Musk endeavours

[BobbyD]

That TMC thread continues to grow: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 429/page-6

I placed my order in October 2019.

My price (17kWh roof, 6 powerwalls) went from $110k to $170k. My reservation was placed in October 2019. The design and final price of $110k was agreed and signed in late March of this year, so clearly "increased price as a result of the pandemic" is not accurate, since they knew about that well before we agreed to a price. Tesla filed the permit last week.

Ouch!

[BobbyD]

This guy started a thread last June about why he had decided to spend $134k on a Tesla roof (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 4k.198709/). An obvious enthusiast.

Not quite so enthusiastic now:

Mine went from $130k to 180k, Signed original contract w/deposit 7/5/20. Reconfirmed price Last week! It's been 9 months and just got to the "scheduling Phase" (all permits/designs approved). Now this? system is 22.2Kw w/ 4 powerwalls. so not No but Hell No! Tried contacting my PM... Voice mail full, no return email... typical Tesla support methodology.

Just got a call back from my Tesla PM (Jason). He told me no, this is not a glitch and everyone with a contract is getting a new price/cost. My options where to accept the new price or cancel and get my deposit back. I'm going with option 3... News, AG, and I'll lock into a class action....

- https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 429/page-7

Another incredible post for a different poster:

I’m 9 days out to the start of my new Tesla solar v3 roof. Its been well over a year since the since we got in contract for the 76k 14.3kw 3 battery system. My wife and I have been saving and could be more excited for our shinny new power plant. But that obviously all changed today. The project start date is now been push back a week after and has a 98k price tag! We already rented a house for the contracted week of construction for our family. I honestly don’t even know where to start how disappointed I truly am. My wife and I are meeting with our attorney tomorrow, but I doubt any legal cost out going to offset my damages. This just sucks.

- https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 429/page-7

If this holds up, and TMC has never struck me as a den of rabid-anti-Tesla conspiracy it's going to be one of the great iconic examples of customer 'service'.

[odysseus2000]

The solar roof purchasers signed a contract that allows Tesla to raise prices and if so allows the contract to be broken and deposits returned.

It may not be great business, but there is no compulsion to pay the higher prices. Everyone can cancel.

Regards,

[BobbyD]

The solar roof purchasers signed a contract that allows Tesla to raise prices and if so allows the contract to be broken and deposits returned.

It may not be great business, but there is no compulsion to pay the higher prices. Everyone can cancel.

Regards,

a) it's atrocious business
b) such short notice is unreasonable
c) which contract clause are you relying on to allow Tesla to unilaterally hike the price without changes in design or discovery of defects on site?

[odysseus2000]

BobbyD
c) which contract clause are you relying on to allow Tesla to unilaterally hike the price without changes in design or discovery of defects on site?

The contract allows for the home owner to cancel if the price is raised. i.e. no one is being forced to pay the new price.

Regards,

[BobbyD]

BobbyD
c) which contract clause are you relying on to allow Tesla to unilaterally hike the price without changes in design or discovery of defects on site?

The contract allows for the home owner to cancel if the price is raised. i.e. no one is being forced to pay the new price.

Regards,

What clause are you relying on to allow TESLA to raise the price?

When you sign a contract, unless their is a legitimate break, it isn't sufficient to return the other party to the position they were in before they signed it, you are responsible for putting them in the position which they would have been if you had fulfilled the contract. Loss of bargain in English. You can't just cancel and walk away, especially when the other party has incurred costs related to the contract.

[odysseus2000]

BobbyD
What clause are you relying on to allow TESLA to raise the price?

When you sign a contract, unless their is a legitimate break, it isn't sufficient to return the other party to the position they were in before they signed it, you are responsible for putting them in the position which they would have been if you had fulfilled the contract. Loss of bargain in English. You can't just cancel and walk away, especially when the other party has incurred costs related to the contract.

For the Tesla cases we are mostly discussing US law and the contracts, as I understand them, do include the provision for Tesla to raise prices and if so done to allow the home owner to cancel the agreement. Whether a home owner who has done work to enable the contract to go ahead can claim these costs is unclear to me.

Regards,

[BobbyD]

For the Tesla cases we are mostly discussing US law and the contracts, as I understand them, do include the provision for Tesla to raise prices and if so done to allow the home owner to cancel the agreement. Whether a home owner who has done work to enable the contract to go ahead can claim these costs is unclear to me.

Regards,

They call it something else, but the same principle exists in American law which is afterall a derivative of English law.

The contract allows Tesla to raise the price in the event of specific conditions, I've yet to see a clause which would allow them to raise the price just because.

[murraypaul]

The contract allows Tesla to raise the price in the event of specific conditions, I've yet to see a clause which would allow them to raise the price just because.

The contract allows them to raise the price if on survey they consider the roof complexity is higher than estimated by the homeowner.
That appears to be the clause they are relying on to cover themselves, but seem to be applying the increases so widely that this isn't the real reason.
It seems in reality they dropped their prices to bring in more business and now find that they can't install fast enough, and aren't making enough margin.
The idea seems to be to shed some customers and make the others more profitable.
Apparently they have done the same recently with some car pre-orders.
Telsa contracts all seem to contain a mandatory arbitration clause.
Will they get away with it? Depends on how loud the fuss gets.

When placing an order for Solar Roof, you will be asked to evaluate your roof’s level of complexity based on the above factors to the best of your ability. Once your order is placed, our design team will use remote imagery to confirm your roof’s complexity and system fit in order to complete the design of your Solar Roof. You will be notified if we assign a new level of complexity to your roof and your purchase price will be updated to reflect this after your system design is complete.

[BobbyD]

The contract allows Tesla to raise the price in the event of specific conditions, I've yet to see a clause which would allow them to raise the price just because.

The contract allows them to raise the price if on survey they consider the roof complexity is higher than estimated by the homeowner.
That appears to be the clause they are relying on to cover themselves, but seem to be applying the increases so widely that this isn't the real reason.

Based on the TMC thread they are changing the price on people who have been surveyed, permitted and have materials sat on their driveway! These aren't people who've been given an estimate based on the over-optimistic filling out of an online form who need to be bought gently back to earth, they have a contract stipulating in black and white the work to be done and the money to be paid, in many cases have been waiting for over 6 months for it to be done, and in some cases have a mutually agreed start date which in one case was next week! In fact according to one report of a conversation with a Tesla rep in the TMC thread they are repricing all contracts! It's absolutely incredible.

It seems in reality they dropped their prices to bring in more business and now find that they can't install fast enough, and aren't making enough margin.

Tesla selling dreams they can't make come true? That would be a first...

Apparently they have done the same recently with some car pre-orders.

Car pre-orders are a different matter, a refundable $100 deposit and you get a place in a queue for a car which may or may not ever be produced with a spec which may or may not match that which was promised, in a package you might or might not hate, at a price you might or might not be able to afford at a point when you are still or are not still alive. That's not even close to a contract to have a roof with an integral an x kWh solar setup put on your house, and have Y powerwalks fitted, at a cost of $Z. The equivalent would be agreeing to buy a Model S plaid for $111,000, getting the contract, doing the paperwork on the loan, waiting 7 months for delivery and then being told that it's now going to cost you $190,000 and if you don't like it you can go jump, and furthermore if you don't agree now you are going to the back of the queue again.

[murraypaul]

The equivalent would be agreeing to buy a Model S plaid for $111,000, getting the contract, doing the paperwork on the loan, waiting 7 months for delivery and then being told that it's now going to cost you $190,000 and if you don't like it you can go jump, and furthermore if you don't agree now you are going to the back of the queue again.

People who had back orders for the Telsa S at an agreed price have indeed been told that as Telsa has 'refreshed' the car for the 2021 season they have to pay more for it. Oh, and they can't get their deposit back, or transfer it to a different car.

[odysseus2000]

VW current CEO (Diess) was nearly appointed Tesla CEO in 2015, contracts written, but then didn't happen:

https://youtu.be/cW9LU48JOxA

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Munro explores ID4 charging:

https://youtu.be/ml1ZOIQlEds

Regards,

[Howard]

"Voltswagen" don't seem to have battery supply problems if this article is correct. Ramping up production from 250,000 to 500,000 BEV batteries and another 100,000 for those profitable PHEVs which are proving popular with consumers.

"Volkswagen expands its battery components plant" - Electrek

Despite forecasts on this thread to the contrary, the major German manufacturers seem to be able to source as many batteries as they need. If VW are making their own this means even more available for others.

And Electrek report that GM are building a second massive battery plant in the USA.

regards

Howard

https://electrek.co/2021/04/15/volkswag ... -per-year/

[BobbyD]

"Voltswagen" don't seem to have battery supply problems if this article is correct. Ramping up production from 250,000 to 500,000 BEV batteries and another 100,000 for those profitable PHEVs which are proving popular with consumers.

Expert in supply, logistics and mass production takes out supply contracts, and takes interests in experts in batteries and comes up with big battery pack factory!

It defies all logic. Where's the disruption?

Not sure if I've mentioned the transport infrastructure behind pack production before. Clean, green and efficient:

To deliver the batteries to Zwickau in as environmentally compatible a way as possible, the cell modules are collected from the supplier’s plant in Wroclaw, Poland by rail with DB Cargo and first shipped to the Brunswick plant of Volkswagen Group Components. For rail transport in Germany, 100 percent eco-power is used. At Brunswick, the cells are unloaded fully automatically and assembled to produce battery systems. These are then loaded onto trains fully automatically and shipped to Zwickau by rail. Here too, electric power from renewable sources is used. For the last mile between the loading and unloading station at Harvesse and the factory at Brunswick, the shipment containers are loaded onto electric trucks as the rail system at Brunswick does not yet extend up to the assembly point.

- https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... d-id4-6649

[odysseus2000]

"Voltswagen" don't seem to have battery supply problems if this article is correct. Ramping up production from 250,000 to 500,000 BEV batteries and another 100,000 for those profitable PHEVs which are proving popular with consumers.

Expert in supply, logistics and mass production takes out supply contracts, and takes interests in experts in batteries and comes up with big battery pack factory!

It defies all logic. Where's the disruption?

Not sure if I've mentioned the transport infrastructure behind pack production before. Clean, green and efficient:

To deliver the batteries to Zwickau in as environmentally compatible a way as possible, the cell modules are collected from the supplier’s plant in Wroclaw, Poland by rail with DB Cargo and first shipped to the Brunswick plant of Volkswagen Group Components. For rail transport in Germany, 100 percent eco-power is used. At Brunswick, the cells are unloaded fully automatically and assembled to produce battery systems. These are then loaded onto trains fully automatically and shipped to Zwickau by rail. Here too, electric power from renewable sources is used. For the last mile between the loading and unloading station at Harvesse and the factory at Brunswick, the shipment containers are loaded onto electric trucks as the rail system at Brunswick does not yet extend up to the assembly point.

- https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... d-id4-6649

Had they been doing this 12 years ago, who knows they might have avoided diesel gate and been world leaders rather than the Johnny come lately, try and catch up brigade with a vibrant and much higher share price, but even now the old habits remain and they create new battery platforms that are all about trying to extract margin than make a good product.

Everything points to VW best days being a long way behind them and they are one of the most progressive of the legacy autos, but no amount of PR can cover up the reality of their high debt, legacy run off troubles and underwhelming new BEV.

Regards,

[dealtn]

Everything points to VW best days being a long way behind them and they are one of the most progressive of the legacy autos, but no amount of PR can cover up the reality of their high debt, legacy run off troubles and underwhelming new BEV.

Regards,

"Everything"?

No hint of any confirmation bias in your post at all then?

[BobbyD]

Everything points to VW best days being a long way behind them and they are one of the most progressive of the legacy autos, but no amount of PR can cover up the reality of their high debt, legacy run off troubles and underwhelming new BEV.

Regards,

"Everything"?

No hint of any confirmation bias in your post at all then?

How can you say that? Isn't it obvious from the legacy of running a successful bank which profits from the financial services car buyers need to avail themselves of, dead weight ICE factories like Zwickau. Dresden and Hanover which have been seamlessly converted to BEV production, and a car which has garnered across the board 4 star reviews that they are doomed? Doooomed I tell thee.

[odysseus2000]

BobbyD
How can you say that? Isn't it obvious from the legacy of running a successful bank which profits from the financial services car buyers need to avail themselves of, dead weight ICE factories like Zwickau. Dresden and Hanover which have been seamlessly converted to BEV production, and a car which has garnered across the board 4 star reviews that they are doomed? Doooomed I tell thee.

It has taken a long time, but you are finally going in the right direction.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Munro tries to drive the ID4 as a new users, assuming he picked it up at an airport and was in a hurry to get somewhere.

He did not find the car intuitive and was very disappointed with many of the features. He feels this is a very good car for a taxi driver or some one who wants to make a slow transition from ICE to BEV (video 14 mins 29 seconds):

https://youtu.be/3oC9sUiwyL8

My take is that VW have made a 20th century car and are relying on their reputation to convince folk that it is really a 21st century car. In this aim they have employed a ton of people to write favourable reviews saying how good the car is, whereas it clearly isn't ready as a competitor for any of the Tesla cars, nor the Tesla super charger network, and it is plagued by elephant syndrome (An elephant is a mouse designed by committee.) On top of this are all the issues with over the air update and by the penny pinching use of rear drum brakes which are certain to lead to expensive maintenance during the cars life.

VW have created exactly what I expected: A cheaply made car with mediocre performance, poor ergonomics and nothing that would make me want to buy one. In the process they have reinforced my view that most of the reviews of cars are written for the manufacturer, not the prospective buyer.

Regards,