Secular change in medicine?

[odysseus2000]

The approval of the Covid mRNA vaccine will allow a test in the wild of the technology.

As I understand it the mRNA technique creates a short lived cell that has the characteristics of the Covid virus.

This is then recognised by the bodies defences which produces defence agents that target this structure. Should the individual later get a Covid infection he/she will already have the bodies defences trained for the shape of the virus and will attack it.

This is a simplified form of the traditional vaccine where a "dead version" or something similar of the entire virus is injected and this causes the body to build up its defences for that particular structure so that if the real virus comes along, the individuals body is already geared up to kill it.

The main risk with the mRNA technique (as I understand it, but please correct if I am wrong) is that the structure created on the surface of cells mimics something else in the body and the body then builds defences that attack the body rather than just the cells that have this structure on their surface. This kind of a blue on blue interaction would be a disaster and would cause the mRNA vaccine to be withdrawn as I understand it.

However, if the mRNA vaccine works it opens up a whole host of other applications where it is possible to 'turn-on' the bodies defences by only supplying some small unqiue part of e.g. a cancer so that the body then recognises this as a hostile entity and creates an appropriate response that attacks the disease that is being treated. Additionally the expected short life of the mRNA active agent in the human body is another potential safeguard against long term human health troubles.

The main advantage of the mRNA approach is speed, the appropriate hostile identifier can be quickly simulated and as one is only creating a small amount of the virus one has less things to go wrong in the body making a mis-identification and attacking a friendly by mistake. Additionally if the hostile has some prominent feature that the mRNA will replicate, it makes the hostile much less able to do a small mutation to avoid the bodies defences. To avoid attack the mutation would have to remove the characteristic that has been identified and used to create the mRNA vaccine.

My question is whether the mRNA approach can deal with lots of other hostiles as I am reading and if so can it replace a lot of the existing medicines.

If this is the case are there any parma stocks that would be particularly blessed or hurt by wide spread use of mRNA techniques should the Covid mRNA vaccine work leading to many more similar drugs being approved and used?

In simpler terms can mRNA technology be seen as a revolutionary secular change in the treatment of serious illness that will lead to exponential growth in its applications or is it just being hyped beyond sense?

There is one conspiracy theory going around that parma and the UK medical establishment are so convinced of the blessing of mRNA that they have been prepared to go along with the bogus science and government spin just so that a mRNA vaccine can be approved and trialed in the wild.

Regards,

[Midsmartin]

mRNA vaccines should work in principal for presenting any protein you like to the immune system. There may be exceptions - I don't know, but I can imagine that there may be bacterial proteins which, if made in your body's cells, ended up without chemical modifications that are normally there, and thus end up as the wrong shape.

RNA can also be used in principal to turn off your body's genes, by interfering, ie by sticking to one of your mRNAs so that it can't be translated into protein any more.

Here's a short summary of this and a bit more from a year ago:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03068-4

[odysseus2000]

mRNA vaccines should work in principal for presenting any protein you like to the immune system. There may be exceptions - I don't know, but I can imagine that there may be bacterial proteins which, if made in your body's cells, ended up without chemical modifications that are normally there, and thus end up as the wrong shape.

RNA can also be used in principal to turn off your body's genes, by interfering, ie by sticking to one of your mRNAs so that it can't be translated into protein any more.

Here's a short summary of this and a bit more from a year ago:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03068-4

Thank you!

That is a super interesting article.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

One thing that I am finding incredibly confusing is how one determines what is an appropriate level of human defences to protect against exposure to Covid-19 & how one can be asymptomatic.

If someone has the disease, but has no symptoms & yet can infect others, is this because the individual is below some threshold level of infection or are some individuals naturally protected, having had a less dangerous version of a covid infection.

If one gives the mRNA vaccine to someone who has already had covid is the immune response simply going to more quickly take out the mRNA cells than in someone who has not had the virus, or will they have some over enthusiastic response to the mRNA?

The mRNA technique looks like a near miracle discovery thst can transform medicine, but there seem to be many uncertainties that make understanding the details & specific individual reaction to make proceeding with vaccinating the front line medical staff a bit like risking all the front line troops when there is an enemy coming at us,

Is there data that kiboshies my worries?

Regards,

[Midsmartin]

.If someone has the disease, but has no symptoms & yet can infect others, is this because the individual is below some threshold level of infection or are some individuals naturally protected, having had a less dangerous version of a covid infection.

Possibly nobody knows. Immune systems may react differently in different people. I think mask use hints that lower doses of virus leads to milder infection. The infection may appear to different parts of the body differently in different people. There are a thousand variables!

On the radio someone suggested that the virus in some people may remain in mucosal linings of the throat, while the vaccine immune response is more targeted at the interior of the body. I'm no immunologist!

[odysseus2000]

.If someone has the disease, but has no symptoms & yet can infect others, is this because the individual is below some threshold level of infection or are some individuals naturally protected, having had a less dangerous version of a covid infection.

Possibly nobody knows. Immune systems may react differently in different people. I think mask use hints that lower doses of virus leads to milder infection. The infection may appear to different parts of the body differently in different people. There are a thousand variables!

On the radio someone suggested that the virus in some people may remain in mucosal linings of the throat, while the vaccine immune response is more targeted at the interior of the body. I'm no immunologist!

It feels super complicated to me.

I get the impression that the medics are too focused on this new mRNA technology and are not focused enough on finding out why some people have it very badly, like the PM, whereas others have no symptoms.

There is so much confusing information too. In one of the briefings, the Chief MO was saying that teachers have in general not been much troubled by the virus, but anecdotal reports from local Schools are that they are struggling due to the number of staff off with the virus.

It will be great if this mRNA works. To have pinned so much medical and political capital on it being a near magic bullet suggests that the medics are very confident and it will certainly be something to applaud if it does work as they hope.

Should the vaccinations go well it would suggest that mRNA is a potential game changer in the treatment of human illness, as were antibiotics and that would open up some potentially lucrative investment options.

Regards,

[Midsmartin]

Biology is complicated! The immune system extremely so.

There is lots of work on why severity differs I think, but it hasn't been on the TV news as much as the vaccine. Vaccines hit the headlines. Complex science very rarely does because it's complicated, and impossible for a journalist with an arts degree to describe accurately in 20 seconds.

Here is just one example of a genetic risk of severe covid
"The major genetic risk factor for severe COVID-19 is inherited from Neanderthals":

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2818-3

The actual genetic link points to six candidate genes of which a couple have obvious roles in immune responses. It gets technical:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2025501


Here is another, that takes about severe covid where 10%of hospitalised people have antibodies to their own interferons, so they have some sort of immune system malfunction.
https://bgr.com/2020/11/15/coronavirus- ... ies-study/

Oh and blood groups. Group A gets covid worst, and O most mildly.

I don't think there is any doubt that the vaccine will work. The trial results were overwhelming. In addition results from several vaccines targeting the same spike protein are all good. We don't know how long it will last though do we. I think the strong reaction makes people optimistic on that.

[odysseus2000]

Biology is complicated! The immune system extremely so.

There is lots of work on why severity differs I think, but it hasn't been on the TV news as much as the vaccine. Vaccines hit the headlines. Complex science very rarely does because it's complicated, and impossible for a journalist with an arts degree to describe accurately in 20 seconds.

Here is just one example of a genetic risk of severe covid
"The major genetic risk factor for severe COVID-19 is inherited from Neanderthals":

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2818-3

The actual genetic link points to six candidate genes of which a couple have obvious roles in immune responses. It gets technical:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2025501


Here is another, that takes about severe covid where 10%of hospitalised people have antibodies to their own interferons, so they have some sort of immune system malfunction.
https://bgr.com/2020/11/15/coronavirus- ... ies-study/

Oh and blood groups. Group A gets covid worst, and O most mildly.

I don't think there is any doubt that the vaccine will work. The trial results were overwhelming. In addition results from several vaccines targeting the same spike protein are all good. We don't know how long it will last though do we. I think the strong reaction makes people optimistic on that.

Thank you!

This is the best, most useful and most interesting information I have read about Covid.

Super fascinating how Neanderthal genes are a severe risk factor and the ability to turn off interferon production so that a great army of hostiles can be made without defences being triggered is a remarkable stealth capability, a Trojan horse of the viral world. Then the blood group sensitivity adds a further mystery.

It has often been argued that medicine should be targeted at individuals, not as a one technology for all, and this research amplifies that point enormously.

It will be so fantastic if this vaccine works and then along with rapid testing we as a species have a way forward. I am seeing statements like: "Mandatory rapid COVID-19 antigen testing onsite prior to entry" being added to various US social events adding another layer of defence.

I am greatly encouraged and feel far more positive about the new vaccine that ever before.

it is of course human life that matters and from other side reading it appears that the mRNA offers a potential paradigm shift in medical weaponry to treat serious human illness with far lower risk. From an investment perspective the mRNA approach is something to watch for the investment potential of new medications to treat serious illness.

Regards,

[UncleEbenezer]

One thing that I am finding incredibly confusing is how one determines what is an appropriate level of human defences to protect against exposure to Covid-19 & how one can be asymptomatic.

If someone has the disease, but has no symptoms & yet can infect others, is this because the individual is below some threshold level of infection or are some individuals naturally protected, having had a less dangerous version of a covid infection.

That's not known: treating "asymptomatic infection" as a big risk has been done on a precautionary basis. Same (kind of) principle as treating outdoors as an equal risk in the early days. Intuitively it should be a much lower risk than if you're coughing and spluttering your germs. Typhoid Mary was a caterer actually handling food when she transmitted asymptomatically!

If one gives the mRNA vaccine to someone who has already had covid is the immune response simply going to more quickly take out the mRNA cells than in someone who has not had the virus, or will they have some over enthusiastic response to the mRNA?

That's the kind of question I daresay is being researched even as we speculate! Similar questions apply to other vaccines, and I have a faint childhood recollection of a TB(?) screening/vaccination process whereby we were first tested, then vaccinated only if we didn't already have reactors.

The mRNA technique looks like a near miracle discovery thst can transform medicine, but there seem to be many uncertainties that make understanding the details & specific individual reaction to make proceeding with vaccinating the front line medical staff a bit like risking all the front line troops when there is an enemy coming at us,

Is there data that kiboshies my worries?

Regards,

There are many miracles in medicine. A few really are (cowpox or penicillin), most aren't. Just a few years ago, sequencing the genome was going to be the miracle cure for everything, then it turned out to be just another incremental advance that may or may not become the basis for something more exciting.

[ursaminortaur]

One thing that I am finding incredibly confusing is how one determines what is an appropriate level of human defences to protect against exposure to Covid-19 & how one can be asymptomatic.

If someone has the disease, but has no symptoms & yet can infect others, is this because the individual is below some threshold level of infection or are some individuals naturally protected, having had a less dangerous version of a covid infection.

That's not known: treating "asymptomatic infection" as a big risk has been done on a precautionary basis. Same (kind of) principle as treating outdoors as an equal risk in the early days. Intuitively it should be a much lower risk than if you're coughing and spluttering your germs. Typhoid Mary was a caterer actually handling food when she transmitted asymptomatically!

If one gives the mRNA vaccine to someone who has already had covid is the immune response simply going to more quickly take out the mRNA cells than in someone who has not had the virus, or will they have some over enthusiastic response to the mRNA?

That's the kind of question I daresay is being researched even as we speculate! Similar questions apply to other vaccines, and I have a faint childhood recollection of a TB(?) screening/vaccination process whereby we were first tested, then vaccinated only if we didn't already have reactors.

The mRNA vaccine works by making some of your cells produce one of the spike proteins on the Covid-19 virus which provokes an immune response producing anti-bodies which will be ready to attack the spike on the Covid-19 virus if you are subsequently infected.
There are many such proteins in the spike so even if you have already had Covid the anti-bodies that you have built-up from that encounter may well be targetting something different. Even if they were targetting the same protein then they should just see the cells displaying the spike protein and attack and kill the cell as if it were a covid infection - the number of such cells will be relatively small since the mRNA does not replicate and hence the response should be fairly low key.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

COVID-19 mRNA vaccines give instructions for our cells to make a harmless piece of what is called the “spike protein.” The spike protein is found on the surface of the virus that causes COVID-19.

COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are given in the upper arm muscle. Once the instructions (mRNA) are inside the immune cells, the cells use them to make the protein piece. After the protein piece is made, the cell breaks down the instructions and gets rid of them.

Next, the cell displays the protein piece on its surface. Our immune systems recognize that the protein doesn’t belong there and begin building an immune response and making antibodies, like what happens in natural infection against COVID-19.
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They do not affect or interact with our DNA in any way.

mRNA never enters the nucleus of the cell, which is where our DNA (genetic material) is kept.
The cell breaks down and gets rid of the mRNA soon after it is finished using the instructions.





The BCG TB vaccine is very different as it contains a weakened live TB virus and hence will replicate within the body.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/bcg-tb-vaccine-questions-answers/

The BCG vaccine contains a weakened strain of TB bacteria, which builds up immunity and encourages the body to fight TB if infected with it, without causing the disease itself.