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Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

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odysseus2000
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260366

Postby odysseus2000 » October 26th, 2019, 8:33 pm

Excellent & super useful commentary.

As far as my experience & studies go, electrical efficiency is always better than mechanical, but we have had over a century of mechanical dominance via internal combustion over electrical via poor batteries. So I am always intersted in any methods of storage which I believe, like Tesla, could grow faster than electric traction.

Unless something new emerges the case for grid style battery storage in the uk to soak up wind energy looks over whelming to me. Sooner or later maybe one of the brain dead politicians might wake up & realise that uk wind resources are a boon that make the North Sea oil bonanza look lame.

It would be nice for my equity if Tesla can get this idea into a politicians head, but trying is likely purgatory.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260387

Postby johnhemming » October 27th, 2019, 4:00 am

There have been discussions as to what extent an installed base of battery powered electric vehicles can be used for maintaining power levels at times when they are attached to the grid. The difficulty, of course, is that they will generally be not attached to the grid at times when power demand during the day goes up.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260391

Postby odysseus2000 » October 27th, 2019, 7:45 am

johnhemming wrote:There have been discussions as to what extent an installed base of battery powered electric vehicles can be used for maintaining power levels at times when they are attached to the grid. The difficulty, of course, is that they will generally be not attached to the grid at times when power demand during the day goes up.


Yes, but they will often be available to store when there is weak demand, such as overnight, creating a market for what currently can not be sold. Additionally if the current car ownership model continues where most cars are mostly idle, they can become a power reserve. However, the current model where most households have at least 1 car may not hold going forwards. People, especially in large conurbations like London, may opt to rent & in such a scenario, cars would be more used than idle.

As things now stand I can see no practical alternative to large amounts of grid battery grid storage which makes imho Tesla who are the big guys & growing in battery tech an attractive investment. Some new storage technology may emerge, but currently I do not see anything that is competitive to existing lithium ion battery & as of now the potential to improve this process by taking out some of the wet chemistry of production & by using super capacitors as fast store, then slow discharge to batteries looks like it may become practical. If so the cost of production should decline & the efficiency of store during high production should improve. All of this is a potential huge boon for the UK.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260396

Postby TUK020 » October 27th, 2019, 8:29 am

johnhemming wrote:There have been discussions as to what extent an installed base of battery powered electric vehicles can be used for maintaining power levels at times when they are attached to the grid. The difficulty, of course, is that they will generally be not attached to the grid at times when power demand during the day goes up.

This is storage at the fringe of the network - the LV distribution part. Again this brings the issue back to investment/capacity in the distribution network, rather than the central generation and transmission.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260397

Postby dspp » October 27th, 2019, 8:36 am

TUK020 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:There have been discussions as to what extent an installed base of battery powered electric vehicles can be used for maintaining power levels at times when they are attached to the grid. The difficulty, of course, is that they will generally be not attached to the grid at times when power demand during the day goes up.

This is storage at the fringe of the network - the LV distribution part. Again this brings the issue back to investment/capacity in the distribution network, rather than the central generation and transmission.


TUK,

My view is that from an economic optimisation perspective one would ordinarily place the storage high up in the energy architecture, at the HV nodes. So the UK would typically end up with about a hundred storage locations each of which can be deployed easily into the c. 400kV transmission system (or 800 - 1000 - 1200 kV in the larger grids I more normally have dealings with). Placing at mid-level, in the MV system under DNO control (say a thousand sites connected to the 11kV network) would mean a need to over-invest. Placing even lower down at domestic level would imply millions of sites connected at 220/440V controlled by individual owners.

As to whether each site is a battery farm, or pumped storage, or an air liquide plant, or whatever other technology I am indifferent. I think that battery sheds (very very big ones*) will be the most competitive outcome but we will see.

* Later I will try to dig out the sums I did once on the typical size etc, now is time to go sailing.

regards, dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260400

Postby johnhemming » October 27th, 2019, 8:39 am

I have never really studied how the distribution network works. I have practical experience from working with my father who was an electrical contractor and a degree in Physics, although I specialised in Atomic, Nuclear and Theoretical physics although i do remember a bit about Maxwells equations.

One presumes, however, that in the domestic distrubution network there is a possibility of distributing some locally produced power (either from PV or batteries) even if it does not pop back into the grid.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260401

Postby TUK020 » October 27th, 2019, 8:45 am

dspp wrote:
TUK020 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:There have been discussions as to what extent an installed base of battery powered electric vehicles can be used for maintaining power levels at times when they are attached to the grid. The difficulty, of course, is that they will generally be not attached to the grid at times when power demand during the day goes up.

This is storage at the fringe of the network - the LV distribution part. Again this brings the issue back to investment/capacity in the distribution network, rather than the central generation and transmission.


TUK,

My view is that from an economic optimisation perspective one would ordinarily place the storage high up in the energy architecture, at the HV nodes. So the UK would typically end up with about a hundred storage locations each of which can be deployed easily into the c. 400kV transmission system (or 800 - 1000 - 1200 kV in the larger grids I more normally have dealings with). Placing at mid-level, in the MV system under DNO control (say a thousand sites connected to the 11kV network) would mean a need to over-invest. Placing even lower down at domestic level would imply millions of sites connected at 220/440V controlled by individual owners.

As to whether each site is a battery farm, or pumped storage, or an air liquide plant, or whatever other technology I am indifferent. I think that battery sheds (very very big ones*) will be the most competitive outcome but we will see.

* Later I will try to dig out the sums I did once on the typical size etc, now is time to go sailing.

regards, dspp


I agree with you. The point I was trying to make is that EV battery storage as a means of smoothing out demand at the edge of the network assumes capability and capacity in the distribution network that to a large extent is not there. The capex involved in digging up the roads to reinforce the last 100m of the distribution network will slow the adoption of EVs.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260413

Postby odysseus2000 » October 27th, 2019, 10:58 am

TUK020
I agree with you. The point I was trying to make is that EV battery storage as a means of smoothing out demand at the edge of the network assumes capability and capacity in the distribution network that to a large extent is not there. The capex involved in digging up the roads to reinforce the last 100m of the distribution network will slow the adoption of E


This is regularly cited but I am not sure it is anything like the huge hurdle folk make out.

We now have moles & other ways to put in cables including already existing conduits in some places, that are less destructive than digging up all the roads & less expensive.

If the politicians want BEV then they will have to find the money.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260419

Postby PeterGray » October 27th, 2019, 11:36 am

What are the rough energy costs of maintaining liquified gas in a cryo system? That seems a fairly key issue. If they are low then storing liquified gas when there is excess generation from wind or solar or whatever irregular renewable source you pick, and using it some time, perhaps days, later when demand is high and generation low, seems a viable option, and it doesn't really matter if the efficiency is 58% or less, provided capex is sensible compared to alternatives.

Presumably, given good insulation they should be low?

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260456

Postby dspp » October 27th, 2019, 3:09 pm

johnhemming wrote:I have never really studied how the distribution network works. I have practical experience from working with my father who was an electrical contractor and a degree in Physics, although I specialised in Atomic, Nuclear and Theoretical physics although i do remember a bit about Maxwells equations.

One presumes, however, that in the domestic distrubution network there is a possibility of distributing some locally produced power (either from PV or batteries) even if it does not pop back into the grid.


John,
What you are describing are termed "private wire networks". There are some moves afoot to create dematerialised 'virtual' private wore networks but they suffer from the necessity to have real - as opposed to virtual - copper wires. But that is really another topic entirely, albeit one with some interesting investment and business model opportunities that in essence rely on gaming (or - via politics - creating opportunities to game) the regulatory system.
regards,
dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#260796

Postby dspp » October 29th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Two articles courtesy John Kemp Reuters

VW ramps up China electric car factories, taking aim at Tesla
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volk ... SKBN1X71RV

LME WEEK-Stung by sliding prices, lithium industry pares back expansions
https://uk.reuters.com/article/metals-l ... KL2N26N1TI

regards, dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#269259

Postby TUK020 » December 5th, 2019, 11:16 am

Economist article on grid scale storage.

Behind paywall, I'm afraid
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/ ... ergy-plans

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#270154

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » December 9th, 2019, 5:53 pm

TUK the link you posted in your OP didn't work for me.

I believe this is the same doc with an up-to-date link:

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... report.pdf

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#275142

Postby TUK020 » January 4th, 2020, 1:51 pm

FT article today:
Motorway Services fear grid not ready for electric cars

https://www.ft.com/content/594345dc-20d ... 4213ee7b2b
behind paywall

Capex for local network reinforcement will be an issue that needs to be dealt with if this factor is not to limit the uptake of EVs

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#275189

Postby dspp » January 4th, 2020, 6:39 pm

TUK020 wrote:FT article today:
Motorway Services fear grid not ready for electric cars

https://www.ft.com/content/594345dc-20d ... 4213ee7b2b
behind paywall

Capex for local network reinforcement will be an issue that needs to be dealt with if this factor is not to limit the uptake of EVs


Tuk,
I've not read the article ($$$) but it is indeed an issue. You basically need dedicated large capacity HV feeds to the main motorway stations. It will happen. Fortunately I make money from HV feeds so I'm happy.
regards,
dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#275206

Postby BobbyD » January 4th, 2020, 7:52 pm

dspp wrote:
TUK020 wrote:FT article today:
Motorway Services fear grid not ready for electric cars

https://www.ft.com/content/594345dc-20d ... 4213ee7b2b
behind paywall

Capex for local network reinforcement will be an issue that needs to be dealt with if this factor is not to limit the uptake of EVs


Tuk,
I've not read the article ($$$) but it is indeed an issue. You basically need dedicated large capacity HV feeds to the main motorway stations. It will happen. Fortunately I make money from HV feeds so I'm happy.
regards,
dspp


https://www.google.co.uk/search?client= ... 8&oe=UTF-8

You might need to clear cookies.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#275805

Postby dspp » January 7th, 2020, 5:10 pm


Howard
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#275879

Postby Howard » January 8th, 2020, 12:14 am

Fire reported at Stavanger Airport car park

https://www.ctif.org/index.php/news/hug ... an-airport

"The cause of the fire is unclear,however the cause if the fire is under heavy investigation.

"Initially we received information that the fire started in an electric vehicle, but we have not confirmed this yet", Victor Fenne-Jensen said to VG."

"An extensive fire has been raging in a parking garage at Stavanger Airport in Norway. All air traffic was stopped and nearby hotels have been evacuated. Part of the five-story parking garage has already collapsed and destroyed about 300 cars, reports NRK."

"Prime Minister Erna Solberg was among those stranded by the airport closure, which wasn’t expected to reopen until Wednesday morning at the earliest."

“As of now we’ve had a partial construction collapse,” Heggen told Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) shortly after 6pm. By 7pm, the situation inside the garage was so dangerous that no firefighters were allowed inside. Heggen’s crews lacked control over the blaze, which involved “open flames and lots of smoke,” and could only fight it with hoses from outside the structure.

As the fire spread in the garage, explosions could be heard as parked cars’ fuel tanks blew up from the heat. Heggen confirmed Tuesday evening that more than 300 cars were already destroyed.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2020/01/07 ... s-airport/

regards

Howard

Also posted on Musk endeavours

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#282242

Postby Howard » February 4th, 2020, 4:33 pm

No more new ICE cars after 2035. Probable UK government policy.

One person who predicted this policy was Jeremy Clarkson (over 10 years ago). We aren't all fans of Jeremy, but his journalism is pretty good sometimes.

If you are busy, start the video around one minute in and you just need to watch for a couple of minutes. If you are a fan of nice cars you can watch it all but you might need a handkerchief (preferably oil-stained ;) ).

regards

Howard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgZlpRdQlRI

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#282332

Postby odysseus2000 » February 5th, 2020, 4:33 am

Howard wrote:No more new ICE cars after 2035. Probable UK government policy.

One person who predicted this policy was Jeremy Clarkson (over 10 years ago). We aren't all fans of Jeremy, but his journalism is pretty good sometimes.

If you are busy, start the video around one minute in and you just need to watch for a couple of minutes. If you are a fan of nice cars you can watch it all but you might need a handkerchief (preferably oil-stained ;) ).

regards

Howard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgZlpRdQlRI


So we had nostalgia for horses, nostalgia for traction engines, nostalgia for steam railway engines, nostalgia for the Veyron and other massively expensive cars that very few folk can afford. Fascinating how change brings out these emotions of loss and yet if the old stuff was better than the new no one would adopt the new.

Regards,


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