EU, Brexit and Immigration

[doolally]

We have a direct link to our representatives: If we don't like them we can remove them at the next election. This is democracy,
Citizens in the EU do not control who is in charge and can not remove them at the next election. This is a totalitarian state.

There is no historical evidence that large scale organisations, spanning greatly different cultures and governed by folk who the governed can not remove are effective.

Contrast the now decayed Soviet empire with the US for example.

It is important that people can trade internationally with few restrictions and are free to elect people who suit their needs rather than some theoretical need spanning many different cultures, practices and what ever.

It is also important that people are allowed to develop and try technologies and ways of working that may or may not be beneficial rather than having some blanket policy applied across the whole population. E.g. what is good practice in Northern Europe may not be suitable for Southern Europe. The EU is in secular decline by having politicians rather than business decide what is appropriate and as a consequence the EU has virtually no significant players in the Internet economy that has created so much wealth for the US and China.

Regards,

So citizens who do not control who is in charge and cannot remove them are in a totalitarian state? Like China?

And

There is no historical evidence that large scale organisations, spanning greatly different cultures and governed by folk who the governed can not remove are effective.

Like China?

The EU is in secular decline by having politicians rather than business decide what is appropriate and as a consequence the EU has virtually no significant players in the Internet economy that has created so much wealth for the US and China.

So China is successful!
doolally

[odysseus2000]

We have a direct link to our representatives: If we don't like them we can remove them at the next election. This is democracy,
Citizens in the EU do not control who is in charge and can not remove them at the next election. This is a totalitarian state.

There is no historical evidence that large scale organisations, spanning greatly different cultures and governed by folk who the governed can not remove are effective.

Contrast the now decayed Soviet empire with the US for example.

It is important that people can trade internationally with few restrictions and are free to elect people who suit their needs rather than some theoretical need spanning many different cultures, practices and what ever.

It is also important that people are allowed to develop and try technologies and ways of working that may or may not be beneficial rather than having some blanket policy applied across the whole population. E.g. what is good practice in Northern Europe may not be suitable for Southern Europe. The EU is in secular decline by having politicians rather than business decide what is appropriate and as a consequence the EU has virtually no significant players in the Internet economy that has created so much wealth for the US and China.

Regards,

So citizens who do not control who is in charge and cannot remove them are in a totalitarian state? Like China?

And

There is no historical evidence that large scale organisations, spanning greatly different cultures and governed by folk who the governed can not remove are effective.

Like China?

The EU is in secular decline by having politicians rather than business decide what is appropriate and as a consequence the EU has virtually no significant players in the Internet economy that has created so much wealth for the US and China.

So China is successful!
doolally

China has been very successful in their new experiment by offering high quality products at low prices to countries like the UK who have abandoned large amounts of manufacturing.

Does that situation continue now that China has become so big and where the wage issues have reversed: China for example is a huge market for Tesla cars.

As of now China's expansion has been like Japans and then all of a sudden Japan got itself into an economic mess.

There are a whole host of factors at play here and it will be interesting to see if China's politicians can handle the emergence of India and the emergence of AI and robotics in the western economies.

History suggests that China's political system will not find this easy.

Regards,

[XFool]

This great economic migration is making uk residents life miserable. A neighbour has been waiting two years to see a consultant & was just told he will have to wait another 8 months & that kind of long wait is common. These economic migrants are just queue jumpers working the system & hurting long time residents.

Are you claiming everyone ahead of him in the queue is an economic migrant? Or 50% are and that is the only cause of the queue? How do you know? Is this the only explanation why there is such a delay? What about the last two years? What about how the NHS is run and financed?

This seems to me to illustrate what appears to have become common in the UK - blame someone else. The idea that nothing is the responsibility of our own governments or its policies, or the voters who voted for them! Everything is someone else's fault: The EU, immigrants, 'foreigners' in general. Never "us".

No one cares what the causes of the long waits are as we all know that it is very difficult to believe what ever we are told, but everyone wants the waits over and we also want to control who comes into the country and not make the gangsters yet more wealthy with their wicked and dangerous trade.

So... it doesn't matter what the real reason for anything is, as long as we have some foreign types to blame for all our woes?

That's what I thought.

[PeterGray]

We have a direct link to our representatives: If we don't like them we can remove them at the next election. This is democracy,

Citizens in the EU do not control who is in charge and can not remove them at the next election. This is a totalitarian state.

This is rubbish, as usual.

Nearly all EU legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, which is directly elected, and which Britain elected members of, prior to Brexit.

The main exception is budgets, where it works with the Council, but cannot veto unilaterally.

The council is made up of ministers of the elected govts of the member states.

So yes, citizens can remove those in charge, primarily by voting them out at the next EU elections, or by voting out the domestic govt whose ministers serve on the Council. That may not be as direct as some might wish, but it so far from totalitarianism to be laughable. And is at least as immediately responsive to citizens wishes as the British first past the post system which allows minority parties to form govts with large majorities and place unelected associates in the Lords where they can both influence legislation and even act as ministers.

[odysseus2000]

XFool

So... it doesn't matter what the real reason for anything is, as long as we have some foreign types to blame for all our woes?

That's what I thought.

The English speaking people have a long established system of an adversarial nature. It is the job of the opposition to explain why the government is bad & why they are good.

So if you want someone to blame it is the opposition who seem happy to give the electorate a choice between Captain Liar & Captain Boring.

If the system is working the opposition would explain why there are such long waits for medical treatment & would blame it all on the government, but we don’t have that & so people find their own explanations & blame the waits on the increase in the uk population due to illegal immigration. It is the oppositions job to funnel that anger at the government.

What we are seeing is a failure of the uk politicians to do their jobs & come the election if enough people don’t like them they will be gone. We could not do the same to the controlling power in Brussels, just elect a few folk with no power to change anything.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

We have a direct link to our representatives: If we don't like them we can remove them at the next election. This is democracy,

Citizens in the EU do not control who is in charge and can not remove them at the next election. This is a totalitarian state.

This is rubbish, as usual.

Nearly all EU legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, which is directly elected, and which Britain elected members of, prior to Brexit.

The main exception is budgets, where it works with the Council, but cannot veto unilaterally.

The council is made up of ministers of the elected govts of the member states.

So yes, citizens can remove those in charge, primarily by voting them out at the next EU elections, or by voting out the domestic govt whose ministers serve on the Council. That may not be as direct as some might wish, but it so far from totalitarianism to be laughable. And is at least as immediately responsive to citizens wishes as the British first past the post system which allows minority parties to form govts with large majorities and place unelected associates in the Lords where they can both influence legislation and even act as ministers.

Did you cast a vote for the president of the European Parliament?

No, neither did I & that is the definition of a totalitarian state: You can’t vote them out!

Regards,

[mike]

We have a direct link to our representatives: If we don't like them we can remove them at the next election. This is democracy,

Citizens in the EU do not control who is in charge and can not remove them at the next election. This is a totalitarian state.

This is rubbish, as usual.

Nearly all EU legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, which is directly elected, and which Britain elected members of, prior to Brexit.

The main exception is budgets, where it works with the Council, but cannot veto unilaterally.

The council is made up of ministers of the elected govts of the member states.

So yes, citizens can remove those in charge, primarily by voting them out at the next EU elections, or by voting out the domestic govt whose ministers serve on the Council. That may not be as direct as some might wish, but it so far from totalitarianism to be laughable. And is at least as immediately responsive to citizens wishes as the British first past the post system which allows minority parties to form govts with large majorities and place unelected associates in the Lords where they can both influence legislation and even act as ministers.

Did you cast a vote for the president of the European Parliament?

No, neither did I & that is the definition of a totalitarian state: You can’t vote them out!

Regards,

And did you cast a vote for the Speaker of the House of Commons ?

[Speaker is the term used in the Houses of Parliament, the US and Germany. President is used in France, Spain, the EU and Scotland (almost) for the person peforming the same function]


Edit : typos

[odysseus2000]

Mike
And did you cast a vote for the Speaker of the House of Commons ?

[Speaker is the term used in the Houses of Parliament, the US and Germany. President is used in France, Spain, the EU and Scotland (almost) for the person peforming the same function]

Ha Ha

I am on the voting register in the Speakers constituency & all the major opposition parties do not put up candidates against the speaker.

Anyhow, the speaker is not part of the executive whereas the president of the EU is.

What is your point?

Regards,

[PeterGray]

Did you cast a vote for the president of the European Parliament?

No, neither did I & that is the definition of a totalitarian state: You can’t vote them out!

No, but I didn't vote for the Queen, or the members of the Lords. Or the PM! The only people who voted for Johnson as PM (not MP) were the membership of the Tory party.

The EU president is elected by all members of the EU parliament. (Sounds rather more democratic to me)

If you really think this makes the EU "totalitarian" I'd suggest you have no idea what that means or how the EU works. Perhaps time to try at least a little minimal self education on the subject (and that does't mean taking the highly biased nonsense people like UKIP or the ERG come up with as the truth.)

[odysseus2000]

Did you cast a vote for the president of the European Parliament?

No, neither did I & that is the definition of a totalitarian state: You can’t vote them out!

No, but I didn't vote for the Queen, or the members of the Lords. Or the PM! The only people who voted for Johnson as PM (not MP) were the membership of the Tory party.

The EU president is elected by all members of the EU parliament. (Sounds rather more democratic to me)

If you really think this makes the EU "totalitarian" I'd suggest you have no idea what that means or how the EU works. Perhaps time to try at least a little minimal self education on the subject (and that does't mean taking the highly biased nonsense people like UKIP or the ERG come up with as the truth.)

As you may be aware the Queen & any member of the Royal family & also members of the House of Lords can not be voted in or out by the people, but none of them have executive power. Sure the House of Lords can send bills back, but the commons can over ride that, this going back to the days of Lloyd George who broke the power of the Lords early in the last century.

As things are the uk people electors votes in or out politicians based on their pre election promises, but the politicians then decide who is to lead them.

The US is yet more democratic by electing their president.

In the EU there is no direct coupling between the electors in Britain & the EU executive. We may hate an EU policy but we can not vote the EU politicians out.

If you can’t vote your representatives out you do not live in a democracy.

Regards,

[SalvorHardin]

In the EU there is no direct coupling between the electors in Britain & the EU executive. We may hate an EU policy but we can not vote the EU politicians out.

If you can’t vote your representatives out you do not live in a democracy.

For me the lack of accountability within the system was the major reason for my voting to leave the EU (the erosion of common law and its replacement by The EU's corpus juris was the second)

Tony Benn's "five democratic questions" was arguably his only political opinion which I agreed with (my bold):

"In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions: “What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

It's quote two in this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/15/10-of-the-best-tony-benn-quotes-as-picked-by-our-readers

Here is Tony Benn in parliament stating the five questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0gWYmYy77o

For some remainers, wanting to be able to vote the lawmakers out makes you a Nazi.

[PeterGray]

We may hate an EU policy but we can not vote the EU politicians out.

Except, of course, you can!

Members of the European parliament are directly elected, and must pass the great majority of any legislation.

The European council are all elected members of their respective domestic governments. So they can only be there if their own government has the support of their electorate (or at least did at the last election).

Your complaints come down, again to rejection of the idea that mutliple countries working together, which ineviably involves some compromise on issues, is benefical to them.

You may disagree with that idea, though I'd say you were wrong, but dressing that objection up with phoney arguments about democracy and totalitarianism is risible, and really just exposes the lack of arguments against.

[odysseus2000]

PeterGray
Except, of course, you can!

Members of the European parliament are directly elected, and must pass the great majority of any legislation.

This is delusional thinking.

If every representative in the EU parliament didn’t like a policy they could refuse to pass it, but in most cases this does not happen. You instead have some folk liking the policy & even if every UK representative votes against the policy it could be carried by those representatives who love it.

This is not democracy for the UK.

Regards,

[PeterGray]

If every representative in the EU parliament didn’t like a policy they could refuse to pass it, but in most cases this does not happen. You instead have some folk liking the policy & even if every UK representative votes against the policy it could be carried by those representatives who love it.

You've just proved my point, exactly. Your complaint is that the MEPs from an individual country have to work with other countries to make law, and can't make it on their own. That's not an issue of democracy, and it certainly isn't totalitarian. It's an issue that's inevitable when countries work together for their mutual benefit - which they have successfully for several decades. If you don't like that, OK. But don't try and pretend it's about any normal understanding of democracy, just be honest about it.

[ursaminortaur]

We may hate an EU policy but we can not vote the EU politicians out.

Except, of course, you can!

Members of the European parliament are directly elected, and must pass the great majority of any legislation.

The European council are all elected members of their respective domestic governments. So they can only be there if their own government has the support of their electorate (or at least did at the last election).

Your complaints come down, again to rejection of the idea that mutliple countries working together, which ineviably involves some compromise on issues, is benefical to them.

You may disagree with that idea, though I'd say you were wrong, but dressing that objection up with phoney arguments about democracy and totalitarianism is risible, and really just exposes the lack of arguments against.

And the MEPs in the European parliament can even get rid of the Commission and have in the past.

[odysseus2000]

If every representative in the EU parliament didn’t like a policy they could refuse to pass it, but in most cases this does not happen. You instead have some folk liking the policy & even if every UK representative votes against the policy it could be carried by those representatives who love it.

You've just proved my point, exactly. Your complaint is that the MEPs from an individual country have to work with other countries to make law, and can't make it on their own. That's not an issue of democracy, and it certainly isn't totalitarian. It's an issue that's inevitable when countries work together for their mutual benefit - which they have successfully for several decades. If you don't like that, OK. But don't try and pretend it's about any normal understanding of democracy, just be honest about it.

This is continued delusional thinking.

The EU system deprives the UK electorate of direct action to remove laws they don't like. In the EU we were not self determining, we did not have the basic tenant of democracy:The ability to remove what we don't like.

Regards,

[ursaminortaur]

PeterGray
Except, of course, you can!

Members of the European parliament are directly elected, and must pass the great majority of any legislation.

This is delusional thinking.

If every representative in the EU parliament didn’t like a policy they could refuse to pass it, but in most cases this does not happen. You instead have some folk liking the policy & even if every UK representative votes against the policy it could be carried by those representatives who love it.

This is not democracy for the UK.

Regards,

At least the seat distribution (and thus vote distribution) in the EU parliament is relatively even with no member country having an overwhelming majority of seats unlike in the UK HoC where in the 2019 general election there were 533 English seats, 59 Scottish seats, 40 Welsh seats and 18 Northern Irish seats. In the EU parliament although Germany has the most seats at 96 (because of its large population) that is out of 705 total seats. Thus whilst English MPs can bulldoze legislation affecting Scotland, Wales and NI through the HoC countries in the EU have to co-operate to pass legislation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_Westminster_MPs#Number_of_MPs_by_country

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/20180126STO94114/infographic-how-many-seats-does-each-country-get-in-in-the-european-parliament

[PeterGray]

The EU system deprives the UK electorate of direct action to remove laws they don't like.

Yes, of course. That's the consequence of working together. You've just proved my point again, you really seem unable to understand.

Not much point in going on here really, I think!

[Spet0789]

In the EU there is no direct coupling between the electors in Britain & the EU executive. We may hate an EU policy but we can not vote the EU politicians out.

If you can’t vote your representatives out you do not live in a democracy.

For me the lack of accountability within the system was the major reason for my voting to leave the EU (the erosion of common law and its replacement by The EU's corpus juris was the second)

Tony Benn's "five democratic questions" was arguably his only political opinion which I agreed with (my bold):

"In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions: “What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

It's quote two in this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/15/10-of-the-best-tony-benn-quotes-as-picked-by-our-readers

Here is Tony Benn in parliament stating the five questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0gWYmYy77o

For some remainers, wanting to be able to vote the lawmakers out makes you a Nazi.

In what way was the common law eroded?

[odysseus2000]

The EU system deprives the UK electorate of direct action to remove laws they don't like.

Yes, of course. That's the consequence of working together. You've just proved my point again, you really seem unable to understand.

Not much point in going on here really, I think!

You seem to have finally conceded my point.

The next question is did the UK being in the EU lead to better prosperity & increased living standards for the UK population?

The answer is no.

We now have long waiting lists for health care & such poverty that people have to rely on food banks. In the most prosperous times ever folk in the uk have to rely on food banks. Amazingly bad!

Whether this poverty is due to the EU or other factors can be discussed but post Brexit some one can complain to their MP & threaten to vote them out if things do not improve. Nothing may change but the elected & the electors are directly coupled together & the MPcan not argue that he/she can do nothing because the EU makes policy.

Regards,