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Musk endeavours

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odysseus2000
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Re: Musk endeavours

#342110

Postby odysseus2000 » September 23rd, 2020, 8:19 am

redsturgeon
Battery day a bit of a damp squib then.

I'd be willing to bet that we will not see a $25,000 dollar Tesla in 2022.

John


No battery day, was another example of the oft quoted "Stock markets always look ahead"

Many of the huge advances discussed yesterday had already been put into the price of Tesla equity which made it into the stock of our time. It started the year around $90 and is now around $400.

The days when Tesla was close to failure are now gone and a new and powerful secular trend in transportation has been established and is now consolidating on three continents. This is a secular trend of remarkable strength.

While I would not be surprised if Tesla has a flat to weak next several months as the foundations for a huge price advance are laid, there will imho likely be opportunities to short existing legacy. BMW looks doomed to me and either fails or is bought out, likely by Chinese investors.

It would not surprise me if the Model 2 starts at $25k and then the price falls in line with how Henry Ford sold the Model T.

Tesla now has the projects and the reward structures to attract the best and most committed young engineering which is another factor that will propel its future.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342144

Postby dspp » September 23rd, 2020, 9:47 am

My big takeaways:

1. The product introduction roadmap remains on course and remains highly competitive;
2. The factory build programme remains on course, with confirmation that factories are now being sized for 1m cars/yr;
3. The cell supply programme is ramping commensurate with 20m cars/yr in 2030;
4. Plus the cell technology decline curve has been rebaselined in a way that likely obsoletes all competitors efforts and enables even more compelling products;
5. Plus raw material supply being assured;
6. Plus capex/GWh, space/GWh, and people/GWh are all being transformed downwards;
7. Plus the cell supply will now enable a 50/50 mix of vehicles/storage by 2030, though I am uncertain as to whether that is 50/50 in GWh (more likely), or revenue (less likely);
8; And probably about 1/3-2/3 of that future cell supply will now be internal to Tesla;
9. Plus I am very happy to watch the good top-team dynamics & competencies.

Adding this together it creates;

i. Hope for a more global energy rapid transition;
ii. Fear for the longevity of any dino-juice competitor that is not already with-it;
iii. Strategically this suggests they are now aiming for 20 factories by 2030, so if your country has not already booked a place on that map then your industry is toast;
iv. I will probably need to increase some of my valuations upwards to take account of the hoped for, but now confirmed, stationary storage volumes as well as the other stuff (autonomy etc).
v. I don't see anyone else, whether in vehicles or in storage, that has the scale and competency and resources and ambition to pose a threat at this time.

You can watch the presentation at https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/2020shareholdermeeting

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342156

Postby dspp » September 23rd, 2020, 10:02 am

dspp wrote:ii. Fear for the longevity of any dino-juice competitor that is not already with-it; dspp


On that note, thank you to illuminati at Teslarati who has helpfully posted this list, in the comments section of https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-price/

GM’s long term debt = $100 billion ( + a US$14 billion unpaid bailout loan)
Daimler’s long term debt = $106 billion
BMW’s long term debt = $127 billion
Ford’s long term debt = $154 billion
Toyota’s long term debt = $185 billion
VW’s long term debt = $211 billion

Tesla’s long term debt = $13 billion


:)

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342164

Postby dspp » September 23rd, 2020, 10:12 am

dspp wrote:4. Plus the cell technology decline curve has been rebaselined in a way that likely obsoletes all competitors efforts and enables even more compelling products;

You can watch the presentation at https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/2020shareholdermeeting

regards, dspp


from the presentation

Image

- dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342167

Postby dspp » September 23rd, 2020, 10:20 am

dspp wrote:My big takeaways:
.............
You can watch the presentation at https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/2020shareholdermeeting

regards, dspp


Best single list write up of detail here,

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-5015502

regards, dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342176

Postby BobbyD » September 23rd, 2020, 10:50 am

redsturgeon wrote:Battery day a bit of a damp squib then.

I'd be willing to bet that we will not see a $25,000 dollar Tesla in 2022.

John


Why? All they need to do is buy an ID.3 pure with German subsidies and put a Tesla badge on it. Easy!

Tesla have 2 vehicles in production, 2 in semi retirement and 4 still made out of the same paper as their autonomous driving feature.

Manana Musk the Vaporware Vizier.

Still nice to see that the ID.3 hit its delivery target of first cars in customers hands in Summer 2020, somebody has to keep the electric market moving forwards.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342233

Postby Howard » September 23rd, 2020, 1:12 pm

I think the only problem that Tesla has is selling cars. ;)

Sales volumes don't look too good at the moment. China has been a bit of a disappointment and Europe a bit of a disaster. We'll see if they come close to Elon's target of 500,000 cars in 2020.

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342332

Postby BobbyD » September 23rd, 2020, 6:55 pm

Howard wrote:I think the only problem that Tesla has is selling cars. ;)


Not quite

Tesla suffers complete network outage, internal systems and connectivity features down


https://electrek.co/2020/09/23/tesla-su ... ures-down/

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342363

Postby Howard » September 23rd, 2020, 9:09 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Howard wrote:I think the only problem that Tesla has is selling cars. ;)


Not quite

Tesla suffers complete network outage, internal systems and connectivity features down


https://electrek.co/2020/09/23/tesla-su ... ures-down/


No, I think you have got it wrong. You obviously aren't an engineer so wouldn't understand. ;)

Tesla doesn't have bugs in its software, this is actually "Guerilla Marketing" by Elon. 8-)

(See: viewtopic.php?p=340064#p340064)

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342396

Postby BobbyD » September 24th, 2020, 2:42 am

Howard wrote:No, I think you have got it wrong. You obviously aren't an engineer so wouldn't understand. ;)

Tesla doesn't have bugs in its software, this is actually "Guerilla Marketing" by Elon. 8-)


I think you have to ask if it was just coincidence it happened as VW were launching the ID.4?

Tesla employees overwhelming the network as they scramble to get an early reservation...

On the subject of sales, Norway - Month to yesterday - 1. VW ID.3 Pro 1291, 2. Tesla model3 822

Tesla sold 83 model 3's in the other 2 months of the quarter, and the ID.3 is a couple of hundred vehicles behind the EQC for top seller of the quarter despite only having been on sale for 12 days.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342434

Postby odysseus2000 » September 24th, 2020, 9:21 am

I laughed all the way through this, really cheered me up.

It is a bear writing some fabulous non-sense and I have to hope that many more bears are thinking like this:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/437604 ... ent=link-0

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342487

Postby Howard » September 24th, 2020, 12:10 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Howard wrote:No, I think you have got it wrong. You obviously aren't an engineer so wouldn't understand. ;)

Tesla doesn't have bugs in its software, this is actually "Guerilla Marketing" by Elon. 8-)


I think you have to ask if it was just coincidence it happened as VW were launching the ID.4?

Tesla employees overwhelming the network as they scramble to get an early reservation...

On the subject of sales, Norway - Month to yesterday - 1. VW ID.3 Pro 1291, 2. Tesla model3 822

Tesla sold 83 model 3's in the other 2 months of the quarter, and the ID.3 is a couple of hundred vehicles behind the EQC for top seller of the quarter despite only having been on sale for 12 days.


We may joke, but I think we may be witnessing what technologists call disruption.

VW are disrupting the market for a legacy producer of expensive BEVs. If VW’s models are as quiet, reliable and as nice to drive as expected they are showing that Tesla doesn’t have a moat. No longer are Tesla offering significantly longer range models than several more sensibly priced competitors.

Early reactions to the ID.4 suggest that it will be more capable and pleasant to drive than the Model Y. The ID.3 is already moving towards filling the $25,000 mass market slot which Tesla is nowhere near satisfying.

Norway may be an early indicator of this trend. In Q3 The Model 3 has slipped to sixth in the BEV sales chart after BEV models made by Mercedes, VW, Polestar, Hyundai and Audi. Maybe a few more Teslas will arrive by boat in the next week, but the Model 3 is looking a little like yesterday’s car in Norway. And this was such an important market for Tesla only last year. :(

regards

Howard

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342510

Postby BobbyD » September 24th, 2020, 1:06 pm

Howard wrote:
We may joke, but I think we may be witnessing what technologists call disruption.

VW are disrupting the market for a legacy producer of expensive BEVs. If VW’s models are as quiet, reliable and as nice to drive as expected they are showing that Tesla doesn’t have a moat. No longer are Tesla offering significantly longer range models than several more sensibly priced competitors.


Yes, who'd have thought that the mass production of cars might prove to be a useful skill when it came to the niche BEV market expanding out of the hands of boutique manufacturers? Shocking!

The ID.4 looks very good, but you can see why they led with the Enyaq, I think they've under-priced it.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#342698

Postby dspp » September 25th, 2020, 9:56 am

https://xkcd.com/2363/

very good :)

- dspp

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Re: Musk endeavours

#343115

Postby odysseus2000 » September 26th, 2020, 11:36 pm

Some interesting scale showing starship sn8 body flaps and the people who are making it:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/130 ... 33889?s=20

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#343154

Postby odysseus2000 » September 27th, 2020, 10:47 am

If you subscribe to the FT, watch this & then cancel your subscription, it is hillarious:

https://youtu.be/gyMQJs9uy7w

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#343250

Postby Howard » September 27th, 2020, 6:10 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:If you subscribe to the FT, watch this & then cancel your subscription, it is hillarious:

https://youtu.be/gyMQJs9uy7w

Regards,


A brilliant video:

This guy must have been reading this thread! :)

Which of his comments could one disagree with? ;)

Tesla is a small producer of cars and like its competitors it has low margins.

The CEO makes absurd forecasts like robotaxis.

Tesla is a typical car company, same margins, same investment needs, same product cycles. And it needs to update its old models.

It has had an advantage in that it gets more range out of a Panasonic battery than its rivals. But even its most expensive model (around £100k) gets less than 400 miles range in real life. And competitors are closing the gap.

And his comments about Tesla’s rapid decline in market share of the EV markets in Norway and Germany has been reported here fairly often.

As he says, Europe is currently the hottest BEV market in the world and Tesla’s share of it is being taken away by its competitors.

He does also mention problems with service, quality, breakdowns and high insurance rates.

Other than that, he liked driving the £82k model X.

Regards

Howard

PS He didn't mention that sales in China haven't been that impressive yet.

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Re: Musk endeavours

#343274

Postby odysseus2000 » September 27th, 2020, 7:57 pm

Howard wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:If you subscribe to the FT, watch this & then cancel your subscription, it is hillarious:

https://youtu.be/gyMQJs9uy7w

Regards,


A brilliant video:

This guy must have been reading this thread! :)

Which of his comments could one disagree with? ;)

Tesla is a small producer of cars and like its competitors it has low margins.

The CEO makes absurd forecasts like robotaxis.

Tesla is a typical car company, same margins, same investment needs, same product cycles. And it needs to update its old models.

It has had an advantage in that it gets more range out of a Panasonic battery than its rivals. But even its most expensive model (around £100k) gets less than 400 miles range in real life. And competitors are closing the gap.

And his comments about Tesla’s rapid decline in market share of the EV markets in Norway and Germany has been reported here fairly often.

As he says, Europe is currently the hottest BEV market in the world and Tesla’s share of it is being taken away by its competitors.

He does also mention problems with service, quality, breakdowns and high insurance rates.

Other than that, he liked driving the £82k model X.

Regards

Howard

PS He didn't mention that sales in China haven't been that impressive yet.


Ha Ha! you are back to being the infantry, not the generals.

This guy got Tesla completely wrong in that the share price from when he started his research is now many times higher, seemingly assuming that the market was wrong and never considering that he and his approach could be wrong.

He applied a pure valuation model with no growth considerations, that's fine for 12 year old, but not for a reporter.

He describes Apple as being a very expensive company, but in terms of its valuation it is not.

Despite his concerns on valuation he made no comparisons of debt levels which had he done so would have shown him how heavily in debt legacy auto is and that has significant valuation implications that he did not consider.

He went on about how legacy auto was responding, failing to note the effect that this two product stream of ice and bev will have on their business

He failed to discuss the costs to legacy of trying to ramp up bev and the impact this will have on their projections which are based on continued ice demand and their forward earnings.

He failed to consider the impact of battery supply & all the new developments that Tesla have made

He failed to consider the advantages of having purpose built factories rather than trying to adapt legacy lines while at the same time making ice.

He did not do any cash flow arguments on the software sales that Tesla is now generating and whether Tesla really is a car company. He just had a prejudiced that it wasn't. Good for a 12 year old.

He assumed that market share in one market mattered while failing to consider the number of cars being sold and the rate of growth.

I could go on, but the whole video was an indication of a reporter who does not understand that secular change going on, who believes that the legacy auto industry will just go on and on and who makes no checks on whether what he is saying is reality.

For a 12 year old great, for anyone wanting analysis of Tesla and the secular change to BEV from ICE it was worse than useless as it propagates all manner of misconceptions and errors and sets anyone who takes notice of this as being ready to miss opportunity or get creamed trying to short Tesla.

It is a video for the infantry who are there to obey and follow orders, not for the generals who command winning armies.

Regards,

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Re: Musk endeavours

#343372

Postby GoSeigen » September 28th, 2020, 9:30 am

Howard wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:If you subscribe to the FT, watch this & then cancel your subscription, it is hillarious:

https://youtu.be/gyMQJs9uy7w

Regards,


A brilliant video:

Yes good video thanks for the heads up, and FT Alphaville is free BTW, no subscription to cancel.


GS

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Re: Musk endeavours

#343667

Postby Howard » September 29th, 2020, 11:08 am

UK car dealers are having a surprisingly good year. Used car prices are 7% higher than last year.

It may sound counter-intuitive but used Petrol and Diesel cars’ prices have increased while used EVs have dropped.

This is good news for leasing firms as they are able to sell second hand ICE cars for higher prices at the end of contracts. And presumably it is also good news for consumers whose PCP contracts are coming to an end.

Cap Hpi who are the leading car valuation company in the UK (and globally) do suggest that this trend may not continue in 2021 but it does show how consumers are behaving at the current time.

“Cap HPI’s market data has shown that a slight dip in used car values at the start of January and in the 10-days prior to the lockdown announcement on March 23 remain the only downward movements of 2020.

Overall, average values are now over 7% ahead of where they were a year ago.

Earlier this month Auto Trader reported a 19th straight week of used car price rises, with a 7.4% mid-September increase in the average advertised values.

However, sales in the used car retail sector showed signs of “cooling off” in August according to a wider European market report compiled by Indicata – with retail sales down 3.3% year-on-year.

In September petrol and diesel cars have both risen in value, on average, while electric vehicles (EV) and petrol-hybrids have reduced once more, according to Cap HPI.”

https://www.am-online.com/news/market-i ... ys-cap-hpi


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