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Musk endeavours

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BobbyD
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Re: Musk endeavours

#427231

Postby BobbyD » July 13th, 2021, 2:41 am

odysseus2000 wrote:This is the Guardian take on the Musk/(solar city) case:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... er-lawsuit

imho the writer of this article is clueless about how the US justice and corporate systems work.

The settlement of the case by other directors means nothing as none have accepted liability, just a way to avoid having to stand in court and testify and as I understand how Tesla corporate insurance is set up, their payments came directly from Musk as he self insures the directors.

Regards,


That was for 3 months last year, but if you want to talk about a conflict then board members being personally reliant on the CEO's vouchsafe that he'll cover their exposure to legal claims up to the value of $100,000,000 rather than cover them with a regular insurance policy would be a prime example.

odysseus2000
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Re: Musk endeavours

#427248

Postby odysseus2000 » July 13th, 2021, 7:47 am

Munro, Ford machE suspension (18 mins):

https://youtu.be/c2DmFRBspe4

Some interesting points comparing Ford, ID4 and Tesla suspensions.

Regards,

odysseus2000
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Re: Musk endeavours

#427252

Postby odysseus2000 » July 13th, 2021, 7:51 am

BobbyD
That was for 3 months last year, but if you want to talk about a conflict then board members being personally reliant on the CEO's vouchsafe that he'll cover their exposure to legal claims up to the value of $100,000,000 rather than cover them with a regular insurance policy would be a prime example.


This does not follow. Many times insurance companies refuse claims for all manner of reasons. Having ones CEO underwrite in the way that Musk has looks a way better and more reliable deal to me.

Regards,

dealtn
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Re: Musk endeavours

#427256

Postby dealtn » July 13th, 2021, 8:02 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
BobbyD
That was for 3 months last year, but if you want to talk about a conflict then board members being personally reliant on the CEO's vouchsafe that he'll cover their exposure to legal claims up to the value of $100,000,000 rather than cover them with a regular insurance policy would be a prime example.


This does not follow. Many times insurance companies refuse claims for all manner of reasons. Having ones CEO underwrite in the way that Musk has looks a way better and more reliable deal to me.

Regards,


Define "better".

In this context the remark was about Board conflict. You really think a single Board member individually insuring other Board members has less potential conflict than an independent insurer doing the same?

I wonder what your claim would have been if that was the model adopted by "legacy auto", self-insuring through their finance arm, if Tesla had an independent insurer. Given your previous comments about "internal" sales of cars I think we know the answer.

Do you ever demonstrate independent thought yourself or are you too entwined in confirmation bias to ever see beyond your support for certain companies?

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Re: Musk endeavours

#427315

Postby scrumpyjack » July 13th, 2021, 10:30 am

"Nuke Mars"

I see from the latest PC Pro magazine, which has an article on Musk: Never boring, that his plan to warm up Mars and so make it habitable is dropping thermonuclear bombs on each of its poles. He has said he plans to go there. Not sure if it is a one way trip :D

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Re: Musk endeavours

#427373

Postby odysseus2000 » July 13th, 2021, 1:46 pm

dealtn
Define "better".
le
In this context the remark was about Board conflict. You really think a single Board member individually insuring other Board members has less potential conflict than an independent insurer doing the same?

I wonder what your claim would have been if that was the model adopted by "legacy auto", self-insuring through their finance arm, if Tesla had an independent insurer. Given your previous comments about "internal" sales of cars I think we know the answer.


The issue with insurance is will the insurer pay if there is a claim.

Having Musk under-write board members liability gives a direct link between the board and the wealthy CEO, saving a lot of insurance premium for the company and setting up a mechanism where if Musk did not pay, board members would be potentially plunged into bankruptcy, disqualifying them from staying on the board and/or leading to large sales of Tesla equity by board members, both things the would hurt the company.

The issue with legacy auto selling cars internally is that VW in this case used the internal sales to show how well the ID platform was selling by not disclosing the many internal sales.

Comparing the open business cash saving arrangement of Musk to the covert arrangement of VW that was designed to mis-lead punters tells all observers all they need to know.

dealtn
Do you ever demonstrate independent thought yourself or are you too entwined in confirmation bias to ever see beyond your support for certain companies?


I look at how company behaviour affects share holder funds and business reputations. All of Musk covering board members liability actions reflect well on Tesla corporate government, whereas the VW internal sales adds another indelible stain to the diesel-gate tattered reputation of VW and the stain of poor quality of the VW engineering as shown by Munro tear downs.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#427385

Postby dealtn » July 13th, 2021, 2:39 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
dealtn
Define "better".
le
In this context the remark was about Board conflict. You really think a single Board member individually insuring other Board members has less potential conflict than an independent insurer doing the same?

I wonder what your claim would have been if that was the model adopted by "legacy auto", self-insuring through their finance arm, if Tesla had an independent insurer. Given your previous comments about "internal" sales of cars I think we know the answer.


The issue with insurance is will the insurer pay if there is a claim.


No, the issue being discussed is Board conflict.

odysseus2000 wrote:
dealtn
Do you ever demonstrate independent thought yourself or are you too entwined in confirmation bias to ever see beyond your support for certain companies?


All of Musk covering board members liability actions reflect well on Tesla corporate government,



No, it absolutely doesn't.

BobbyD
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Re: Musk endeavours

#427393

Postby BobbyD » July 13th, 2021, 2:54 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:The issue with insurance is will the insurer pay if there is a claim.


No, it's the question of whether a body being insured by an individual who it is their job to manage is compromised in its independence to the detriment of those the board is, nominally atleast, responsible to.

odysseus2000 wrote:Having Musk under-write board members liability gives a direct link between the board and the wealthy CEO, saving a lot of insurance premium for the company...


Musk was paid $3 million for the cover and is guaranteed a pro-rata rebalancing if the subsequent policy proves more expensive. Musk is shouldering risk, something he has no problem with, in return for taking coin, something else he has no problem with - not performing an act of charity.

odysseus2000 wrote:...if Musk did not pay, board members would be potentially plunged into bankruptcy, disqualifying them from staying on the board and/or leading to large sales of Tesla equity by board members, both things the would hurt the company.


With a board that has no apparent control over their CEO that's debatable, but that isn't the alternative, the alternative was Tesla pay somebody other than Musk for a conventional insurance arrangement.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#427408

Postby BobbyD » July 13th, 2021, 3:39 pm

VW lifts profit targets as it outlines battery production plans


...In its first strategy update since late last year, VW —which is home to the Audi, Porsche and Seat brands — forecast that profit margins for electric vehicles would be on a par with those of combustion engine models, “within the next two to three years”, largely due to higher taxes and regulatory pressures.

...VW also announced plans to build a new gigafactory in Spain with an annual capacity of 40 Gigawatt hours, adding to plants already under construction in Sweden and Germany.

Chief executive Herbert Diess said VW would be “one of the biggest battery users globally”, adding that it would “cover 80 per cent of our electric volume” with its own battery production by 2030.

The group would aim to produce its first “affordable” battery electric vehicle, priced between €20,000 and €25,000, in Germany from 2025. Both decisions would be dependent on state subsidies, VW said.

Alongside the factory in Spain, VW confirmed that the proposed battery plant in Salzgitter, roughly 50km from the group’s Wolfsburg headquarters, would now be built in collaboration with China’s Gotion High-Tech. VW became Gotion’s largest shareholder when its Chinese subsidiary invested €1.1bn last year.

In total, VW plans to build six giga factories in Europe by 2030, with a total capacity of 240 GWh per year. Chief financial officer Arno Antlitz told analysts that the company only plans to pay for one of the factories out of its own pocket, with the rest being financed via partnerships.



- https://www.ft.com/content/cf53d51f-bcb ... 6e9eeba13c

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Re: Musk endeavours

#427722

Postby BobbyD » July 14th, 2021, 5:58 pm

e-up we're off to South America!

The traditional German automaker Volkswagen has chosen Uruguay as the first country in Latin America to receive its assortment of fully electricity-powered models, it was announced during a ceremony which was attended by President Luis Lacalle Pou.

So far, only some hybrid models had been sold in Argentina (Touareg Hybrid) and Brazil (Golf GTE).

VW South America CEO, the Argentine executive Pablo Di Si, handed over the keys to the first 10 VW e-Up! Two of those first units will be transferred to the Uruguayan Industry Ministry to form be a part of its fleet of vehicles.

...Uruguay is the smallest country in South America and does not have its own oil production: today, 98% of the electrical energy that supplies the country comes from renewable sources, such as solar and wind energy. In addition, the country has one of the highest densities of chargers for electric cars in the world: among the most distant chargers there are no more than 100 kilometers.

The first 10 VW e-Up! that were presented in Uruguay will carry out 12 thousand test kilometers each. Upon completion of that trial, marketing to the public will begin.


- https://en.mercopress.com/2021/07/14/vo ... an-landing

Still at an early stage of adopting the technology, Latin American and Caribbean countries are gradually growing the number of privately-owned electric vehicles (EVs) on the streets. In 2020, there were 10,766, supported by a network of 1,292 public charging stations. The trend is expected to accelerate as governments transition towards cleaner transport.


- https://dialogochino.net/en/climate-ene ... ar-market/

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428233

Postby odysseus2000 » July 17th, 2021, 7:32 am

Tesla FSD now available as a subscription for $199 per month if car has the hardware for fsd, else need to pay $1500 to upgrade to fed hardware:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fsd-sub ... nal-price/

If we round this to $200 per month, the break even time for paying $10k up front is:

10,000/(12 x 200) = 4,17 years.

For typical 3 year leases the subscription will be cheaper.

My guess is that the subscription will be popular & will be liked by analysts as a high margin recurring revenue stream.

Regards

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428536

Postby BobbyD » July 18th, 2021, 5:00 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Tesla FSD now available as a subscription for $199 per month if car has the hardware for fsd, else need to pay $1500 to upgrade to fed hardware:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fsd-sub ... nal-price/

If we round this to $200 per month, the break even time for paying $10k up front is:

10,000/(12 x 200) = 4,17 years.

For typical 3 year leases the subscription will be cheaper.

My guess is that the subscription will be popular & will be liked by analysts as a high margin recurring revenue stream.

Regards


Run out of people willing to pay $10,000 for vapourware they have told authorities will never exceed L2?

When is the last time Tesla sold a car they didn't claim had hardware capable of running FSD? Seems strange to be charging for something they already charged for.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428568

Postby odysseus2000 » July 18th, 2021, 6:45 pm

BobbyD
Run out of people willing to pay $10,000 for vapourware they have told authorities will never exceed L2?

When is the last time Tesla sold a car they didn't claim had hardware capable of running FSD? Seems strange to be charging for something they already charged for.


Tesla started shipping hardware 3 (HW3) in March 2019:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot

The statement to the authorities was that HW3 may never be capable of Level 5, but things change such as removal of radar, and the latest software is remarkably impressive and the new subscription model is great for leasers who normally lease for 3 years.

I think its called a software business model and is one of many reasons why you can't value Tesla like a legacy auto.

Regards

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428570

Postby BobbyD » July 18th, 2021, 7:01 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
BobbyD
Run out of people willing to pay $10,000 for vapourware they have told authorities will never exceed L2?

When is the last time Tesla sold a car they didn't claim had hardware capable of running FSD? Seems strange to be charging for something they already charged for.


Tesla started shipping hardware 3 (HW3) in March 2019:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot

The statement to the authorities was that HW3 may never be capable of Level 5, but things change such as removal of radar, and the latest software is remarkably impressive and the new subscription model is great for leasers who normally lease for 3 years.

I think its called a software business model and is one of many reasons why you can't value Tesla like a legacy auto.

Regards


Tesla claimed that all their cars from this point on, inclosing the $35k model 3 contained all the hardware necessary for FSD in 2016...

Given that claim, it seems impolite to charge people who bought cars with all the hardware necessary for FSD to have some extra hardware installed so that it can run FSD...

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428580

Postby odysseus2000 » July 18th, 2021, 7:25 pm

BobbyD
Tesla claimed that all their cars from this point on, inclosing the $35k model 3 contained all the hardware necessary for FSD in 2016...

Given that claim, it seems impolite to charge people who bought cars with all the hardware necessary for FSD to have some extra hardware installed so that it can run FSD...


All that matters is whether folk will pay.

Whether things are polite or not is in many ways covered by the inherent difficulty of the creation as seen by the punters.

When punters saw there was a lot of closed source software being changed purely to make money, a backlash began. If however, punters see that what Tesla is doing is being forced on them by the inherent difficulty of the project, there is less likelihood of a backlash. Troubles could occur if another manufacturer offers the same or better performance for less money, but currently I do not see that as likely.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428604

Postby BobbyD » July 18th, 2021, 8:34 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
BobbyD
Tesla claimed that all their cars from this point on, inclosing the $35k model 3 contained all the hardware necessary for FSD in 2016...

Given that claim, it seems impolite to charge people who bought cars with all the hardware necessary for FSD to have some extra hardware installed so that it can run FSD...


All that matters is whether folk will pay.


Tesla sold cars they explicitly claimed had all the hardware necessary for FSD.

Now they are trying to charge the owners of those vehicles for a hardware upgrade so they can run FSD.

It's possible a lawyer might disagree with you.

We discussed this years back. Tesla made promises they at best had no way of knowing were true, and if they had any idea what they were talking about should have known in all probability weren't.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428607

Postby odysseus2000 » July 18th, 2021, 8:48 pm

BobbyD
Tesla sold cars they explicitly claimed had all the hardware necessary for FSD.

Now they are trying to charge the owners of those vehicles for a hardware upgrade so they can run FSD.

It's possible a lawyer might disagree with you.

We discussed this years back. Tesla made promises they at best had no way of knowing were true, and if they had any idea what they were talking about should have known in all probability weren't.


And yet Tesla continue to sell cars with most of 3 rd quarter model Y sold out.

Regards,
Last edited by tjh290633 on July 18th, 2021, 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428610

Postby BobbyD » July 18th, 2021, 8:55 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
BobbyD
Tesla sold cars they explicitly claimed had all the hardware necessary for FSD.

Now they are trying to charge the owners of those vehicles for a hardware upgrade so they can run FSD.

It's possible a lawyer might disagree with you.

We discussed this years back. Tesla made promises they at best had no way of knowing were true, and if they had any idea what they were talking about should have known in all probability weren't.
[/quote

And yet Tesla continue to sell cars with most of 3 rd quarter model Y sold out.

Regards,


...and you continue to post complete non-sequiturs!

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428614

Postby odysseus2000 » July 18th, 2021, 9:28 pm

BobbyD
...and you continue to post complete non-sequiturs!


I continue to post observations that are relevant to the equity price.

Whether you feel Tesla has treated and/or mislead its consumers is something unique to you. The current sales figures show that enough buyers are not concerned about things that you are.

In the end it is not what anyone thinks, but the profits Tesla make that matters to the equity price.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#428617

Postby dealtn » July 18th, 2021, 9:36 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
Whether you feel Tesla has treated and/or mislead its consumers is something unique to you.


Are you sure you understand what the word "unique" means?


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