Driverless Vehicles

[BobbyD]

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active. The automaker hopes to offer the system in the U.S. by the end of 2022.

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

[servodude]

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active. The automaker hopes to offer the system in the U.S. by the end of 2022.

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

[BobbyD]

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active. The automaker hopes to offer the system in the U.S. by the end of 2022.

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

If you'd rather have to sit there and navigate traffic jams yourself... It's a genuine autonomous solution to the bit of driving even the most enthusiastic driver won't miss, and would mean thousands could brush their teeth/fix their make up/read their book/ slurp their coffee entirely legally for most of their commutes... Hell if you timed it right you could probably autonomously circumnavigate the M25...

[servodude]

If you'd rather have to sit there and navigate traffic jams yourself... It's a genuine autonomous solution to the bit of driving even the most enthusiastic driver won't miss, and would mean thousands could brush their teeth/fix their make up/read their book/ slurp their coffee entirely legally for most of their commutes... Hell if you timed it right you could probably autonomously circumnavigate the M25...

there's really almost hee haw navigation to be done in a traffic jam

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed they'll assume the risk; that if nothing else will help public perception.
I just feel the headline was a bit over-egged

- sd

[BobbyD]

there's really almost hee haw navigation to be done in a traffic jam

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed they'll assume the risk; that if nothing else will help public perception.
I just feel the headline was a bit over-egged

With the Tesla you have to remain alert as you are still driving, with the Mercedes the car is driving and you can read a book. It's a massive difference, and a legitimate milestone. The first time you can sit in the drivers seat of a moving vehicle purchased from your local dealer, on a public road and play Wordle on your phone without breaking the law. Seems entirely appropriate to me.

[odysseus2000]

there's really almost hee haw navigation to be done in a traffic jam

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed they'll assume the risk; that if nothing else will help public perception.
I just feel the headline was a bit over-egged

With the Tesla you have to remain alert as you are still driving, with the Mercedes the car is driving and you can read a book. It's a massive difference, and a legitimate milestone. The first time you can sit in the drivers seat of a moving vehicle purchased from your local dealer, on a public road and play Wordle on your phone without breaking the law. Seems entirely appropriate to me.

With the Mercedes the driver has to stay alert as there is almost no where with the “self driving” necessary parameters exist.

However, if Putin cuts off German oil & gas the Mercedes that can get fuel may find itself alone on many roads.

Regards,

Regards,

[tjh290633]

With the Mercedes the driver has to stay alert as there is almost no where with the “self driving” necessary parameters exist.

You don't get around much, do you?

TJH

[CliffEdge]

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active. The automaker hopes to offer the system in the U.S. by the end of 2022.

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

So, useless.

[tjh290633]

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active. The automaker hopes to offer the system in the U.S. by the end of 2022.

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

So, useless.

I can see a use for it when crawling round the M25 under 40 mph limit signs. Or is that two separate conditions, either or both?

TJH

[BobbyD]

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active. The automaker hopes to offer the system in the U.S. by the end of 2022.

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

So, useless.

I can see a use for it when crawling round the M25 under 40 mph limit signs. Or is that two separate conditions, either or both?

TJH

That's exactly the design purpose. The Audi version was even called Traffic jam pilot, but it disappeared a while back on the unfortunate grounds that it wasn't actually legal to use it anywhere in the world at the time...

[CliffEdge]

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active. The automaker hopes to offer the system in the U.S. by the end of 2022.

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

So, useless.

I can see a use for it when crawling round the M25 under 40 mph limit signs. Or is that two separate conditions, either or both?

TJH

I certainly would not want to be reading a book under those circumstances.

[servodude]

- https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3948 ... s-a-crash/

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

So, useless.

I can see a use for it when crawling round the M25 under 40 mph limit signs. Or is that two separate conditions, either or both?

TJH

I certainly would not want to be reading a book under those circumstances.

It's an incremental step, that underwrites the existing tech with a legal "guarantee"
If it was promoted as "we'll take the fall if your smart cruise control fails" I'd have no issues; I think it's been tarted up a bit for the leader in the article

[BobbyD]

I thought "wow! there's a bona fide co-location of funds and cakehole"
- then I see it's for small values of "whenever": sub 40mph, on limited-access divided highways with no stoplights, roundabouts, or other traffic control systems, and no construction zones

still.. credit where it's due
- sd

So, useless.

I can see a use for it when crawling round the M25 under 40 mph limit signs. Or is that two separate conditions, either or both?

TJH

I certainly would not want to be reading a book under those circumstances.

It's an incremental step, that underwrites the existing tech with a legal "guarantee"
If it was promoted as "we'll take the fall if your smart cruise control fails" I'd have no issues; I think it's been tarted up a bit for the leader in the article

Smart cruise control is L2, this is L3. not only is that a whole extra L, it's the L which moves you from a driver assistance feature (blue) to an autonomous feature (green).

https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update

This doesn't underwrite existing comercially available tech, there is no other L3 system currently available to buy.

[servodude]

So, useless.

I can see a use for it when crawling round the M25 under 40 mph limit signs. Or is that two separate conditions, either or both?

TJH

I certainly would not want to be reading a book under those circumstances.

It's an incremental step, that underwrites the existing tech with a legal "guarantee"
If it was promoted as "we'll take the fall if your smart cruise control fails" I'd have no issues; I think it's been tarted up a bit for the leader in the article

Smart cruise control is L2, this is L3. not only is that a whole extra L, it's the L which moves you from a driver assistance feature (blue) to an autonomous feature (green).

https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update

This doesn't underwrite existing comercially available tech, there is no other L3 system currently available to buy.

Isn't this all simply semantics though?

I see you've added "commercially available" to tech and there's no doubt this ticks the box for the SAE level 3
- but what new/novel technology has been used to get it there?
- is there really anything that I won't have seen on an automated haulage system?

We're probably talking at cross purposes though which I guess is my fault as I went in to the article as a geek with a long time spent in automation
Honestly I'm really glad that the legal side and paperwork are catching up with what we can do in the control space
- but I get more excited by the fancy toys

- sd

[BobbyD]

We're probably talking at cross purposes though which I guess is my fault as I went in to the article as a geek with a long time spent in automation
Honestly I'm really glad that the legal side and paperwork are catching up with what we can do in the control space
- but I get more excited by the fancy toys

We probably are, so let's untangle. I'm not sure what it is about the headline which you think was oversold. It does contain one possible error in that it could be argued that Tesla's FSD was a more apt comparison, but what it says is entirely true, and doesn't seem sensationalist to me. Picks a low bar for comparison, but that's a different matter.

In 50 years time the answer to the quiz question 'Going back to before humans were banned from driving, which was the first commercially available autonomous driving system?' will be this. It's Yuri Gargarin, while others are trying to be Neil Armstrong, but we all still know who Yuri Gargarin is.

...and yes I said 'commercially available' because there are companies running L4 systems under special developmental and limited commercial licenses. But these aren't directly comparable systems. On top of the fact that they aren't licensed for sale to the public the L4/L5 race and the L2/L3 race have been completely different events (except for for Tesla who are competing in one, but identify as a competitor in the other (except when talking to the Californaia DMV), despite a significant point of cross over in companies like Mobileye and Aptiv who provide hardware to OEM's for one while competing in the other.

In one race serious people have sort to design top down a fully autonomous car, whilst in the other serious people and Tesla have sort to bolt functionality on to an adaptive cruise control to improve consumer experience and increase safety, mostly knowing that what this will get you is a snazzier cruise control not an autonomous car. The L4/L5 race is going rather well and frankly is far more interesting, and the L2/L3 race is successfully promoting the availability, uptake and even the legal requirement of more advanced safety features and what I guess you might describe as consumer 'toys'.

Moreover it appears that these two categories will remain separated in the way they roll out. L4/L5 systems will for the foreseeable future remain the purview of large TAAS fleets, largely run by the coalitions which built them, and added to on a city by city basis. L2/L3 systems will continue to rock up in cars at your local showroom. So again, no real point of comparison.

This is a lone point in the middle which makes it rather interesting. It has the child-like limited skillset of a L2 system, but is recognised as being a grown up like a L4 system. Not only do the company that builds it and regulators trust it to act unsupervised on public roads, but they trust it to be able to tell 10 seconds before it will need to hand back control to a human that in 10 seconds it will need to hand back to a human, and that it will behave appropriately if that human fails to take back control. This handover is unique. L4/5 systems don't need this functionality as the car is always driving, and L2 systems don't need it because the driver is always driving.

So I guess in summation:

- This isn't a small step up if your point of comparison is Tesla, this actually works.

- This isn't a small step up if your point of comparison is companies like Waymo and Motional, same sector different pathway.

- Actually allowing drivers to legally take their attention from the road in low to medium speed congestion is not only a notable first, but is likely to lead to significant reductions in driver stress and frustration, low speed accidents, and increased productivity. Seriously if this were available on the M25 it could add billions of usable hours to commuters' lives every year!

- If what you want is the 'toys' then how much better would this argument be if you could have it while stuck in a traffic jam which otherwise it turns out would lead to you wasting 35 minutes of your life paying attention to the bumper of the car in front of you moving forwards 3 car lengths every other minute (lorry overturned ahead).

Is it likely that if Mercedes hadn't got here nobody else would? No, like I said Audi had a similar system before it was legal to use it, but we have now done something which had not been done before. Is it likely that Mercedes have laid off some or all of the risk with an insurance policy? Probably, but this is actually a good thing, if Mercedes can't get insurance on the system then no-one will be able to which means legal use will remain technically achievable, but realistically unachievable.

So we have a cool new toy, with a potentially massive payoff, its manufacturer has removed a major stumbling block in its adoption, insurance, from the equation and autonomy on public roads has crossed form a 'definitely next year' to an 'actually that happened last year'.

It's not a time machine, but the headline didn't claim it was, it just said

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

which they have.

ETA: The comparison made is with autopilot not FSD, autopilot is a really limited set of functionalities. Personally I think FSD is a better comparison because FSD aspires to autonomy, but the comparison to autopilot doesn't imply anything like the degree of functionality you might read in to a comparison to FSD, autopilot is similarly cruise control like, but not at all autonomous.

[servodude]

It's not a time machine, but the headline didn't claim it was, it just said

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

which they have.

Indeed

I also read:

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active.

and said:

it's for small values of whenever

cue discussion re semantics

- sd

[BobbyD]

It's not a time machine, but the headline didn't claim it was, it just said

Mercedes Drive Pilot Beats Tesla Autopilot By Taking Legal Responsibility

which they have.

Indeed

I also read:

Mercedes will accept full legal responsibility for the vehicle whenever Drive Pilot is active.

and said:

it's for small values of whenever

cue discussion re semantics

- sd

...at launch. That a regulator has approved any value is in itself a landmark.

[BobbyD]

added this above while you were responding:

ETA: The comparison made is with autopilot not FSD, autopilot is a really limited set of functionalities. Personally I think FSD is a better comparison because FSD aspires to autonomy, but the comparison to autopilot doesn't imply anything like the degree of functionality you might read in to a comparison to FSD, autopilot is similarly cruise control like, but not at all autonomous.