Government bailouts.

[redsturgeon]

Are we about to see another wave of public bailouts of private companies, are we looking at moral hazard again?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... t-bailout/

Boeing is asking for $60 billion from Joe Public in the USA while having spent $45 billion on share buybacks over the last few years to support its shares and put billions into the pockets of share holders and executives. Money that might have been better spent on R&D to build reliable and safe planes rather than taking short cuts to try to boost profits.

There are calls in some quarters to refuse government bailouts to any companies that took on debt to engage in major share buybacks. They are the instigators of their own downfall.

John

[Dod101]

It is certainly a bit rich for Boeing to be coming along cap in hand with as RS says a very big share buyback behind them and their own management negligence with the 737. But it is unthinkable for Boeing to be allowed to go to the wall by the US Government.

Dod

[redsturgeon]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/busi ... rance.html

Here is about $60 million that should be up for grabs before a penny of public money is spent!

John

[colin]

I can't see what the alternative is to widespread bailouts around the world followed by huge issuances of bonds and tax rises. Capitalism really needs to be temporarily suspended but there is no mechanism for that .

[Midsmartin]

While it's true that spending billions on buybacks was clearly a mistake(at least in retrospect), it may be fallacious thinking to use that historical fact to decide what happens in the future. If rescuing these companies is determined to be an important step for the economy, then it needs to be done regardless, if the alternative is one foot waving over the abyss. What I don't know is where that judgement lies about the importance of preserving companies that might otherwise collapse.

[SheikYaManii]

While it's true that spending billions on buybacks was clearly a mistake(at least in retrospect), it may be fallacious thinking to use that historical fact to decide what happens in the future. If rescuing these companies is determined to be an important step for the economy, then it needs to be done regardless, if the alternative is one foot waving over the abyss. What I don't know is where that judgement lies about the importance of preserving companies that might otherwise collapse.

It's also a question of our survival, all airlines face bankruptcy, we use them to import around 50% of our food.

[dspp]

While it's true that spending billions on buybacks was clearly a mistake(at least in retrospect), it may be fallacious thinking to use that historical fact to decide what happens in the future. If rescuing these companies is determined to be an important step for the economy, then it needs to be done regardless, if the alternative is one foot waving over the abyss. What I don't know is where that judgement lies about the importance of preserving companies that might otherwise collapse.

It's also a question of our survival, all airlines face bankruptcy, we use them to import around 50% of our food.

eh ? can I check which country are you in, as it is obviously not the UK ?

regards, dspp

[SheikYaManii]

While it's true that spending billions on buybacks was clearly a mistake(at least in retrospect), it may be fallacious thinking to use that historical fact to decide what happens in the future. If rescuing these companies is determined to be an important step for the economy, then it needs to be done regardless, if the alternative is one foot waving over the abyss. What I don't know is where that judgement lies about the importance of preserving companies that might otherwise collapse.

It's also a question of our survival, all airlines face bankruptcy, we use them to import around 50% of our food.

eh ? can I check which country are you in, as it is obviously not the UK ?

regards, dspp

Yes I am in the UK unfortunately.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/
regards
Dave
PS did you not see the Ed Balls BBC series What Britain buys and sells in a day? Much of our food arives in the holds of passenger planes.

[redsturgeon]

It's also a question of our survival, all airlines face bankruptcy, we use them to import around 50% of our food.

eh ? can I check which country are you in, as it is obviously not the UK ?

regards, dspp

Yes I am in the UK unfortunately.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/
regards
Dave
PS did you not see the Ed Balls BBC series What Britain buys and sells in a day? Much of our food arives in the holds of passenger planes.

I assume you are referring to this quote

The UK is not self-sufficient in food production; it imports 48% of the total food consumed and the proportion is rising.

Have you not considered sea and road transport?

John

[dspp]

It's also a question of our survival, all airlines face bankruptcy, we use them to import around 50% of our food.

eh ? can I check which country are you in, as it is obviously not the UK ?

regards, dspp

Yes I am in the UK unfortunately.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/
regards
Dave
PS did you not see the Ed Balls BBC series What Britain buys and sells in a day? Much of our food arives in the holds of passenger planes.

Surely you've heard of ships, and these days also the railway under the Channel ?

Imports via aviation probably account for about 1% of the UK food consumption, not the 48% you propose. This is 1% by food miles, you can also count by other factors (actual tonnage, value, CO2, etc).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... odanddrink

regards, dspp

ps. No, I don't have a TV, presumably he is a TV person.

[SheikYaManii]

eh ? can I check which country are you in, as it is obviously not the UK ?

regards, dspp

Yes I am in the UK unfortunately.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/
regards
Dave
PS did you not see the Ed Balls BBC series What Britain buys and sells in a day? Much of our food arives in the holds of passenger planes.

Surely you've heard of ships, and these days also the railway under the Channel ?

Imports via aviation probably account for about 1% of the UK food consumption, not the 48% you propose. This is 1% by food miles, you can also count by other factors (actual tonnage, value, CO2, etc).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... odanddrink

regards, dspp

ps. No, I don't have a TV, presumably he is a TV person.

Firstly what a shamefull and patronising reaction to my post , both dspp and redsturgeon have made it quite clear from the tone of their posts that they
are primarily motivated by seeking out opportunities to belittle others rather than making intelligent and considered responses to the posts of others.
Quite a nasty cultural trait of these boards I have noticed.
Secondly if you had watched the retired politician's illuminating programmes on a vital aspect of our economy you would have learned something of how the just in time food suply lines opperate . I strongly sugest that both of you challenge your assumptions with proper research .

[redsturgeon]

Yes I am in the UK unfortunately.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/
regards
Dave
PS did you not see the Ed Balls BBC series What Britain buys and sells in a day? Much of our food arives in the holds of passenger planes.

Surely you've heard of ships, and these days also the railway under the Channel ?

Imports via aviation probably account for about 1% of the UK food consumption, not the 48% you propose. This is 1% by food miles, you can also count by other factors (actual tonnage, value, CO2, etc).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... odanddrink

regards, dspp

ps. No, I don't have a TV, presumably he is a TV person.

Firstly what a shamefull and patronising reaction to my post , both dspp and redsturgeon have made it quite clear from the tone of their posts that they
are primarily motivated by seeking out opportunities to belittle others rather than making intelligent and considered responses to the posts of others.
Quite a nasty cultural trait of these boards I have noticed.
Secondly if you had watched the retired politician's illuminating programmes on a vital aspect of our economy you would have learned something of how the just in time food suply lines opperate . I strongly sugest that both of you challenge your assumptions with proper research .

Firstly it is important for intelligent debate that people stick to the facts. You asserted that 50% of our food in the UK is imported via aircraft. When you were challenged on this you gave a link which points out that about 50% of our food is imported. Clearly most comes by boat or through the tunnel.
Would you agree to this fact?

I have watched the programme and it is very interesting but suggesting that others need to do "proper research" is laughable given your own false assertion.

Please check your facts in future before posting and others will then not need to correct you.

John

[dspp]

Yes I am in the UK unfortunately.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/
regards
Dave
PS did you not see the Ed Balls BBC series What Britain buys and sells in a day? Much of our food arives in the holds of passenger planes.

Surely you've heard of ships, and these days also the railway under the Channel ?

Imports via aviation probably account for about 1% of the UK food consumption, not the 48% you propose. This is 1% by food miles, you can also count by other factors (actual tonnage, value, CO2, etc).

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... odanddrink

regards, dspp

ps. No, I don't have a TV, presumably he is a TV person.

Firstly what a shamefull and patronising reaction to my post , both dspp and redsturgeon have made it quite clear from the tone of their posts that they
are primarily motivated by seeking out opportunities to belittle others rather than making intelligent and considered responses to the posts of others.
Quite a nasty cultural trait of these boards I have noticed.
Secondly if you had watched the retired politician's illuminating programmes on a vital aspect of our economy you would have learned something of how the just in time food suply lines opperate . I strongly sugest that both of you challenge your assumptions with proper research .

Hardly. But I have spent enough time a) at sea and b) in other countries that I do not want to assume you are in the UK, but if you are then I do wish to correct what is a pretty obvious (to me) seablindness (if you are in the UK). I have no idea who your TV person is but obviously he filled you full of a load of nonsense about how much % food flies in by air. Or he said the correct facts and you misheard them, I don't know.

The subject of bailouts of private sector by the taxpayers is a real issue. But we are only going to be able to have a sensible conversation about it if we have credible facts on the table.

regards, dspp

[Arborbridge]

It's also a question of our survival, all airlines face bankruptcy, we use them to import around 50% of our food.

eh ? can I check which country are you in, as it is obviously not the UK ?

regards, dspp

Yes I am in the UK unfortunately.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/
regards
Dave
PS did you not see the Ed Balls BBC series What Britain buys and sells in a day? Much of our food arives in the holds of passenger planes.

Much of it??? Certainly some of it, but I remember Ed Balls marvelling over what arrives at our major ports - vast numbers of containers on one ship. Ten of thousands in one shipment. I don't believe that 50% arrives by air, unless you can substantiate that.

[JohnB]

A Google suggests that 1% of UK food is imported by air (probably by calorific value, I expect its higher by value).

https://www.thecaterer.com/news/foodser ... orted-food
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/ ... ophic.html

[dspp]

A Google suggests that 1% of UK food is imported by air (probably by calorific value, I expect its higher by value).

https://www.thecaterer.com/news/foodser ... orted-food
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/ ... ophic.html

1% by food miles. See my earlier link. dspp