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Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

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BobbyD
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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383694

Postby BobbyD » February 4th, 2021, 4:49 pm

tjh290633 wrote:Presumably they will run on steel roads, like dodgem cars, or else they will need twin trolley booms, as opposed to pantographs, which cannot deal with two wires at once, unless the vehicle is on tracks.

TJH


The electrified road seemed like a cleaner idea than the pantograph, and available for all to use once you've dug up the road and installed it, but given a decent battery supply and absent a reverse pony express driver relay Scania's other solution seems like less faff, and less subject to disruption in use.

Scania plans to introduce long-distance electric trucks that will be able to carry a total weight of 40 tonnes for 4.5 hours, and fast charge during the drivers’ compulsory 45-minute rest.


- https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/ne ... icles.html

That is build a truck which can haul the heaviest load allowed in the EU, for the longest period a driver is allowed to drive continuously in the EU, and then fully recharge during his EU legally mandated break...

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383709

Postby odysseus2000 » February 4th, 2021, 6:05 pm

NeilW wrote:
Mike88 wrote:How are the government proposing to replace the lost revenue from the sale of petrol and diesel?


There is no lost revenue. That belief is a myth. The point of fuel duty (or pretty much any duty) is for it never to be paid - because the behaviour has stopped. That's how 'sin taxes' work.

What isn't spent on fuel is spent on something else (because it is Sterling and they don't use that anywhere else), and that transaction will be taxed. What is left is earned as income which will be spent elsewhere again, and that transaction is taxed, and so on around the spending loop. As with any other 'tax cut' you just get an increased number of overall transactions.

In aggregate the only leakages from the spending flow that can occur in a floating rate currency like Sterling are taxation and savings. And both of those end up in accounts at the Bank of England, which is owned by HM Treasury.

NeilW


If you have a tax on something that everyone uses which is currently the case for diesel & petrol (even non car owners need things brought or need to get places) then the exchequer makes out like bandits.

However, I do no lose sleep over the exchequer starving when petrol and diesel are phased out, as they are super skilled in the art of raising taxes as needed.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383715

Postby Mike88 » February 4th, 2021, 6:45 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
NeilW wrote:
Mike88 wrote:How are the government proposing to replace the lost revenue from the sale of petrol and diesel?


There is no lost revenue. That belief is a myth. The point of fuel duty (or pretty much any duty) is for it never to be paid - because the behaviour has stopped. That's how 'sin taxes' work.

What isn't spent on fuel is spent on something else (because it is Sterling and they don't use that anywhere else), and that transaction will be taxed. What is left is earned as income which will be spent elsewhere again, and that transaction is taxed, and so on around the spending loop. As with any other 'tax cut' you just get an increased number of overall transactions.

In aggregate the only leakages from the spending flow that can occur in a floating rate currency like Sterling are taxation and savings. And both of those end up in accounts at the Bank of England, which is owned by HM Treasury.

NeilW


If you have a tax on something that everyone uses which is currently the case for diesel & petrol (even non car owners need things brought or need to get places) then the exchequer makes out like bandits.

However, I do no lose sleep over the exchequer starving when petrol and diesel are phased out, as they are super skilled in the art of raising taxes as needed.


Regards,



That's true but Fuel duty accounts for £28bn a year. That's a lot of alternative tax to be found.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383717

Postby odysseus2000 » February 4th, 2021, 7:05 pm

Mikk88 That's true but Fuel duty accounts for £28bn a year. That's a lot of alternative tax to be found.


Yes it is, but the costs of pollution both on individuals and in terms of the biosphere are not trivially small either.

It looks to me that the politicians will use a series of tightening carbon taxes to increase the uptake of battery vehicles and at the same time will slowly begin to hike other taxes to fill the holes created by declining fuel duty.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383767

Postby dspp » February 4th, 2021, 10:26 pm

Moderator Message:
WARNING : arguments regarding the theology of money must be taken to other threads. I am about to delete two such posts. This thread is about ICE > EV matters. thank you, dspp

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383777

Postby JohnB » February 4th, 2021, 11:41 pm

Road pricing is the obvious new taxation method. It addresses congestion, and the motorist who accepts it costs a certain amount to run a car each year won't squeal about its introduction. Its just a question whether it can be done without a full surveillance society, or councils gaming the system with tolls on particular stretches of road.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383822

Postby odysseus2000 » February 5th, 2021, 10:36 am

JohnB wrote:Road pricing is the obvious new taxation method. It addresses congestion, and the motorist who accepts it costs a certain amount to run a car each year won't squeal about its introduction. Its just a question whether it can be done without a full surveillance society, or councils gaming the system with tolls on particular stretches of road.


We already have road tax, collected from all car owners and graduated depending upon the amount of co2.

If Robo taxis happen would this be a tax on every journey? In which case it would conceivably be collected without knowing who made the journey, just part of the taxi fee. If the taxi firms were required to report who, when and where there would be a mass of data to store and search through if needed for say a criminal case. Clearly this is possible, but civil rights folk would probably kick off.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383848

Postby JohnB » February 5th, 2021, 1:01 pm

Since 2017 road tax is only emissions based for the first year, its a flat rate thereafter for all IC cars, a baffling retrograde step to me.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383867

Postby odysseus2000 » February 5th, 2021, 2:52 pm

JohnB wrote:Since 2017 road tax is only emissions based for the first year, its a flat rate thereafter for all IC cars, a baffling retrograde step to me.


This applies, as I understand it, to cars first registered after 2017:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indo ... ce=twitter

For cars registered between 2001 and 2017, the rate is emission dependent:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tab ... march-2001

I presume the rational is to give anyone with a car registered before March 2017, to exchange it for a newer model.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383869

Postby dealtn » February 5th, 2021, 3:32 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
JohnB wrote:Since 2017 road tax is only emissions based for the first year, its a flat rate thereafter for all IC cars, a baffling retrograde step to me.


This applies, as I understand it, to cars first registered after 2017:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indo ... ce=twitter

For cars registered between 2001 and 2017, the rate is emission dependent:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tab ... march-2001

I presume the rational is to give anyone with a car registered before March 2017, to exchange it for a newer model.

Regards,


Not always the most environmental of options though in my opinion. Repair, reuse, recycle is a 3 pronged approach. Replace, the 4th "R", will often mean depleting the planet's resources faster, and consuming more energy through replacement manufacturing, than is "saved" by factors such as emission reduction etc.

It seems an odd incentive to me.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383897

Postby Midsmartin » February 5th, 2021, 4:53 pm

My personal view is that fuel duty should be replaced by a whole ready of green taxes. A carbon tax to get rid of that coal use, and then other oil/gas use, cement and so on.

Cars are getting bigger and heavier. Tax big cars. Tax mileage maybe.

I think we will eventually need an electricity duty, with a household allowance for basics. Energy of any sort should be expensive and valued to stop profligate use.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383907

Postby JohnB » February 5th, 2021, 5:07 pm

The tax change actively penalises new cars as a small car from 2016 might pay £20, same model now £150

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383921

Postby BobbyD » February 5th, 2021, 5:33 pm

dealtn wrote:Not always the most environmental of options though in my opinion. Repair, reuse, recycle is a 3 pronged approach. Replace, the 4th "R", will often mean depleting the planet's resources faster, and consuming more energy through replacement manufacturing, than is "saved" by factors such as emission reduction etc.


If only somebody was producing BEV's which were lifetime CO2 neutral if run on renewable electricity so you could remove the on the road emission of a petrol burner without creating more emissions in the supply chain and manufacturing process of its replacement! Something like VW's ID.3/ID.4 for instance, or Skoda's rather spiffy Enyaq.

Midsmartin wrote:My personal view is that fuel duty should be replaced by a whole ready of green taxes. A carbon tax to get rid of that coal use, and then other oil/gas use, cement and so on.

Cars are getting bigger and heavier. Tax big cars. Tax mileage maybe.

I think we will eventually need an electricity duty, with a household allowance for basics. Energy of any sort should be expensive and valued to stop profligate use.


Cars with lower on road emissions are already promoted by regulations, why not do the same with emissions from the supply chain and manufacturing process? Have a CO2 levy on the purchase price. Make road tax dependent on the CO2 footprint of a car as it rolls off the forecourt. Tax what you actually want to eliminate, rather than a mediocre simulacrum which is bound to fall foul of the law of unintended consequence.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383932

Postby odysseus2000 » February 5th, 2021, 6:00 pm

dealtn
Not always the most environmental of options though in my opinion. Repair, reuse, recycle is a 3 pronged approach. Replace, the 4th "R", will often mean depleting the planet's resources faster, and consuming more energy through replacement manufacturing, than is "saved" by factors such as emission reduction etc.

It seems an odd incentive to me.


The problem with repair is what it costs to the end user. Generally a manufacturer will not want to re-work anything and will instead want to put in entirely new parts. This is e.g. what Apple usually do, whereas independent repair shops will trouble shoot at the board level and are often able to do a repair for much less. Often a dealer garage will quote so much for a repair that the customer won't pay arguing that they can lease a new car for a similar figure.

The Euro-6 emission standards came in in Sept of 2015, so by incentivising cars that are Euro-6 compliant one gets cleaner air on average than if one reuses/repairs a lot of earlier pre-Euro-6 cars on average. This is always a complex subject as the AdBlue technology which removed oxides of nitrogen predates Euro-6 and by targeting all earlier cars one runs the risk of taking out some pre-Euro-6 cars that are very clean.

All of this is very complicated whereas dvla aims for simple rules and so one gets the sort of arrangements we have and is why imho a BEV is a far more sensible choice for most, save for those who drive very long distances.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#383938

Postby PeterGray » February 5th, 2021, 6:18 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
I presume the rational is to give anyone with a car registered before March 2017, to exchange it for a newer model.

Regards,


For someone like me with a 2010 diesel Golf, paying £20 pa it's not a big incentive! Going well and likely to be kept till I'm a lot happier about EV practicalities and charging.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384100

Postby Howard » February 6th, 2021, 11:13 am

I'm considering changing to a BEV as our lease on a Golf is ending soon. We'll probably choose a Kia and the lease cost will be similar.

Now I have to prepare for this it has struck me how expensive it may be to install a charger. I want it in my detached garage less than two metres from the house and this means running a thick armoured cable from the house to provide a 32 amp supply.

I'm happy to dig a trench as the cable has to be buried. My friendly local electrician has given me a quote to connect my power supply to a wall box in the ideal place in the garage. This is over £600. Then I need to get a suitable charger connected. Looks like another £400 to £500 for this net of OLEV grant. I've talked to a neighbour who has just had a similar installation (he dug the trench) and it cost over a thousand.

Looking at Electric Car owners discussion boards it's relatively easy to get a charger installed next to the power supply but as soon as detached garages are involved the costs mount.

I'm not complaining. And I'll probably find a less costly installation, but it's not going to be much under £1,000 before I can plug the car in. That's a lot of petrol!

Octopus energy look like a good choice of energy supplier and they have a charger installation service, however their gas and electricity costs are going to be around 25% more than my current People's Energy deal. In the long run their Go tariff may be cheaper if I set the car to charge only between 12.30 am and 4.00 am. This will mean having to have a dreaded smart meter fitted - what can go wrong :? .

As a non electrician I have a feeling that the chargers being offered are over complicated as I believe charging times etc can all be set by the car's software.

I've written this post to highlight some of the issues about transition to an electric car - hope the comments are helpful.

Any suggestions for the ideal charger installation would be appreciated. :)

regards

Howard

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384238

Postby BobbyD » February 6th, 2021, 5:03 pm

Howard wrote:Any suggestions for the ideal charger installation would be appreciated. :)


Have you looked in to how much charging the car is expected to need given expected use? A three pin plug may be sufficient for your needs, especially in a multi-car household.

Howard wrote:As a non electrician I have a feeling that the chargers being offered are over complicated as I believe charging times etc can all be set by the car's software.


I'd expect most fully featured chargers are bought because they give the customer a sense of being future proofed. Doesn't matter what the next car is, charger retains the features. There are quite a range of chargers available. To take the ID.charger range (not available in the UK until next year) as an example:

Image

- https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... arger-5615

so if you want a dumb charger then they do appear to be out there. A couple of hundred quid extra is also probably quite an easy sell to somebody in the process of spending £10,000's on a spiffy new car...

Howard wrote:Now I have to prepare for this it has struck me how expensive it may be to install a charger. I want it in my detached garage less than two metres from the house and this means running a thick armoured cable from the house to provide a 32 amp supply.

...Looking at Electric Car owners discussion boards it's relatively easy to get a charger installed next to the power supply but as soon as detached garages are involved the costs mount.

...I've written this post to highlight some of the issues about transition to an electric car - hope the comments are helpful.


In all fairness Howard this appears to be a feature of the cost of electrical work in the UK which is unlikely to be a factor for most BEV users, or for those who should they decide it is their preferred solution can't afford it, and as such whilst understandably annoying probably isn't going to have a massive impact on BEV adoption.

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384278

Postby odysseus2000 » February 6th, 2021, 7:05 pm

Howard

I'm considering changing to a BEV as our lease on a Golf is ending soon. We'll probably choose a Kia and the lease cost will be similar.

Now I have to prepare for this it has struck me how expensive it may be to install a charger. I want it in my detached garage less than two metres from the house and this means running a thick armoured cable from the house to provide a 32 amp supply.

I'm happy to dig a trench as the cable has to be buried. My friendly local electrician has given me a quote to connect my power supply to a wall box in the ideal place in the garage. This is over £600. Then I need to get a suitable charger connected. Looks like another £400 to £500 for this net of OLEV grant. I've talked to a neighbour who has just had a similar installation (he dug the trench) and it cost over a thousand.


I thought dspp had gone over this on the Musk Endeavours board. Anyhow all depends what you want.

Rough number are 4 amps at mains voltage is 1 kW.

13 amp ring main socket can give you 3.33 kW

32 amp is about 8 kW

45 amp is 11.25 kW.

If you want more than 13 amp, then 45 amp seems the best choice as the additional costs over 32 amp are small.

As far as I understand it you do not need an expensive controller as that is build into each car, unless you want to charge at specific times, or integrate solar etc.

The basic cost should be for a 45 amp socket, if you can have this put on the house wall and run a cable to the BEV that should be cheapest solution.

Regards,

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384287

Postby TUK020 » February 6th, 2021, 7:32 pm

FT article
"How the race for renewable energy is reshaping global politics"
Mentions China and CATL a lot. Doesn't mention TESLA or Panasonic

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Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours

#384408

Postby dspp » February 7th, 2021, 11:51 am

BobbyD wrote:
Howard wrote:Any suggestions for the ideal charger installation would be appreciated. :)


Have you looked in to how much charging the car is expected to need given expected use? A three pin plug may be sufficient for your needs, especially in a multi-car household.

Howard wrote:As a non electrician I have a feeling that the chargers being offered are over complicated as I believe charging times etc can all be set by the car's software......

...Looking at Electric Car owners discussion boards it's relatively easy to get a charger installed next to the power supply but as soon as detached garages are involved the costs mount.

...I've written this post to highlight some of the issues about transition to an electric car - hope the comments are helpful.


In all fairness Howard this appears to be a feature of the cost of electrical work in the UK which is unlikely to be a factor for most BEV users, or for those who should they decide it is their preferred solution can't afford it, and as such whilst understandably annoying probably isn't going to have a massive impact on BEV adoption.


Howard,

Indeed, half of these costs are due to the cost of any qualified technical tradesperson in the UK, combined with the physics/engineering cost of running a lengthy bit of high current cable*. Re the cost of the charger itself there are a number of things going on. 1) A fight between car companies and electrical companies for control, with not all car companies seeing things the same way; 2) a fight between the householder and the electricity company for control. I have previously pointed out how to do it as cheaply as reasonably possible whilst remaining code-compliant, but that means you won't get the bells & whistles of cheap tariffs. Really you have to make a choice.

regards, dspp


* It would be best if all houses/roads/etc being built today had the relevant cabling installed from birth. Unfortunately not so.


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