Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448160

Postby odysseus2000 » October 5th, 2021, 8:25 pm

This is a super interesting video on why JCB believe that hydrogen is the fuel for heavy plant like combines etc (27 minutes):

https://youtu.be/wDKLoLUQgH0

Seeing how much effort JCB have put into this makes me fear for their future.

Why? Lord Bamford makes many points in favour of internal combustion engines (ICE) and hydrogen, but most seem suspect.

He argues that a battery car (he cites a Vauxhall) that costs twice as much in battery electric vehicle (BEV) form than in ICE form. This may have been the case but the there are very many Chinese models that cost far less than an ICE equivalent. The most popular BEV in China is the Wuling Hong Guang Mini EV, part owned by GM and which retails for $4,500:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/chinas-most-p ... er-a-tesla

In the by and by BEV must become far cheaper than ICE engines. The savings over having to produce high tolerance components (pistons, cylinders, fuel pumps etc...) that are needed in ICE engines and not needed in BEV is guaranteed to drive the price of BEV down.

He argues that BEV have gained popularity due to Musk who is loved by politicians whereas in practice President Biden did not invite Musk to the recent summit on BEV.

He argues that hydrogen is a direct replacement for diesel, but it is not. A diesel engine is a compression ignition engine whereas as a hydrogen engine is a spark ignition engine. Anyone who has worked with spark ignition engines in farm setting knows how vulnerable they are to losing the spark due to condensation, debris from farming operations etc.

Lord Bamford argues that hydrogen is clean, but neglects to mention all the losses created in manufacturing hydrogen nor that there is no infrastructure to get hydrogen all over the country which would be needed if hydrogen was a main fuel. In addition has mentioned by Harry, the system the JCB engineers suggest requires an on-site compressor. There have also been advances in

One of the better arguments put forward is that BEV take a long time to charge, that is true in respect to a liquid fuel like diesel or a pressurised fuel, but as batteries advance so to does the charging time and a much simpler solution would be to give farm and construction equipment a waiver from the ban on diesel until such time as BEV become better which seems inevitable.

Lord Bamford also notes how going with hydrogen would safeguard all the engineering jobs and add a continuity with current ICE engines. I can see why this may be an emotional connection but in reality it is all like the stone age. We didn't leave the stone age because we ran out of stone, but because the alternative were better.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448162

Postby odysseus2000 » October 5th, 2021, 8:38 pm

BobbyD
You do love your unsourced reports of the going ons at the top of VW...

Diess believes in confrontation, and he's long campaigned to tighten up VW's operations. To that extent the talking points are quite believable, but if they are as reported they are Diess being Diess, putting a boot up the backside of VW and its unions not a white flag waving ceremony prophesying disaster at the hands of the Chinese. Some of the figures sound off, but then who would argue with News in 24s famous 'Deborah'? No need to get so excited, even if this report is accurate in gist this is what we pay Herr Diess for, fighting the good fight.

Now, how come you are so eager to talk about VW all of a sudden? Presumably a more comfortable topic than the apparent absence of demand for Teslas in China? If you can show how those figures don't indicate that the Chinese market lacks the demand for 300,000 Teslas a year, (or were we not hearing about Shanghai going to 500,000 at one point?) we are all ears.


According to the report of Diess comments:

Tesla make 3 BEV cars in the time it takes VW to make 1.

If that is true then VW, the most advanced legacy BEV maker, is in very serious trouble.

By contrast Tesla have waiting lists for all their models and have no trouble selling them anywhere, their biggest problem is the logistics of selling highly demanded cars in world markets from 2 factories, causing them to have to raise prices to cut off demand and to play a regular game of trying to keep all punters happy by shipping cars all over the world. As things are one can by a model 3, the most advanced car in its class for £46k which is cheaper than many inferior marques. Moreover Tesla has by far the best charging infrastructure so that a Tesla buyer is buying a ultra safe and refined car that is a fully practical proposition, unlike many other marques that have poor infrastructure of charging.

The existing Tesla plants are all increasing production and will soon be joined by two new factories that will greatly ease the logistics problems. At the current run rate from two factories, Tesla are on track to make 1 million cars per year, with the two new ones that is likely to move to 2 million cars per year. Tesla are accelerating production whilst VW are according to the article I have cited seeing demand fall off in China. This is not unexpected as VW are trying to sell old style designs with limited technological advances, suitable as taxis in the west, at a high price compared to Chinese competitors.

As we now know that VW are in trouble we can be certain that the less advanced legacy auto makers are in more trouble and that the world is rapidly consigning legacy auto makers to yesteryear.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448704

Postby odysseus2000 » October 8th, 2021, 11:16 am

Tesla shareholders meeting, starts at 14 mins in:

https://youtu.be/bH51-loeLgM

The first part is all company stuff & then Elon Musk answers questions & gives an over view of various things.

Overall I didn't find anything to be excited about. There are clear supply chain problems as anyone trying to buy things in the uk knows. Last night I was amazed to find that Wickes had no house bricks for sale, but Tesla are managing some of this by air freighting stuff between factories, likely to hurt their margins, but better than no production.

Most of the rest of the stuff should be of no surprise to anyone who follows this board.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448706

Postby odysseus2000 » October 8th, 2021, 11:24 am

Interesting discussion with Munroe on Tesla robots. Munroe has been working on robots for a long time & cites many examples of failures. He does not discuss Amazon robotic factories that seem to be one of the most successful practical uses of robots, but notes many issues with robots including their power consumption & the current lack of appropriate power supplies, noting that for fast action chemically powered robots are used, but unlikely in my humble opinion to be practical for most civilian applications. Worth a watch to get Munroe views:

https://youtu.be/DhX5wVxP1Ew

Regards,

murraypaul
Lemon Slice
Posts: 785
Joined: April 9th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Has thanked: 225 times
Been thanked: 265 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448744

Postby murraypaul » October 8th, 2021, 1:04 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:According to the report of Diess comments:

Tesla make 3 BEV cars in the time it takes VW to make 1.


The actual report comment is that a single car takes three times as long to make.

That isn't the same as saying they can make a third as many cars, it depends on relative production capacity.

If VW had three times the production capacity of Tesla, they would make the same number of cars in the same time.

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448751

Postby odysseus2000 » October 8th, 2021, 1:31 pm

murraypaul wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:According to the report of Diess comments:

Tesla make 3 BEV cars in the time it takes VW to make 1.


The actual report comment is that a single car takes three times as long to make.

That isn't the same as saying they can make a third as many cars, it depends on relative production capacity.

If VW had three times the production capacity of Tesla, they would make the same number of cars in the same time.


Yes, it means that for VW to compete on a car by car basis as things now are, they need all the overheads (lines, workers etc.) of 3x the production capability of Tesla to produce the same number of cars as Tesla does. That is an unsustainable situation. For a VW and Tesla car selling at the same price, VW have 3x the production cost that Tesla has giving Tesla far better margins, and/or the ability for Tesla to lower the price.

Clearly Diess is doing is best to convince the complacent VW board, the unions and the politicians that VW has to modernise or cease to be competitive. Whether these vested interests will pay attention and allow Diess to spend the capital and to significantly reduce head counts to do what he feels is necessary is far from clear.

From an employee perspective the situation in legacy auto is getting ugly, just as we saw when the Japanese took market share from the US big 3. When things get ugly for employees it also tends to get ugly for the board members, unions, politicians and shareholders.

Regards,

TUK020
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2039
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 7:41 am
Has thanked: 762 times
Been thanked: 1175 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448773

Postby TUK020 » October 8th, 2021, 3:37 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
murraypaul wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:According to the report of Diess comments:

Tesla make 3 BEV cars in the time it takes VW to make 1.


The actual report comment is that a single car takes three times as long to make.

That isn't the same as saying they can make a third as many cars, it depends on relative production capacity.

If VW had three times the production capacity of Tesla, they would make the same number of cars in the same time.


Yes, it means that for VW to compete on a car by car basis as things now are, they need all the overheads (lines, workers etc.) of 3x the production capability of Tesla to produce the same number of cars as Tesla does. That is an unsustainable situation. For a VW and Tesla car selling at the same price, VW have 3x the production cost that Tesla has giving Tesla far better margins, and/or the ability for Tesla to lower the price.

Clearly Diess is doing is best to convince the complacent VW board, the unions and the politicians that VW has to modernise or cease to be competitive. Whether these vested interests will pay attention and allow Diess to spend the capital and to significantly reduce head counts to do what he feels is necessary is far from clear.

From an employee perspective the situation in legacy auto is getting ugly, just as we saw when the Japanese took market share from the US big 3. When things get ugly for employees it also tends to get ugly for the board members, unions, politicians and shareholders.

Regards,

Elapsed time to completion of a car is not the same as capacity/throughput/cost per vehicle etc etc.
A single snippet of information on a complex subject, and everyone is inferring different conclusions.....for which there is insufficient information.

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448783

Postby odysseus2000 » October 8th, 2021, 4:37 pm

TUK020
Elapsed time to completion of a car is not the same as capacity/throughput/cost per vehicle etc etc.
A single snippet of information on a complex subject, and everyone is inferring different conclusions.....for which there is insufficient information.


Agreed, but that is how things usually are in investment/trading.

When one knows everything it is too late, the opportunities have gone.

So we all have to make guesses about what it means and then look for things that confirm or negate our guesses and estimates and decide what are red-herrings along the way.

Not so long ago many were all hot and bothered about Tesla and Crypto, but I don't recall any mention of crypto in last nights shareholder meeting.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448795

Postby BobbyD » October 8th, 2021, 6:07 pm

murraypaul wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:According to the report of Diess comments:


Well there's your first problem!

This isn't even Manager magazine whose prediction that the ID.3 would be woefully delayed based on 'anonymous sources inside VW' was endlessly trumpeted by Ody and dspp as a sure sign of VW's imminent demise right up until they delivered the first cars on time...

In this case we have a report of a closed meeting with no explanation of source, by an unknown writer, who appears to be writing in a language which isn't their native tongue in a publication which nobody has ever heard of before who has managed by one means or another to put together a credible list of talking points which anybody with a basic knowledge of VW could have assembled without having attended the meeting.

murraypaul wrote:The actual report comment is that a single car takes three times as long to make.


This is the second problem. Those numbers are very familiar. They are those given for ICE production some years ago.

This person said VW’s combustion-engine cars take between 26 and 32 hours to build, but a vehicle built on the electric chassis needs only 16 hours.

The goal is to reduce this further to just 10 hours within a few years. That would enable VW to launch a low-end electric model as early as 2023, costing just €18,000 — one-third of the €55,000 starting price for a Tesla Model 3 in Germany today.


- https://www.ft.com/content/a2b8cf3a-1e1 ... fc3ad87c65 (Volkswagen’s plan to kill off Tesla site:ft.com)

The meeting was about Wolfsburg, which is scheduled for electrification, eg. to move from a platform which takes around 30 hours a vehicle to one which when fully ramped will be knocking out a car in 10-16 hours.

Meanwhile the last time this was a point of conjecture Ody very helpfully provided a source for the amount of time it takes to produce a Tesla. It was 3 days! Elsewhere on TMC under 2 years ago there's a report of a factory tour being told that it takes 4-5 days to make a Tesla ( https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... -3.179806/ ).

So Ody can post this as many times as he likes, and I hope it makes him very happy, and you can draw your own conclusions, but treating it as anything close to fact is hilarious if a much needed tonic for those not wishing to read that:

Tesla Cybertruck Delayed Till End Of 2022, Semi 2023
- https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/08/te ... hallenges/

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448837

Postby odysseus2000 » October 8th, 2021, 9:22 pm

24.com is a leading African media group:

https://www.zoominfo.com/c/24com-sa/346830915

Whether what they write is based on reality or fiction is, as always, unknowable.

However, cleantechnica re-ran the story, indicating they believed it and didn’t fear VW taken legal action against them to be sufficient to cause them to not publish:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/03/vo ... g-factory/

When one has small numbers of senior executives meeting there will most likely only be leaked information, one is very unlikely to get anything official from such gatherings.

Additionally, the numbers that Diess is reported to have stated do seem to be right, based on what VW expect to achieve with a new factory designed to cut the production time from 30 hours to 10 hours. It is of course uncertain as to how one does this measurement and in Tesla’s case there have been multiple models produced quickly which then had to be stockpiled till unavailable parts became available as was clearly articulated with the Plaid.

BobbyD also notes
Meanwhile the last time this was a point of conjecture Ody very helpfully provided a source for the amount of time it takes to produce a Tesla. It was 3 days! Elsewhere on TMC under 2 years ago there's a report of a factory tour being told that it takes 4-5 days to make a Tesla ( https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... -3.179806/ ).


as thought nothing has changed in 2 years, which makes no sense as Tesla are now slowly moving towards casting several part of the car which should, according to Tesla, save 300 robots needing to be used.

As I have mentioned recently, investment and trading always has to take place with incomplete knowledge, once everything is known there are no opportunities.

Posters and readers here can dismiss or accept things. That is the nature of a discussion board and the working assumption has to be that anyone reading these boards is prepared to make up their own minds as to whether any particular post is believed or not.

Regards,

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8912
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3667 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448875

Postby redsturgeon » October 9th, 2021, 9:15 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
as thought nothing has changed in 2 years, which makes no sense as Tesla are now slowly moving towards casting several part of the car which should, according to Tesla, save 300 robots needing to be used.


Regards,


Unfortunately the more large castings are used the more difficult it becomes to repair often quite minor accident damage.

John

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448898

Postby odysseus2000 » October 9th, 2021, 10:52 am

redsturgeon wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:
as thought nothing has changed in 2 years, which makes no sense as Tesla are now slowly moving towards casting several part of the car which should, according to Tesla, save 300 robots needing to be used.


Regards,


Unfortunately the more large castings are used the more difficult it becomes to repair often quite minor accident damage.

John


Munroe did a video on this. He made the point that the days when insurance companies authorised repairs to damaged cars are already receding into the past. The cost of garage labour that for popular marques like Audi is around £500/hr. The mechanic sees very little of this, but the insurance company has to pay it all. Then comes the cost of parts which on many modern engines includes a lot of plastic that is low cost to manufacture after the tooling is made, but the tooling is expensive and so are the parts. Moreover, most modern cars are made to collapse during collisions which leads to the skeleton of the car deforming even in light collisions and this is yet another expensive disincentive to repair. Insurance industry calculus looks at the cost of repair, the value of the car after repair and more often than not decides that scrapping the vehicle is the most economic way forward.

With casting construction this is sort of calculation is almost certainly going to increase leading to yet larger insurance premiums. However, there is some potential relief in that Chinese BEV are extremely low cost with popular models costing £5k brand new. Whether these will catch on with western consumers I do not know, but for someone who has little money but needs a car they may become popular, assuming they can get past the various crash tests and such that all makers must have their cars subjected to. As far as I understand it, many of the Chinese models will pass the western safety tests, but for now I don't know of any that are being imported in to Europe or the US, but I expect the GM part owned marque to begin imports sometime in the next year. A £5k car that one can charge for very little (no extra cost about 10 months of the year if you have home solar) making it extremely environmentally friendly may become the car of choice for folk who support Insulate Britain and/or have similar environmental concerns.

Given the recent fuel shortages electric must also be more on folks minds as a way to avoid repeats of the ugly fuel scenes at many petrol stations over the last few weeks. This may also favour the low cost Chinese BEV. Tesla are apparently considering advertising their solar and power walls to emphasise the advantages of becoming ones own utility which would also help BEV sales.

The other new factor are the various FSD and similar that are being offered by most manufactures. If these work at all they should reduce accidents.

My current feel is that most folk who have disposable income will want the best available and that means Tesla to some, VW, Audi etc to others etc and that market will not be stolen by the low cost Chinese, but I do think the low cost Chinese cars will take share from the established makers who offer similar sized cars in ICE form for over twice the price.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448899

Postby odysseus2000 » October 9th, 2021, 10:55 am


odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448900

Postby odysseus2000 » October 9th, 2021, 10:57 am

Tesla holding a national career day event:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/08/te ... t-10-9-21/

Regards,

ReformedCharacter
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3120
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:12 am
Has thanked: 3591 times
Been thanked: 1509 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448910

Postby ReformedCharacter » October 9th, 2021, 11:43 am

Why Tesla Solar Hasn’t Worked Out The Way Elon Musk Promised:

It’s been five years since Tesla acquired SolarCity for about $2.6 billion. The deal was immediately controversial with some shareholders suing Elon Musk. But fans looked forward to charging their Tesla electric vehicles on sunshine. CNBC interviewed industry experts and recent Tesla solar customers to see how the company is delivering on its promises today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW7WIvSxB4Q

RC

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#448942

Postby odysseus2000 » October 9th, 2021, 1:49 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:Why Tesla Solar Hasn’t Worked Out The Way Elon Musk Promised:

It’s been five years since Tesla acquired SolarCity for about $2.6 billion. The deal was immediately controversial with some shareholders suing Elon Musk. But fans looked forward to charging their Tesla electric vehicles on sunshine. CNBC interviewed industry experts and recent Tesla solar customers to see how the company is delivering on its promises today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW7WIvSxB4Q

RC


Nice video, thank you for the heads up.

I emphasise with the folks who were getting no where trying to get help.

I have been trying for ages to have one of my utilities to correctly bill me. I went to their web site, logged in and set the units to the right amount, but it would not accept it. I called various times and when I did get through they all said the reading was too low. Finally I got to someone who organised a smart meter and that is in, but although there engineer and a previous one both noted the reading on the old meter the bill they keep sending me is massively over units, over 6,000 too much and they have now taken to letting me get through, then saying I need to speak to someone else and re-setting me to the bottom of the queue. I am finding these attitudes more and more in the UK. Rather than try and fix a problem the company essentially stonewalls you until you give up in some way. It makes no business sense to and seems guaranteed to send you to the lowest price as if things then go wrong one hasn't paid a premium price. I have spoken to other folk who have had issues and in many cases their experience is like mine. A clear problem that can be easily sorted morphing into a bigger one with all kinds of costs and reputation loss for the company.

From a business perspective solar roofing is a very interesting situation. Huge demand and yet an inability to operate efficiently and give punters what they are prepared to pay for. From various conversations with folk in the industry, the best installers seem to be very small companies where there is a clear link between the client and the business, but how that can be scaled is far from clear to me. The solar tile still looks by far the best product to me, although there are some efficiency issues and installations issues, getting power from a roof with out big solar panels has an appeal and surely for new build should be easily do-able although more problematic for an existing build.

Dunno. It is clearly an issue when it should be a very profitable part of Tesla and that is distressing to a share holder.

My guess is that Musk will fix this in someway, probably by finding a Glwynne Shotwell of solar, but it needs doing now.

Regards,

tjh290633
Lemon Half
Posts: 8209
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:20 am
Has thanked: 913 times
Been thanked: 4097 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#449060

Postby tjh290633 » October 10th, 2021, 11:08 am

So now Musk is taking his bat and stumps and moving to Texas.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -lockdown/

Tesla is to quit Silicon Valley and move its headquarters to Texas after chief executive Elon Musk criticised lockdown measures by local leaders as “fascist”.

The electric car company will move from Palo Alto to the Texas capital, Austin, Mr Musk told a meeting of Tesla shareholders, making it the biggest company to quit Silicon Valley for the Lone Star state yet. Tesla is also building a giant “gigafactory” in Austin.

TJH

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#449064

Postby BobbyD » October 10th, 2021, 11:16 am

tjh290633 wrote:So now Musk is taking his bat and stumps and moving to Texas.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -lockdown/

Tesla is to quit Silicon Valley and move its headquarters to Texas after chief executive Elon Musk criticised lockdown measures by local leaders as “fascist”.


Like every child who doesn't appreciate being told when to go to bed...

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2178
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 885 times
Been thanked: 1017 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#449091

Postby Howard » October 10th, 2021, 1:06 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:FSD coming soon:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-full-se ... y-streets/

Regards,


Ody

Are you recycling five year old posts? ;)

regards

Howard

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6366
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1534 times
Been thanked: 959 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#449099

Postby odysseus2000 » October 10th, 2021, 1:38 pm

tjh290633 wrote:So now Musk is taking his bat and stumps and moving to Texas.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -lockdown/

Tesla is to quit Silicon Valley and move its headquarters to Texas after chief executive Elon Musk criticised lockdown measures by local leaders as “fascist”.

The electric car company will move from Palo Alto to the Texas capital, Austin, Mr Musk told a meeting of Tesla shareholders, making it the biggest company to quit Silicon Valley for the Lone Star state yet. Tesla is also building a giant “gigafactory” in Austin.

TJH


The Telegraph hasn't done the research.

Yes, Tesla are moving the head quarters to Austin which is more convenient for SpaceX, but otherwise Tesla are expanding in California and it currently does not seem that Tesla will close Fremont in the foreseeable future.

Regards,


Return to “Macro and Global Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests