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Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

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Howard
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384420

Postby Howard » February 7th, 2021, 12:30 pm

dspp wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Howard wrote:Any suggestions for the ideal charger installation would be appreciated. :)


Have you looked in to how much charging the car is expected to need given expected use? A three pin plug may be sufficient for your needs, especially in a multi-car household.

Howard wrote:As a non electrician I have a feeling that the chargers being offered are over complicated as I believe charging times etc can all be set by the car's software......

...Looking at Electric Car owners discussion boards it's relatively easy to get a charger installed next to the power supply but as soon as detached garages are involved the costs mount.

...I've written this post to highlight some of the issues about transition to an electric car - hope the comments are helpful.


In all fairness Howard this appears to be a feature of the cost of electrical work in the UK which is unlikely to be a factor for most BEV users, or for those who should they decide it is their preferred solution can't afford it, and as such whilst understandably annoying probably isn't going to have a massive impact on BEV adoption.


Howard,

Indeed, half of these costs are due to the cost of any qualified technical tradesperson in the UK, combined with the physics/engineering cost of running a lengthy bit of high current cable*. Re the cost of the charger itself there are a number of things going on. 1) A fight between car companies and electrical companies for control, with not all car companies seeing things the same way; 2) a fight between the householder and the electricity company for control. I have previously pointed out how to do it as cheaply as reasonably possible whilst remaining code-compliant, but that means you won't get the bells & whistles of cheap tariffs. Really you have to make a choice.

regards, dspp


* It would be best if all houses/roads/etc being built today had the relevant cabling installed from birth. Unfortunately not so.


Yes, thank you for your comments. And, yes I have looked back at your suggestions for the simplest charging connections. For anyone else interested they are here : viewtopic.php?p=358829#p358829

Now that I'm seriously considering changing to a BEV, I must admit that I understand your comments about the conflict between cars, energy suppliers, charger suppliers and government agencies better.

Forgive me if I rehash your advice as an "electrical layman" now I think I understand it better.

Energy suppliers' websites push their apps for controlling charging. But BEVs have more sophisticated apps which better control how much charge goes into the car battery. These two apps will almost certainly conflict. Also energy suppliers push their chosen chargers and installers who set prices high because they can get an OLEV grant for the consumer. The energy suppliers car tariffs also place constraints on the consumer. For example Octopus have only a four hour window for their lower overnight car charging tariff. This means that a powerful charger must be used if the battery needs a serious top up in a short time.

This question must be asked: is it environmentally sensible to change to Octopus, be forced to have a virtually new electricity meter removed and replaced by a different smart meter, then to have a new car charger installed to handle the power required to match their tariff? Lots of diesel van driving involved to achieve this.

So if we go ahead with a BEV, as a second car it seems sensible to follow your suggestion and go with a simple 16amp or 32amp type 2 socket installation. This means a lower cost installation and no conflicting app required from the energy company!

Hope this is helpful to anyone else considering a BEV. Correct me if I'm wrong!

regards

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384432

Postby dspp » February 7th, 2021, 12:59 pm

Howard wrote:
dspp wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Have you looked in to how much charging the car is expected to need given expected use? A three pin plug may be sufficient for your needs, especially in a multi-car household.



In all fairness Howard this appears to be a feature of the cost of electrical work in the UK which is unlikely to be a factor for most BEV users, or for those who should they decide it is their preferred solution can't afford it, and as such whilst understandably annoying probably isn't going to have a massive impact on BEV adoption.


Howard,

Indeed, half of these costs are due to the cost of any qualified technical tradesperson in the UK, combined with the physics/engineering cost of running a lengthy bit of high current cable*. Re the cost of the charger itself there are a number of things going on. 1) A fight between car companies and electrical companies for control, with not all car companies seeing things the same way; 2) a fight between the householder and the electricity company for control. I have previously pointed out how to do it as cheaply as reasonably possible whilst remaining code-compliant, but that means you won't get the bells & whistles of cheap tariffs. Really you have to make a choice.

regards, dspp


* It would be best if all houses/roads/etc being built today had the relevant cabling installed from birth. Unfortunately not so.


Yes, thank you for your comments. And, yes I have looked back at your suggestions for the simplest charging connections. For anyone else interested they are here : viewtopic.php?p=358829#p358829

Now that I'm seriously considering changing to a BEV, I must admit that I understand your comments about the conflict between cars, energy suppliers, charger suppliers and government agencies better.

Forgive me if I rehash your advice as an "electrical layman" now I think I understand it better.

Energy suppliers' websites push their apps for controlling charging. But BEVs have more sophisticated apps which better control how much charge goes into the car battery. These two apps will almost certainly conflict. Also energy suppliers push their chosen chargers and installers who set prices high because they can get an OLEV grant for the consumer. The energy suppliers car tariffs also place constraints on the consumer. For example Octopus have only a four hour window for their lower overnight car charging tariff. This means that a powerful charger must be used if the battery needs a serious top up in a short time.

This question must be asked: is it environmentally sensible to change to Octopus, be forced to have a virtually new electricity meter removed and replaced by a different smart meter, then to have a new car charger installed to handle the power required to match their tariff? Lots of diesel van driving involved to achieve this.

So if we go ahead with a BEV, as a second car it seems sensible to follow your suggestion and go with a simple 16amp or 32amp type 2 socket installation. This means a lower cost installation and no conflicting app required from the energy company!

Hope this is helpful to anyone else considering a BEV. Correct me if I'm wrong!

regards

Howard


Yes, that is roughly how I see it. There are a couple of other factors. Domestic battery storage and/or domestic solar PV can also affect the overall preferred solution. Also it is generally more cost-effective to incorporate home improvements as packages, rather than one by one. For example fitting internal insulation is best done as part of a redecorating project, and prior to fitting an ASHP. Best to think these things through as packages.

In my particular case I am (at my GF's) looking to increase from her existing 4kW of solar PV (exact, 3.8kW) to 8kW and hopefully in time 12kW. Because the G83 limit is at the 4kW level that means she will need to fit an export limiter, and the code says that the metering/control associated with that cannot be WiFi and must be hard-wired*. In the case of my GF's crumbling pile that means digging trenches, installing two sets of conduit/ducting, between three different locations to achieve. So I am also considering adding in the additional ducts to also future-proof the (desired one day) battery storage, and also to service the actual charging outlets for the fleet of aged wrecks that hopefully will one day become BEVs. And then in her case that means I probably ought to pay attention to various underground water pipes whilst there are trenches everywhere. And for that reason I have counselled her for the last few years to delay that project and first come towards a conclusion on the series of internal "make the crumbling pile warm & comfortable and affordable internally" projects before turning to the next phase of the external ones. On the other hand I have for 20-years been recommending to a parent that they install a 40A supply to their detached double garage ..... and they have kept putting off installing solar because they didn't have that cable.

regards, dspp

(* Which is understandable, I would likely have voted for such a proposal if I had been involved, though these days I am not. )

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384445

Postby odysseus2000 » February 7th, 2021, 1:35 pm

There are many regulations over what a house owner can legally do concerning their electrical supply.

Most of these regulations concern the need to have a qualified person make the connection.

However, many independent electricians will let you lay in the wiring and then come and do the connection, giving the cable runs, trenches what ever a look over first to be sure they are acceptable.

In many ways this is how electricians work, contracting out the non electrical & just doing the connection.

This can both save some money & avoid the mess that some impatient maniac with a mini digger will make to ones garden.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384452

Postby scrumpyjack » February 7th, 2021, 1:52 pm

Any advice much appreciated!

I would like to get a BEV in a year or two and have some likely problems re power supply & charging points.

We are single phase and had the mains supply upgraded recently to 100 amp by UK Power Networks in order to support a large heat pump for our pool. We had a new shielded very heavy duty cable installed to the other end of the house for the heat pump, with a new junction box etc there. It has a 60 amp fuse. The Heat Pump uses about 20 amps when running but can spike higher when starting up. Ideally we would have the BEV charge point run from the new junction box. Would that 60 amp supply support both the heat pump and the BEV charge point, and if not might one have a switching arrangement so the BEV charger and Heat Pump could not run at the same time?

The house is over a hundred yards from the road so upgrading to 3 phase would probably be expensive though the cable would not have to go over anyone else's land.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384513

Postby dspp » February 7th, 2021, 4:40 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Any advice much appreciated!

I would like to get a BEV in a year or two and have some likely problems re power supply & charging points.

We are single phase and had the mains supply upgraded recently to 100 amp by UK Power Networks in order to support a large heat pump for our pool. We had a new shielded very heavy duty cable installed to the other end of the house for the heat pump, with a new junction box etc there. It has a 60 amp fuse. The Heat Pump uses about 20 amps when running but can spike higher when starting up. Ideally we would have the BEV charge point run from the new junction box. Would that 60 amp supply support both the heat pump and the BEV charge point, and if not might one have a switching arrangement so the BEV charger and Heat Pump could not run at the same time?

The house is over a hundred yards from the road so upgrading to 3 phase would probably be expensive though the cable would not have to go over anyone else's land.


You probably don't need to do anything, just use the existing 60A cable. The installing electrician will calculate an appropriate diversity factor and fuse the BEV charger accordingly.

regards, dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384811

Postby tjh290633 » February 8th, 2021, 4:27 pm

The article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ox-tricks/ may be worth reading (It may be behind a paywall).

As it happens, the UK is the world leader in the rarified field of isotope batteries. A British-Australian start-up with research operations in Cumbria has found a way to harness gamma rays from the radioactive decay of cobalt-60. Infinite Power thinks it can cut costs to levels that take your breath away. “It is the cheapest source of electricity on the planet,” says Robert McLeod, the chief executive.

The batteries can be used for anything from charging posts for electric vehicles to full-sized power plants for cities, generating cheap baseload electricity. This power can be used to balance the grid as intermittent wind and solar become the backbone of the system, but also switch to the production of “green” hydrogen from electrolysis at off peak-times.


TJH

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#399113

Postby TUK020 » March 26th, 2021, 8:45 am

Article in FT today:
This electric vehicle start-up just became the largest UK company listing in history
And pretty much nobody has heard of it.


https://www.ft.com/content/fb516262-1a0 ... il:content

Electric van maker Arrival merged with Spac on Nasdaq

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#399117

Postby BobbyD » March 26th, 2021, 8:55 am

TUK020 wrote:Article in FT today:
This electric vehicle start-up just became the largest UK company listing in history
And pretty much nobody has heard of it.


https://www.ft.com/content/fb516262-1a0 ... il:content

Electric van maker Arrival merged with Spac on Nasdaq


Arguably it's decision to try and reverse the mass production fad of the last century is more interesting than 'just' another crazy valuation. I'm not sure it's an entirely sane decision, but it is different.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#399125

Postby TUK020 » March 26th, 2021, 9:14 am

The bit in the article that made a lot of sense was the comment that commercial vehicles will switch to electric faster than private cars.
Commercial operators more sensitive to running costs.
Vehicles running fixed routes with known mileage.
And I am guessing a lot of them will be able to schedule charging of vehicles over a pooled number of rapid chargers.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#399167

Postby odysseus2000 » March 26th, 2021, 11:16 am

TUK020 wrote:The bit in the article that made a lot of sense was the comment that commercial vehicles will switch to electric faster than private cars.
Commercial operators more sensitive to running costs.
Vehicles running fixed routes with known mileage.
And I am guessing a lot of them will be able to schedule charging of vehicles over a pooled number of rapid chargers.


There are electric Amazon delivery vans operating all over the UK, likely benefiting from the arguments you note.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#399176

Postby BobbyD » March 26th, 2021, 11:31 am

TUK020 wrote:The bit in the article that made a lot of sense was the comment that commercial vehicles will switch to electric faster than private cars.
Commercial operators more sensitive to running costs.
Vehicles running fixed routes with known mileage.
And I am guessing a lot of them will be able to schedule charging of vehicles over a pooled number of rapid chargers.


A lot of those routes aren't just fixed, but surprisingly short. From memory when VW designed the e-crafter they found the average milage of a last mile delivery van in a city was somewhere around 30-50 miles a day. That's a big market right there, and with people who aren't going to insist on a thousand mile battery so they can drive to Scotland and back without stopping in the middle of winter against the wind in both directions...

The legal restrictions on commercial drivers also make life a lot easier for purveyors of electric vehicles. Scania's aim for their next generation of electric lorries is for a vehicle which can pull 40 tonnes for 4 1/2 hours and recharge in 45 minutes. That's a lorry which can pull the maximum load allowed in the EU for the maximum continuous period a driver can stay on the road, and which recharges in the duration of his legally mandated break. You couldn't really ask for a better design brief...

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#399675

Postby Howard » March 28th, 2021, 12:08 am

BobbyD wrote:
Howard wrote:Any suggestions for the ideal charger installation would be appreciated. :)


Have you looked in to how much charging the car is expected to need given expected use? A three pin plug may be sufficient for your needs, especially in a multi-car household.

Howard wrote:As a non electrician I have a feeling that the chargers being offered are over complicated as I believe charging times etc can all be set by the car's software.


I'd expect most fully featured chargers are bought because they give the customer a sense of being future proofed.


BobbyD

You may be amused to hear that you were right all along about the charging requirements for a second car.

I had to wait for the final installation of a 7kW charger so initially charged our new BEV with the "Granny Charger" plugged into a 13 amp socket. It actually only supplied 10 amps for some reason. By the morning the car was charged to the 80% level I'd set using the car's software. (I intend to wait till the car is down to about 20% before charging back to 80% unless we are planning a 200 mile plus journey the next day). This appears to be the best approach to maintain the longest battery life. (Yes, it's a leased car, but I like the idea of looking after the battery).

Now, despite using the car a lot, with a 280 mile range and no need to keep topping up, I've only used the 7kW charger once. To be fair, it looks good and does come with a fancy app for my phone - completely useless because the KIA phone app is much more suited to controlling the charging. :?

Thank you for suggesting a crumb of comfort. Yes, I'm future proofed! But at a cost of just under £750. :)

Hopefully I will recover some of the "investment" in charging once Octopus install a smart meter and change me to their cheap tariff which applies from 12.30 - 4.00 am,which does require a fast charger to get maximum benefit.

The moral for any readers who are considering a BEV as a second car is to see whether just plugging it into a 13 amp socket will be enough before investing in a fast charger.

Hope this is helpful advice.

regards

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#399742

Postby BobbyD » March 28th, 2021, 12:27 pm

Howard wrote:BobbyD

You may be amused to hear that you were right all along about the charging requirements for a second car....

Now, despite using the car a lot, with a 280 mile range and no need to keep topping up, I've only used the 7kW charger once. To be fair, it looks good and does come with a fancy app for my phone - completely useless because the KIA phone app is much more suited to controlling the charging. :?



The world would be a lot more efficient if people decided I was right before the fact rather than after, I'm tempted to change my username to Cassandra!

Think of it as a donation to the local electician's covid benevolent fund!

Glad the car's working out for you, sounds like a solid purchase.

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Electric Car Endeavours - Lucid

#401334

Postby GrahamPlatt » April 3rd, 2021, 10:11 am


Howard
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#407697

Postby Howard » April 28th, 2021, 2:44 pm

In case others are interested, I thought it might be helpful to update our experience with a BEV (a KIA Soul) as a second car.

It should be emphasised that we do not expect this car to do journeys of over 250 miles. But I have tested a high power public charger for fun. It will charge the car quickly.

So far, since delivery in mid March, the car has covered 600 miles. It replaced a three year old VW Golf 1.4 auto. We lease our cars on a personal lease and the monthly payment on the Soul is very similar to the VW.

The KIA has been impressive from the start. Apart from hire cars in the past I didn’t have any experience of Hyundai/KIA but was pleasantly surprised at the quality and feel of the car. More luxurious than the VW.

The driving controls and infotainment system are brilliant. Heated front seats and steering wheel heat up literally in the first minute or two of driving. (The car’s heating can be switched on just before a journey, useful if it is connected to its charger, so it doesn’t affect the range.)

The controls are better than the VW whose touchscreen was not ideal. Dabbing it whilst driving on country roads was always unsatisfactory. The KIA has physical buttons for the key SatNav and other controls as well as a responsive touchscreen and voice control similar to a mobile phone.

Mrs H just gets into a car and drives it and beyond selecting the radio/music she is happy with the default driving settings. It took about 15 minutes for her to be comfortable driving it after the Golf. So on default settings, no major differences driving this BEV from an ICE car.

I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the driving features of the car. When it was delivered it was fully charged and showed a range of 280 miles. Having read Tesla’s advice to not regularly charge their cars above 80%, to protect battery life, I decided to do the same for our car. (Yes it’s leased but it’s nice to follow best practice). So since March I have charged the car two or three times. Looking at my electricity usage, I’m guessing it’s cost a total of around £15 to keep the car up to 80% charge after 600 miles.

Given one has a home charger, in the morning a car like ours can always be as “full” as one wants.

I haven’t done any journey which runs the battery lower than 30% at this stage but it’s possible to estimate how the car will perform in contrasting conditions. I reckon if fully charged, driven carefully at low speeds in warm weather, the car will comfortably cover 300 miles before needing a charge. Driven at a constant 70 mph on the motorway in March rain and wind with the heating on, the range drops significantly down to around 220 miles. Around town I’m using around 4.6 kWh per mile and on the motorway this changes to around 3.5 kWh per mile (3.3 on a particularly cold and windy day). The car’s battery is rated at 64 kWH.

Driving the car I can’t tell when the battery regeneration braking changes to the normal disc brakes. It’s imperceptible. However the car does have some interesting characteristics. If a car in front brakes and I (purposely) don’t react, the KIA will begin to apply regenerative braking. This is gentle to start, but if one is brave/foolish and lets the gap in front get dangerously small the car will brake harder and harder. Obviously I haven’t tested it to destruction but I’m guessing it will perform an emergency stop if an accident looks inevitable. This safety feature is similar to the emergency braking on the Golf but it’s an advantage with a BEV because it’s easy to adjust the regeneration effect and in town the car will follow traffic and keep a sensible distance and every time we slow down the battery charge goes up!

The car is very quiet, with a little tyre noise on bad surfaces, and the acceleration is impressive.

If you read my previous posts you will see that a major disadvantage of a BEV is the upfront cost of installing a charger. This isn’t cheap! Others,may quote prices a lot less than the going rate I encountered - £600 plus. From my research, internet quotes of “from £400” soon change into much larger figures, even after Government grants, when one actually gets real quotes from installers and a local electrician. And the quasi diy suggestions are just not sensible when one looks at the earthing and safety issues involved in a 32 amp supply. The safety checklist which the grant process involves looked pretty thorough to me.

Overall, we are delighted with our BEV. Our electricity suppliers are Octopus and I could apply to them for a very cheap off peak supply (5p per kWh) but I’m not sure it will be worth the hassle as the energy cost of running a car which will do around 5k miles a year will not be that high.

regards

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#407718

Postby Howard » April 28th, 2021, 3:37 pm

I've just re-read my post above and realise that I've quoted the electricity consumption the wrong way round :? .

Around town I’m using around 4.6 kWh per mile and on the motorway this changes to around 3.5 kWh per mile (3.3 on a particularly cold and windy day). The car’s battery is rated at 64 kWH.

Should read:

Around town I’m getting around 4.6 miles per kWh and on the motorway this changes to around 3.5 miles per kWh (3.3 on a particularly cold and windy day). The car’s battery is rated at 64 kWH.

Sorry :oops:

It's all very new!

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#407885

Postby TUK020 » April 29th, 2021, 8:02 am

Howard,
thank you for the excellent update.

Please may I ask a hypothetical question - based on making the decision again if you knew what you knew now?

How would you rate the option of buying your old Golf from the lease company and running it privately versus a personal lease for the Kia?

tuk020

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#407968

Postby Howard » April 29th, 2021, 11:23 am

TUK020 wrote:Howard,
thank you for the excellent update.

Please may I ask a hypothetical question - based on making the decision again if you knew what you knew now?

How would you rate the option of buying your old Golf from the lease company and running it privately versus a personal lease for the Kia?

tuk020


You have asked me a very relevant question!

Ironically, yesterday I had a letter from British Car Auctions asking me if I wanted to buy the VW (their system obviously hadn’t been updated to recognise that it had been returned.) For those who don’t lease a car, they are generally the organisation the leasing company will use to dispose of the returned cars and they decide the price.

In February I did think hard about whether to buy the VW as it was low mileage and immaculate. It was an ideal second car. My only criticism of it was that its touchscreen SatNav and infotainment system was not terribly good.

As you may know from my other postings, I’ve always been interested in cars, so the idea of driving the latest technology is appealing. I fully understand that others may not share my approach.

The main reasons for changing were

I keep an eye on leasing deals, so can spot when attractive offers are available
We’d leased a PHEV which was a brilliant car and introduced me to the joys of an electric motor and the ease of recharging
I’d previously driven two BEVs, both impressed me
The subsidies for BEVs early this year meant that leasing prices dropped
Covid lockdown caused the prices of second hand low mileage ICE family hatchbacks to increase substantially. This meant that the financial penalty for returning the VW early was very small
Purchasing the VW from BCA/VW Financial Services would be less attractive as the car value was elevated by the Covid factor (to be honest, I didn’t check this with BCA but looked at Autotrader to get an idea of pricing)
The KIA Soul had brilliant reviews and its range was higher than most other BEVs.

As this is an investment site I can hopefully add a couple of philosophical investing comments. Having invested any surplus income over 30 plus years and made a reasonable return (around 8% pa after tax) I’m in a comfortable position and can afford new cars. Delayed gratification has its benefits when you are retired. Like other investors one learns lessons over the years , market plunges can be painful and in 2000 my portfolio dropped by a sickening amount and I remember later ruefully remarking to Mrs H that I should have sold some shares in 1999 and bought a Porsche (or three!), enjoyed driving them for a couple of years and they would have depreciated dramatically less than my portfolio.

Your question is really valid for a second reason because I have to decide what to do when my ICE BMW lease ends later this year. The situation is rather different as this is a lovely car, quiet, smooth and with brilliant technology and I don’t think a new car will offer any tangible improvements. Its range is over 600 miles, hence it fits nicely with a BEV second car. Because it was expensive and large by comparison to the VW, the depreciation will be relatively higher and the Covid situation has probably depressed the value of larger cars. So I will definitely get a purchase price from BCA/Leasing company as it’s very likely I might buy the car and keep it for a few years.

Long answer, but hopefully gives an idea of the reasons for changing.

Can I add a flippant but fun comment. Our bright blue electric car has caused lots of positive comments, questions and jokes from our neighbours. It’s approved by the woke middle classes! And the Tesco click and collect staff approve too. :)

regards

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#407977

Postby staffordian » April 29th, 2021, 11:34 am

Sorry if I'm hijacking this fascinating discussion, but I wonder if anyone can answer a question I have about EVs in general. Most (all?) use regen in lieu of braking to slow down, and some can almost be driven using only the loud pedal where the level of regen is high enough for quite sharp braking.

I'm just wondering if this regen activates the brake lights.

I'm thinking of a scenario where an inattentive motorist is following an EV and whether a sudden relatively sharp deceleration might catch a following driver unprepared should this not be the case.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408043

Postby odysseus2000 » April 29th, 2021, 1:36 pm

staffordian wrote:Sorry if I'm hijacking this fascinating discussion, but I wonder if anyone can answer a question I have about EVs in general. Most (all?) use regen in lieu of braking to slow down, and some can almost be driven using only the loud pedal where the level of regen is high enough for quite sharp braking.

I'm just wondering if this regen activates the brake lights.

I'm thinking of a scenario where an inattentive motorist is following an EV and whether a sudden relatively sharp deceleration might catch a following driver unprepared should this not be the case.



Seems to be manufacturer and amount of braking dependent.

As far as I know Tesla do turn on the rear brakes and this can be seen on the screen:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... on.112255/

There is much other discussion of other makes, but the consensus seems to be yes, but in some cases one has to cross a rate of braking threshold before the brake lights come on.

Regards,


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