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Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

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Howard
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408045

Postby Howard » April 29th, 2021, 1:37 pm

staffordian wrote:Sorry if I'm hijacking this fascinating discussion, but I wonder if anyone can answer a question I have about EVs in general. Most (all?) use regen in lieu of braking to slow down, and some can almost be driven using only the loud pedal where the level of regen is high enough for quite sharp braking.

I'm just wondering if this regen activates the brake lights.

I'm thinking of a scenario where an inattentive motorist is following an EV and whether a sudden relatively sharp deceleration might catch a following driver unprepared should this not be the case.


Watching our BEV from behind I think the the answer is that clever technology decides the answer. If the regeneration is very gentle nothing happens, if it is like normal gentle braking in an ICE car or more severe, the brake lights come on. I believe this is true if the car's cruise control holds the speed constant going downhill but I haven't actually checked this for the current car.

The collision avoidance system in the KIA is the same as in any new car whatever its fuel. In the event of an imminent collision the brakes will come on whatever the driver does. It was certainly true for our previous Golf.

In practice our BEV behaves almost exactly like a ICE car in virtually all respects unless, like me, you play with the regeneration controls when the driving experience can be slightly different. So, if you choose this, in city driving, the car will keep a sensible distance from the vehicle in front and will match its speed and will stop as the traffic stops. However one can reduce the automatic braking and just use the foot brakes like any other car. Ironically then one still gets the same regeneration effect but has the tiresome responsibility of pushing a brake pedal with one's foot!

regards

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408104

Postby odysseus2000 » April 29th, 2021, 4:08 pm

One should also note that a car fitted with anti-collision systems will be monitoring the car in front at around 30 frames per second if using optics, less with radar and will be able to calculate whether it is braking or accelerating even if there are no brake lights to guide the algorithm.

No human driver can have this kind of accurate knowledge and the human must instead rely on brake lights as a signal to apply his/her brakes.

According to a neighbour, who ran a scrap yard, most of the cars he took in with accident damage were either from the car having run into something or something having run into the back of the car.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408123

Postby BobbyD » April 29th, 2021, 5:14 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:According to a neighbour, who ran a scrap yard, most of the cars he took in with accident damage were either from the car having run into something or something having run into the back of the car.


So a majority of cars he took in either ran in to something in front of them, or were run in to by something that they were in front of. Never saw that coming...

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408128

Postby dealtn » April 29th, 2021, 5:42 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:One should also note that a car fitted with anti-collision systems will be monitoring the car in front at around 30 frames per second if using optics, less with radar and will be able to calculate whether it is braking or accelerating even if there are no brake lights to guide the algorithm.

No human driver can have this kind of accurate knowledge and the human must instead rely on brake lights as a signal to apply his/her brakes.

According to a neighbour, who ran a scrap yard, most of the cars he took in with accident damage were either from the car having run into something or something having run into the back of the car.

Regards,


"must instead rely on brake lights?" You can also use your eyes and brain to assess the (developing) situation too, not just be triggered by a change in the brightness of a red light. In fact I would be more concerned by a driver whose behaviour was determined by fixating on a pair of lights in front.

Are you actually a driver?

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408131

Postby odysseus2000 » April 29th, 2021, 5:56 pm

dealtn wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:One should also note that a car fitted with anti-collision systems will be monitoring the car in front at around 30 frames per second if using optics, less with radar and will be able to calculate whether it is braking or accelerating even if there are no brake lights to guide the algorithm.

No human driver can have this kind of accurate knowledge and the human must instead rely on brake lights as a signal to apply his/her brakes.

According to a neighbour, who ran a scrap yard, most of the cars he took in with accident damage were either from the car having run into something or something having run into the back of the car.

Regards,


"must instead rely on brake lights?" You can also use your eyes and brain to assess the (developing) situation too, not just be triggered by a change in the brightness of a red light. In fact I would be more concerned by a driver whose behaviour was determined by fixating on a pair of lights in front.

Are you actually a driver?


Yes I am a driver.

The importance of brake lights in avoiding collisions was illustrated with the development of high centre brake lights that are now on all cars as far as I know.

Previously the brake lights were only low down, in the cluster with driving lights, indicators etc and then it was realised that these lights might not be as effective as one central high brake light.

Of course the auto companies brought out a ton of experts to say that two rear low down brake lights were fine, but with field tests the reduction in rear end collisions with the installation of a centre high brake light were so good that they became standard.

The conclusion of this research is that human drivers do need brake lights and that single high centre make a big improvement.

Humans, however, are slow with typical response times in the 10-100 milli-seconds (sure race drivers are better but most drivers are not race drivers), where as vision based systems continually monitor vehicle to vehicle distance on time scales of about 30 frames per second per camera and can react much more quickly than humans.

Most modern cars have some kind of collision avoidance system which were installed as they, when tested, are better than human drivers in avoiding collisions. However, in practice some systems are renown for false triggers, going off when there is no danger and for that reason some drivers have learned to switch the anti-collision systems off.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408134

Postby dealtn » April 29th, 2021, 6:06 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
dealtn wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:One should also note that a car fitted with anti-collision systems will be monitoring the car in front at around 30 frames per second if using optics, less with radar and will be able to calculate whether it is braking or accelerating even if there are no brake lights to guide the algorithm.

No human driver can have this kind of accurate knowledge and the human must instead rely on brake lights as a signal to apply his/her brakes.

According to a neighbour, who ran a scrap yard, most of the cars he took in with accident damage were either from the car having run into something or something having run into the back of the car.

Regards,


"must instead rely on brake lights?" You can also use your eyes and brain to assess the (developing) situation too, not just be triggered by a change in the brightness of a red light. In fact I would be more concerned by a driver whose behaviour was determined by fixating on a pair of lights in front.

Are you actually a driver?




The conclusion of this research is that human drivers do need brake lights and that single high centre make a big improvement.



And has anyone said here that human drivers don't need brake lights?

What you said was

odysseus2000 wrote:the human must instead rely on brake lights as a signal to apply his/her brakes



which is a completely different thing!

Do you think drivers are continually driving into pedestrians, bikes, animals, trees etc. as a result of them not having brake lights? I think you will find they don't have to rely on brake lights to avoid things.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408136

Postby odysseus2000 » April 29th, 2021, 6:11 pm

dealtn
Do you think drivers are continually driving into pedestrians, bikes, animals, trees etc. as a result of them not having brake lights? I think you will find they don't have to rely on brake lights to avoid things.


Yes, but this section of the thread was about do cars with regenerative braking put on brake lights when the car is using its regenerative brakes?

Consequently I framed my answers around this, not around braking for things that do not have brake lights.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408194

Postby dealtn » April 29th, 2021, 9:04 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
dealtn
Do you think drivers are continually driving into pedestrians, bikes, animals, trees etc. as a result of them not having brake lights? I think you will find they don't have to rely on brake lights to avoid things.


Yes, but this section of the thread was about do cars with regenerative braking put on brake lights when the car is using its regenerative brakes?

Consequently I framed my answers around this, not around braking for things that do not have brake lights.

Regards,


So your belief is that drivers are particularly capable of observing and braking to avoid collisions with animate objects that lack brake lights, but as soon as you are talking about cars, that have them, drivers are incapable of using their eyes, brains and general perception to do likewise and instead and are in a state where they "must instead rely on brake lights"?

Brake lights are useful aids to other drivers, but to consider they are things that are more than additional assistance is nonsense.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408205

Postby odysseus2000 » April 29th, 2021, 9:27 pm

dealtn
So your belief is that drivers are particularly capable of observing and braking to avoid collisions with animate objects that lack brake lights, but as soon as you are talking about cars, that have them, drivers are incapable of using their eyes, brains and general perception to do likewise and instead and are in a state where they "must instead rely on brake lights"?

Brake lights are useful aids to other drivers, but to consider they are things that are more than additional assistance is nonsense.


Cars in front are a very different hazard to most of the others a driver must avoid.

Clearly anything coming perpendicular to ones direction will trigger a response as will something moving into ones 'clear' space ahead of ones car.

A car moving in front of you is a more complicated hazard as it will be there and changing its velocity according to road conditions and what view the driver has. In many cases when a driver needs to brake he or she does not have unrestricted view ahead of the car in front. Exceptions being tall vehicles like wagons, but for most cars one usually can't see beyond the car in front. If the road is bending the car behind will not see things as quickly as the car in front. In many cases the initial change in velocity of the car in front will not be great and in most cases won't require the driver behind to react. However, the appearance of brake lights on the car in front is a universal signal to slow down, one that might not be seen by observation alone, especially in night or bad weather driving.

All the tests I saw for the single rear high mount brake light were consistent with this providing a level of alert that was far superior to any kind of observation of the road, other cars etc etc.

It may be that some drivers are so skilled that they could manage well enough if there were no brake lights and in military operations before the advent of vision enhancement, night time driving had to be done with no lights.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408275

Postby tjh290633 » April 30th, 2021, 10:01 am

dealtn wrote:"must instead rely on brake lights?" You can also use your eyes and brain to assess the (developing) situation too, not just be triggered by a change in the brightness of a red light. In fact I would be more concerned by a driver whose behaviour was determined by fixating on a pair of lights in front.

Are you actually a driver?

Anyone who has learned formation flying is quite capable of maintaining a relatively steady distance from the vehicle in front. It does require driving with due care and attention, though.

It pays to watch the vehicles in front of that vehicle, to get early warning. I don't think that automated systems can do that.

TJH

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#408317

Postby odysseus2000 » April 30th, 2021, 1:06 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
dealtn wrote:"must instead rely on brake lights?" You can also use your eyes and brain to assess the (developing) situation too, not just be triggered by a change in the brightness of a red light. In fact I would be more concerned by a driver whose behaviour was determined by fixating on a pair of lights in front.

Are you actually a driver?

Anyone who has learned formation flying is quite capable of maintaining a relatively steady distance from the vehicle in front. It does require driving with due care and attention, though.

It pays to watch the vehicles in front of that vehicle, to get early warning. I don't think that automated systems can do that.

TJH


Radar based systems can apparently look under the car directly in front to get information on the car beyond it.

Optical based systems (such as Tesla) simultaneously take in multiple images and, at least in principle, have a better view of the car ahead of the one directly in front than does a human.

According to Musk the Tesla system for highway driving is over 10x better than a human. What a human is could be debated. Someone trained in formation flying will likely be several times better than an average driver who has had no special training, but in all these things it is the aggregate statistics that matter to the actuaries: Are vision based systems better than average humans, if so what should the insurance rate be for someone in a car with such systems engaged?

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#411966

Postby funduffer » May 14th, 2021, 6:21 pm

Howard wrote:In case others are interested, I thought it might be helpful to update our experience with a BEV (a KIA Soul) as a second car.

It should be emphasised that we do not expect this car to do journeys of over 250 miles.
Howard

Hi Howard, very interesting post.

I have just ordered a Kia e-Niro that is rated at 282 miles range, and am looking forward to receiving it in July.

Your post was very informative on what I can expect from it.

I am about to have a charger installed at home, but I will be using a Zappi, which uses excess power from my solar panels, which I am currently mostly exporting to the grid (at least in summer). Sounds good, but the Zappi is expensive (~£1000).

My view of EV's is they are currently expensive, but incredibly cheap to run. Even without solar panels, if you charge overnight it can cost as low as 5p per kWh, which at 4m/kWh would only cost you £62.50 per year to do 5000 miles.

No fuel tax, no road licence fee, insurance a bit cheaper.

It won't last, but now is a good time to get an EV, I think.

FD

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#411994

Postby Howard » May 14th, 2021, 8:51 pm

funduffer wrote:
Howard wrote:In case others are interested, I thought it might be helpful to update our experience with a BEV (a KIA Soul) as a second car.

It should be emphasised that we do not expect this car to do journeys of over 250 miles.
Howard

Hi Howard, very interesting post.

I have just ordered a Kia e-Niro that is rated at 282 miles range, and am looking forward to receiving it in July.

Your post was very informative on what I can expect from it.

I am about to have a charger installed at home, but I will be using a Zappi, which uses excess power from my solar panels, which I am currently mostly exporting to the grid (at least in summer). Sounds good, but the Zappi is expensive (~£1000).

My view of EV's is they are currently expensive, but incredibly cheap to run. Even without solar panels, if you charge overnight it can cost as low as 5p per kWh, which at 4m/kWh would only cost you £62.50 per year to do 5000 miles.

No fuel tax, no road licence fee, insurance a bit cheaper.

It won't last, but now is a good time to get an EV, I think.

FD


I think you'll be very pleased with the car. It's a little bigger than the Soul EV and a more conventional shape. Because of lockdown it wasn't possible to do a test drive, but I looked inside a Kia e Niro and the interior looked high quality. As I understand it the mechanics and battery are virtually identical to the Soul.

We are still delighted with our choice. It's the first time I've experienced a KIA and the car seems really well designed with a very good infotainment system and phone App which allows control and monitoring of the charging. As a frequent user of the SatNav it's also easy for me to send a destination to the car from home ready for a journey. I believe your car will have a similar excellent head-up display. To me, the controls are all easy to use and don't distract from driving like our previous car's touchscreen.

We got an EO Mini Pro 7 kW charger, basic cost a lot less than £1k, which I believe is compatible with solar panels but, as we don't have them I can't comment on its suitability. It was recommended by Octopus. I'm intending to change to their 5p tariff but have to have a smart meter installed first.

To be frank, as a second car doing about 5k miles a year, the KIA uses so little electricity that I haven't really noticed much change in our energy usage. And charging the car at home is so easy. I'm looking forward to visiting my local Tesco filling station just to fill up my lawnmower petrol can!

As I posted earlier, the car is incredibly frugal driven in city conditions where the regenerative braking is brilliant, it wouldn't surprise me if the range was over 300 miles in this situation. The range does drop when the car is driven at 70 mph on a motorway - and it's easy to find oneself driving faster than intended because it is very quiet at speed.

My only minor quibble is that the car has lots of safety features and in default mode can make irritating beeps when, for example, one drives close to a white line. Living in the country and using narrow roads this can be annoying, especially when the car gently tweaks the steering wheel (and the beeps can imply to Mrs H that my driving is not perfect!). It took me a little while to learn how to permanently turn off some of the audible features which are unnecessary. Obviously I keep the really important warning aids enabled.

Hope you are pleased with your new car in July - looking forward to reading your review.

regards

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#414552

Postby GrahamPlatt » May 24th, 2021, 11:13 am


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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#414570

Postby odysseus2000 » May 24th, 2021, 11:57 am

GrahamPlatt wrote:https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?sh=53cade606d28

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/gmg-v ... 00479.html

So, not just advanced batteries, but also Hydrogen.


There are numerous examples of laboratory scale products that are better than lithium-ion, but all of them, as far as I can find, promise commercial production a few years into the future and that time scale keeps extending.

It may be that some of these ideas are practical and commercial, but it is also possible that they are not. Until there is some serious money going into them they are pointless distractions: Pot boilers for various journalists and researchers.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#414597

Postby BobbyD » May 24th, 2021, 12:52 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:The whole industry could develop into a massive VHS v BetaMax story all over again. When better technology cannot overturn critical mass of another technology. There's plenty of examples of this happening. MS Windows OS versus all the others, for example.


Given the scale of electrification planned over the next decade there is absolutely no shortage of demand for batteries, and no benefit to universality as in some consumer facing products. The requirements for a battery destined for aviation, high performance cars, value cars and home or centralised static storage are quite different, and variety across supply would actually be an advantage.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#414603

Postby odysseus2000 » May 24th, 2021, 1:08 pm

BobbyD wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:The whole industry could develop into a massive VHS v BetaMax story all over again. When better technology cannot overturn critical mass of another technology. There's plenty of examples of this happening. MS Windows OS versus all the others, for example.


Given the scale of electrification planned over the next decade there is absolutely no shortage of demand for batteries, and no benefit to universality as in some consumer facing products. The requirements for a battery destined for aviation, high performance cars, value cars and home or centralised static storage are quite different, and variety across supply would actually be an advantage.


Maybe, but if these new and alternative technologies can not get funding and reach scale they will suffer a similar fate to BetaMax where the inferior VHS dominated the market.

One of the front runners in alternative technology is Quantum Scape, but in the recent interview with Sandy Munro it was clear that although QS have promising lab scale technology they are still doing basic research into how to make the solid state battery at scale and are still over 2 years off where they expect volume production. Meanwhile the lithium 4680 cells are moving closer to practical production at an affordable price, very like the VHS v Betamax saga.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#414616

Postby GrahamPlatt » May 24th, 2021, 1:44 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:One of the front runners in alternative technology is Quantum Scape, but in the recent interview with Sandy Munro it was clear that although QS have promising lab scale technology they are still doing basic research into how to make the solid state battery at scale and are still over 2 years off where they expect volume production. Meanwhile the lithium 4680 cells are moving closer to practical production at an affordable price, very like the VHS v Betamax saga.


I watched that video. Much impressed by the CEO. I did not get the impression they were constrained by scaling up; I understood they were about to build a JV factory with VW, and will be (not may be) mass producing in two years.

GMG may eventually have the better technology, and meanwhile they are producing graphene (which I suppose they're selling raw) and hydrogen.
Last edited by GrahamPlatt on May 24th, 2021, 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#414619

Postby BobbyD » May 24th, 2021, 1:46 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
Maybe, but if these new and alternative technologies can not get funding and reach scale they will suffer a similar fate to BetaMax where the inferior VHS dominated the market.

One of the front runners in alternative technology is Quantum Scape, but in the recent interview with Sandy Munro it was clear that although QS have promising lab scale technology they are still doing basic research into how to make the solid state battery at scale and are still over 2 years off where they expect volume production. Meanwhile the lithium 4680 cells are moving closer to practical production at an affordable price, very like the VHS v Betamax saga.

Regards,


Funding really isn't going to be a problem for QS who have $1.5 billion available and VW as their major shareholder.

VHS vs Betamax is a terrible analogy, there is no consumer facing complication, no necessity for media production to make the battery viable, most people will never actually be aware of the chemistry powering their car, and again different manufacturers producing everything from a home battery, a £5k Chinese NEV, a European hatchback, an American pick up, a $2 million super car, a $200 million passenger jet, or static storage for the world's biggest wind farm can make their own decisions about properties, costs and compromises.

Everything Tesla make is moving closer to production, it just never actually seems to get there. Currentlly overdue: 4680, Model X refurb, Model S refurb, Model S Plaid, Semi, CT, Roadster, German factory.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#414622

Postby BobbyD » May 24th, 2021, 1:56 pm

GrahamPlatt wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:One of the front runners in alternative technology is Quantum Scape, but in the recent interview with Sandy Munro it was clear that although QS have promising lab scale technology they are still doing basic research into how to make the solid state battery at scale and are still over 2 years off where they expect volume production. Meanwhile the lithium 4680 cells are moving closer to practical production at an affordable price, very like the VHS v Betamax saga.


I watched that video. Much impressed by the CEO. I did not get the impression they were constrained by scaling up; I understood they were about to build a JV factory with VW, and will be (not may be) mass producing in two years.

GMG may have eventually have the better technology, and meanwhile they are producing graphene (which I suppose they're selling raw) and hydrogen.


VW and QS have just signed an agreement to settle on a location for the JV's pilot line by the end of the year. Currently 'considering' Salzgitter where VW's battery lab and pilot line is, and where what was their JV with Northvolt, until they bought out NV's stake in March, is being built.

https://ir.quantumscape.com/news/news-d ... fault.aspx


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