in the markets 99.99% of time there was risk, mainly symmetrical with 50% of the time I made money, 50% lost.

The only close comparison I can come to is (extreme) option trading, which has the moniker 99% boring 1% panic. That's a fairly specialist form of financial market trading. I managed a team of options traders, great guys, and very unlike the rest of the trading team, (and incidentally the last people I would ever want to fly me in a plane!).

I can recall probably on the fingers of one hand the number of articles I have read by financial journalists that didn't set me on edge in some way when writing about my former profession and colleagues. I am more involved in professional sport these days, and whilst journalists there are just as prone to misunderstanding, they are in the main better at what they do and open to discussion and correction.

If that makes me a blinker wearer in your eyes then so be it.

NomoneyNohoney
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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348668

Postby NomoneyNohoney » October 18th, 2020, 2:46 pm

I know a lady who worked as a flight attendant. She was made redundant, just took a job as some kind of nurse, and says she's never had to work so hard for such abysmal wages. No point to this really, just wanted to comment.

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348673

Postby Lootman » October 18th, 2020, 3:02 pm

NomoneyNohoney wrote:I know a lady who worked as a flight attendant. She was made redundant, just took a job as some kind of nurse, and says she's never had to work so hard for such abysmal wages.

The "nurses do such important work but are paid so little" line gets regularly trotted out. But pay is ultimately set by supply and demand, and the reality is that nurse training is something that many people can qualify for, as evidenced by the ease with which your flight attendant was retrained.

And when a lot of people can do a job, it is never going to pay a lot. So as unpopular as I suspect this view will be, I think nurses get paid about what they should be paid.

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348875

Postby absolutezero » October 19th, 2020, 10:25 am

Lootman wrote:
NomoneyNohoney wrote:I know a lady who worked as a flight attendant. She was made redundant, just took a job as some kind of nurse, and says she's never had to work so hard for such abysmal wages.

The "nurses do such important work but are paid so little" line gets regularly trotted out. But pay is ultimately set by supply and demand, and the reality is that nurse training is something that many people can qualify for, as evidenced by the ease with which your flight attendant was retrained.

And when a lot of people can do a job, it is never going to pay a lot. So as unpopular as I suspect this view will be, I think nurses get paid about what they should be paid.

And also, is this person a nurse or a "nurse"?
I'm always wary of title inflation.
See "engineer" (someone who fixes washing machines ain't an engineer), "lawyer" (a paralegal isn't to be confused with a barrister) etc.

NHS nurses earn good money (up to £40k onwards with experience), have a career ladder and have a public sector pension.
A "nurse" working in the local care home will be on minimum wage.

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348889

Postby didds » October 19th, 2020, 11:06 am

Lootman wrote:The "nurses do such important work but are paid so little" line gets regularly trotted out. But pay is ultimately set by supply and demand, and the reality is that nurse training is something that many people can qualify for


Really?

A 3 year degree, requiring A-levels or similar matriculation?

Over a decde ago now my wife - in her 40s - became an O.T.

As she had left school in the 70s with a couple of O-Levels/CSEs (long story) she basically had to start at the bottom with a year's access course at a local college to matriculate, then three years degree course with placements - four year's in total to qualify. The same would be true of anybody entering nursing - there is no "learn on the job" option in the UK any longer.

So Im sceptical of any claim that nursing training is some sort of easy path, and really dont see how a flight attendant could just retrain quickly in - short of them already having a suitable nursing qualification historically perhaps.

I am of course happy to be shown that somebody with a degree in another non-related subject, or no degree at all but suitable matriculation, can become a nurse in less than a three year degree etc :-)

cheers

didds

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#348924

Postby NomoneyNohoney » October 19th, 2020, 12:20 pm

I used the phrase "some kind of nurse" deliberately, as she is either a beginner/trainee or using an inflated description of her job, for better status. As a flight attendant, she always was a bit snooty so whatever her entry level job may be, I feel sure it's exaggerated.

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#349141

Postby flyer61 » October 20th, 2020, 10:16 am

As someone who has been flying planes for a living these last 40 years I think I am well qualified to comment on Pilots acumen for financial trading.

Pretty much non existent would be my take. Where they are good at is being sold expensive stuff by the likes of St James Place, snake oil 'you can be a trader' salesmen and many other dubious ventures.

Basically the majority are only interested in flying aeroplanes anything financial passes them by.

Do not under any circumstances encourage your children to think about a career as an airline pilot. The career has long gone and with Airbus recently completing a 2 years project on pilotless planes the future seems to be going only one way. Oh and for your £150k plus investment in getting a licence not to mention 2 years out of your life you will enter the most cyclical of industries where T's and C's are constantly reducing. Driving delivery vans may actually be a good calling...until they too are automated.

Cabin crew - the next time you go to a new home development do not be surprised to find the very nice lady showing you around, completing your reservation etc is actually a former cabin crew member. CC skills read across very well to flogging homes. In fact some of the best sales people I have ever met have completed stints as CC.

..and some of them make pretty good nurses too.

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#349151

Postby Mike4 » October 20th, 2020, 10:33 am

flyer61 wrote:
Basically the majority are only interested in flying aeroplanes anything financial passes them by.


In my experience anyone taken outside of their field of expertise tends to sink back down to being just a normal human, with feet of clay.

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#349161

Postby dealtn » October 20th, 2020, 11:11 am

Mike4 wrote:
flyer61 wrote:
Basically the majority are only interested in flying aeroplanes anything financial passes them by.


In my experience anyone taken outside of their field of expertise tends to sink back down to being just a normal human, with feet of clay.


Some of the best recruits to our industry were when we had "free-reign" on interviewing/employing/trialling individuals from all walks of life. Over time the job changed, and the suitability of some, changed with it. However with the process increasingly transferred (at least the initial filtering process) to an HR function the ability to hire someone actually with the skill set suited to the role diminished greatly.

By the end we had a graduate entry, with multiple clone like applicants, most of whom didn't work out (or last), although they were easily transferrable to other areas of the business so not a complete failure. Non-graduate entry was mainly through "poaching" and paying enormously, but usually good value nevertheless.

Towards the end of my employ we had (top down imposed) policies of no promotion for men, and recruitment to senior posts of women only, which made it difficult as a business. The goal of increasing female representation from <20% to >40% in "management roles" was achieved ahead of target though, and that box was duly ticked and celebrated by senior management and HR. Many couldn't help thinking a "better" outcome might have been achieved, even if it took longer, if it didn't involve the resignations and staff turnover of worthy male employees seeking pastures greener elsewhere.

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Re: 'I know pilots who are driving for Sainsbury's now'

#349314

Postby Mike4 » October 20th, 2020, 8:14 pm

dealtn wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
flyer61 wrote:
Basically the majority are only interested in flying aeroplanes anything financial passes them by.


In my experience anyone taken outside of their field of expertise tends to sink back down to being just a normal human, with feet of clay.


Some of the best recruits to our industry were when we had "free-reign" on interviewing/employing/trialling individuals from all walks of life. Over time the job changed, and the suitability of some, changed with it. However with the process increasingly transferred (at least the initial filtering process) to an HR function the ability to hire someone actually with the skill set suited to the role diminished greatly.

By the end we had a graduate entry, with multiple clone like applicants, most of whom didn't work out (or last), although they were easily transferrable to other areas of the business so not a complete failure. Non-graduate entry was mainly through "poaching" and paying enormously, but usually good value nevertheless.

Towards the end of my employ we had (top down imposed) policies of no promotion for men, and recruitment to senior posts of women only, which made it difficult as a business. The goal of increasing female representation from <20% to >40% in "management roles" was achieved ahead of target though, and that box was duly ticked and celebrated by senior management and HR. Many couldn't help thinking a "better" outcome might have been achieved, even if it took longer, if it didn't involve the resignations and staff turnover of worthy male employees seeking pastures greener elsewhere.


Funny you should say all that.I remember back in the late 70s getting a job the Tebbit way. I'd walked into reception at a medium sized engineering co in Staines, Mddx and said I was looking for a job as a draughtsman. Receptionist said hang on, I'll call Bruce the design office manager. Bruce said "come up now for an interview". Bruce seemed to like me and said he would get the personnel manager to send me a letter offering me a job and setting out the terms. None of this CV tosh back then, Bruce thought I'd be a useful person so HE instructed THEM to employ me.

Also, my dear old departed dad was a big(ish) wheel in a household name engineering firm and he would never employ anyone with a degree. Said they may have all the letters after their names but rarely had the engineering nouse to keep a production line running.


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