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Investing in gold

Any other investment discussions eg. peer to peer lending
1nvest
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Investing in gold

#698411

Postby 1nvest » December 3rd, 2024, 7:38 pm

Moderator Message:
Split off from an income strategy board where it was wholly off-topic. - Chris

67/33 FCIT/Gold for all start months since April 1968 was superior to just FCIT alone for supporting a 4.5% 30 year SWR (inflation adjusted income drawn at the start of each month). 100% success rate and where in the median case you ended the 30 years with 2.8 times more final inflation adjusted portfolio value than at the start.

For a 4% rate you pretty much ended up with wealth preserved

Image

As has a November 2000 start date (incomplete) run still has a little more of its inflation adjusted start date value still available as of recent.

A third in gold can be tax efficient given that Sovereigns/Britannia's are CGT exempt. Another third might be in a General (taxable) account, the final third in a ISA, and only trade in a manner where you 'profit take' from the ISA holdings. It's easier to 'tax harvest' between General and ISA accounts than it is to have 15 separate holdings.

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Re: Investing in gold

#698426

Postby 1nvest » December 3rd, 2024, 8:10 pm

Moderator Message:
Links back to this post. - Chris

Lootman wrote:
Alaric wrote:Why though? Is it because pyad said so? As pointed out by lootman and others, wealth is wealth regardless of how it arises.

Those familar with bond investing will be aware of the concept of "junk bonds". These are where the coupon being paid and thus the redemption yield is high because of a perceived risk of default. High yield shares have some of the same characteristics. Its risk v reward. Higher risk can mean higher reward.

Specialists in junk bond and higher risk fixed interest investing look very carefully at the terms and security underpinning such issues. It's not unknown for them to be mispriced.

Indeed, and also Invest's focus on a safe withdrawal rate makes more sense than just trying to live off whatever dividends get thrown your way which, as HYP1 shows, can vary hugely.

Anyone living off HYP1 would have had to sell some shares in the bad years to maintain income. And at least FCIT, SPY, BRK and QQQ would have provided the capital growth to sustain that, as I showed upthread.

I suspect that if you hold FCIT that also includes BRK and QQQ/SPY stocks, along with subset HYP and a basket of Investment Trusts ... oh and some private equity ...etc. For sure one of those subsets will be the best over a particular time period, as will another be the worst. The middle road average tends to be OK, good enough.

Stocks are however leveraged, many issue corporate bonds (borrow), similar to how a leveraged ETF borrow to scale up stock exposure. Leverage doesn't add to rewards, it just scales up volatility. Analyse a 3x leveraged stock ETF and broadly its yearly average values are around twice the non leveraged, whilst standard deviation is three-times ... that compounds to a similar annualised rate of return as the 1x (non leverage). So deleveraging stocks is reasonable, and with broad 0.5 times book value amounts of corporate bonds = 1.5 leverage factor, so 67/33 stock/bonds is a reasonable choice. But then you're in effect possibly buying the bonds that the stocks have issued, unproductive use of capital. Better to hold gold instead as then you're in effect long stock, short bonds, long gold, rather than long stock, short bonds, long bonds. Gold being a non-fiat commodity currency is a good counterbalanced for fiat currency invested in stocks. If 67 stock value halves to 33 then whatever drove that might see 33 gold value double to 66. No loss, just a transition from 67/33 to 33/67 that periodic rebalancing corrects. Helps to reduce the volatility, and the same reward expectancy but with lower volatility = higher compounded rewards (better Sharpe Ratio, better risk adjusted reward).

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Re: Investing in gold

#698459

Postby 1nvest » December 4th, 2024, 12:03 am

Incomplete runs up to start dates of March 2005 start months (still not reached 30 years of 4% SWR)

Image

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Re: Investing in gold

#698463

Postby 1nvest » December 4th, 2024, 1:09 am

FCIT (with near 0.6% expense ratio and 0.5% stamp), or 50/50 VMIG/XSPX (FT250/S&P500 ETF's)

Image

Combined 67/33 with gold ... thirds each VMIG, XSPX, SGLN (or VMID outside of ISA (pays dividends out), or i500 (from iShares). Both XSPX and i500 are swap based, where US law permits total returns to be paid without deduction of US dividend withholding taxes.

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Re: Investing in gold

#698485

Postby 1nvest » December 4th, 2024, 8:58 am

77ss wrote:An interesting thread, with some good hard data. I have no wish to get involved in any sort of HYP/IT debate, but I would not wish the casual reader to come away with the impression that FCIT is a duffer.

I have held FCIT for over 30 years. Initially in a pension scheme with FCIT which I then transferred into a SIPP in 2015.

Over time FCIT (FRC) has transitioned from a bond portfolio to progressively holding more stocks, something like from the 1920's adding a low weighting to stocks to becoming predominately a stock portfolio from the 1960's. From the 1960's through the 1980's it was more volatile and more rewarding, years of big up's and down's. Since the 1990's its become more of a general/conventional global stock set, that might be approximated with something like a 50/50 FTSE250 (VMIG) and US S&P500 (XSPX) combination. Combining that with gold (SGLN) and a target 33.3% each three way equal split where each of the holdings auto accumulate any dividends facilitates DIY dividends. i.e. spend using credit cards and each month pay off that bill by selling some of VMIG, XSPX or SGLN - whichever had the higher value at that time.

Not quite aligned, FT250/S&P500/Gold thirds calendar years total returns 2001 to 2023 inclusive 9.6% annualised, HYP1 accumulation total return 7.5% annualised for November years.

Image
Trend lines slopes (log linear regressions) 10.5% vs 7.9%. HYP the more volatile, lower 0.944 R² compared to 0.985 for FT250/S&P500/gold

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Re: Investing in gold

#698660

Postby 1nvest » December 4th, 2024, 6:52 pm

Lootman wrote:Any strategy can look good in terms of a poorly performing benchmark.

As can selective time periods infer relatively better or worse
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If you assume two assets/portfolios might yield similar broad total returns then the next measures might be other factors, such as how well or not liabilities (spending) is matched, or the degree of discomfort (drawdowns) that might induce capitulation at the worst possible times etc. Along with the costs/tax efficiencies.

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Re: Investing in gold

#700496

Postby 1nvest » December 14th, 2024, 5:47 pm

Thirds each UK midcap, US midcap, gold vs HYP1 total returns

Image

Suggest : VMIG/SPX4/SGLN ETF's

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Re: Investing in gold

#700531

Postby scotview » December 14th, 2024, 10:08 pm

1nvest wrote:Thirds each UK midcap, US midcap, gold vs HYP1 total returns



I personally think that the silver price is grossly manipulated, gold slightly less so, do you concur ?

Thanks.

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Re: Investing in gold

#700598

Postby 1nvest » December 15th, 2024, 11:33 am

scotview wrote:
1nvest wrote:Thirds each UK midcap, US midcap, gold vs HYP1 total returns



I personally think that the silver price is grossly manipulated, gold slightly less so, do you concur ?

Thanks.

At a macro level and in a manner that gives it utility and as such makes it a appropriate asset to invest in, but not solely.

No different to stocks (others).

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Re: Investing in gold

#700620

Postby 1nvest » December 15th, 2024, 1:01 pm

The UK was dominant in the 19th (and earlier) century, Pound (gold Sovereigns etc.) used as the primary international trade settlement currency/system, which had knock on benefits such London being the dominant place to manage law, accounting, finance. That was destroyed, literally blown away, by WW1, Subsequently the US (US Dollar) has risen to take over that role.

Primary to being and remaining dominant is to have a massive military might, and are able to fend off financial system attacks such as what George Soros performed upon the UK in late 1992.

Some back of napkin figures
1 ton = 29167 troy ounces
The US Treasury (supposedly) has 8000 tons of gold that it compulsory purchased in 1933 locked away in the likes of Fort Knox and elsewhere. The UK (remnants from when it was the primary central law/accounting/finance hub) has 400,000 gold bars of mostly other countries gold (average 400 toz/bar). The US/UK 'special relations' is a combo that is the backbone of the US dollars dominance (primary international trade currency).

Originally the US Fed printed dollars to buy up (compulsory purchase) US gold, since then that gold was transferred over to the US Treasury in exchange for non redeemable gold certificates at $42.42/oz, the Fed became the Custodian for the US Treasury's gold, where it had the power to use the gold in support of the dollar.

In London you could buy 1000 tons of gold today (more strictly ... during business hours) that's cash settled, banks/market maker would just magic a gold contract out of thin air where the parties agreed to settle the Options/Future expiry amount/difference in cash. Recently the ratio is around 132 to 1 paper gold to physical gold (a ratio value/amount that zigzags around over time) https://usdebtclock.org/gold-precious-metals.html

Sum up that the Fed has recent gold price / 42.42 per ounce leverage, and that the market recently has 132 times more paper gold than physical gold leverage factor ... and I make that around a 10 quadrillion US dollars potential value. More than enough to cover the cost/price of global land, businesses, bonds, cash, stocks ...etc. And more than enough for the Fed to fend off George Soros style attacks. The dollar is in effect still backed by gold and somewhat aligned to the price of gold, but in a more dynamic/variable manner. Even under the British gold standard the fixed price of gold peg had to be revised at times, under the US that variability is more dynamic - glide paths rather than distinct large periodic steps. Rather than the Dollar being fixed to gold, the price of gold is adjusted into alignment with the Dollar. So yes manipulated, but in a manner that supports/sustains the system, without which would be inclined to lead to financial collapse/disorder.

As individual investors holding some of both fiat currency (US dollars) and non-fiat commodity currency (gold) is a reasonable choice. Both will wax and wane over time and a combo of the two has a smoother middle road average rather than the more extremes that either alone may transition through at times. 50/50 US Dollars/Gold for British investors pretty much wiped out broad historic UK inflation. 50/50 in gold and US dollars invested in US stocks and that negated the US debt expansion rate (i.e. under fiat, money = debt), where that debt has risen at around a 8% or 9%/year annualised rate. In effect 50/50 US stocks/gold transitions money from being debt (that the Fed can just print out of thin air) to being tangible assets based (businesses/gold physical elements).

Inflation had tended to rise slower than debt expansion. Money as debt + interest (fiat created out of thin air, destroyed once the debt + interest has been repaid) has risen faster/more than CPI as CPI is slowed by productivity, such as a single farmer in a machine doing the former work of many farm workers harvesting crops manually.

Only those that don't understand the basics of 'the system' tend to claim it as being "manipulated", those that do appreciate/understand the fundamentals apply that to their benefit. Gold is (broadly) better than bonds (Gilts/Treasurys), as Treasurys are just debt (borrowing by the state) when it has no real need to borrow as it can just print/spend. Why would you borrow if you had a (legal) money printing press at home?

How much gold is reasonable/appropriate? Well stocks are broadly 1.5x leveraged instruments, many stocks also issue corporate bonds, to around 50% of book value (1.5x leverage factor). Leverage only (again all broadly speaking) doesn't scale up rewards, it just scales up volatility. Take the longer term yearly measures of a 3x stock fund and you'll measure something like that having 3 times the volatility (standard deviation) in yearly average gains, twice the yearly average value, that compounds to a similar annualised rate of return as the non-leveraged. Maybe something of the order of 1x having a 11% yearly average with a 18% standard deviation that compounds to a 9.5% CAGR (actual annualised investment reward), compared to twice the yearly average (22%) with three times the volatility (54% stdev) that compounds to a 9.4% annualised (actual reward). Higher volatility also means more extremes in the likes of 30 year SWR measures, higher best cases, worst lower cases. Generally its better to deleverage leveraged positions, a third in 3x, or in the case of stocks 67/33 instead of 100% stock.

Rather than buying stock, along with some bonds, that has overall exposure of stocks that issue bonds and where you in effect also buy those bonds, 67/33 stock/gold in effect is long stock, short bonds, long gold. Bonds have a broad 0% real expectancy (the state can print/spend so has no need to borrow, which is further reflected in HMRC not bothering to collect capital gains taxes on Gilts as that's zero sum and collecting taxes would be a overall negative (cost)).

Comparing 67/33 stock/gold (US data) to just stocks alone https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... Tvkow2jOKy and since 1972 both have yielded a 10.9% annualised rate of return, but where the 67/33 did so in a more consistent manner, less volatility, which also reflects into the likes of less 30 year SWR measures (better worst case SWR).

What about rebalancing? Well again broadly it makes no difference (but does tend to be different according to which start/end dates you actually measure across). 50/50 initial non rebalanced might end up with 80/20 in the best/worst performing assets, similar to if you'd time averaged 65/35 in the best/worst. 50/50 yearly rebalanced might achieve the same rewards, but where it maintained more constant 50/50 weightings.

The critical point in time for many investors is not during the accumulation phase, average into stocks over many years, nor in later retirement years (time averaging out) when a former 'large enough to retire' portfolio value may have supported spending as well as grown in real terms, rather its the earlier years of transitioning from accumulation into retirement. A bad sequence of returns in early retirement, portfolio value declines when you're also drawing income, can be destructive, erode base capital value down to critically low (unsustainable) levels. If at the point of transition into retirement you opened a low cost brokerage account such as iWeb, loaded half into something like FCIT (global stock fund), half into gold, and thereafter just spent each month using credit cards and sold off some of either FCIT or gold, whichever was the higher value of the two at the time to pay off the credit card bills, then that is enough rebalancing in itself. Just left as-is and more often after 20, 30, whatever years time likely the stock value will have risen to dominate the portfolio, may even be up at 90% weighting, so as though you'd time averaged 70/30 stock/gold. But where if a bad sequence of returns risk did present in earlier years then the gold 'hedge' element would kick in, have you more likely spending gold in earlier retirement years, leaving stocks that had declined as-is and accumulating, until such times that stocks might later recover/rebound to take over supporting retirement income/withdrawals.

My general advice would be to accumulate equities in early/younger years, start by buying a house using a mortgage (leverage). Later add stocks to that - a broad set such as a major index or global stock fund. At retirement turn defensive (stock/gold) in earlier retirement years, with a simple enough portfolio that heirs/partners could easily manage if/when you die. Strive to keep costs and taxes low.

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Re: Investing in gold

#700634

Postby ursaminortaur » December 15th, 2024, 3:04 pm

1nvest wrote:The UK was dominant in the 19th (and earlier) century, Pound (gold Sovereigns etc.) used as the primary international trade settlement currency/system, which had knock on benefits such London being the dominant place to manage law, accounting, finance. That was destroyed, literally blown away, by WW1, Subsequently the US (US Dollar) has risen to take over that role.


Great Britain was officially on a silver standard until 1816 and the switch to a gold standard was caused by a mistake in 1717 which overvalued gold relative to silver compared to other European countries and led to silver flowing out of the country and gold flowing in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_standard

In 1158, King Henry II introduced Tealby penny. English currency was almost exclusively silver until 1344, when the gold noble was put into circulation. However, silver remained the legal basis for sterling until 1816.

In 1663, a new gold coinage was introduced based on the 22 carat fine guinea. Fixed in weight at 44+1⁄2 to the troy pound from 1670, this coin's value varied considerably until 1717, when it was fixed at 21 shillings (21/-, £1/1/-). However, this valuation overvalued gold relative to silver compared to other European countries. British merchants sent silver abroad in payments while exports were paid for with gold. As a consequence, silver flowed out of the country and gold flowed in, leading to a situation where Great Britain was effectively on a gold standard. In 1816, the gold standard was adopted officially, with the silver standard reduced to 66 shillings (66/-, £3/6/-), rendering silver coins a "token" issue (i.e., not containing their value in precious metal).

The economic power of Great Britain was such that its adoption of a gold standard put pressure on other countries to follow suit.

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Re: Investing in gold

#700647

Postby 1nvest » December 15th, 2024, 5:03 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
1nvest wrote:The UK was dominant in the 19th (and earlier) century, Pound (gold Sovereigns etc.) used as the primary international trade settlement currency/system, which had knock on benefits such London being the dominant place to manage law, accounting, finance. That was destroyed, literally blown away, by WW1, Subsequently the US (US Dollar) has risen to take over that role.


Great Britain was officially on a silver standard until 1816 and the switch to a gold standard was caused by a mistake in 1717 which overvalued gold relative to silver compared to other European countries and led to silver flowing out of the country and gold flowing in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_standard

In 1158, King Henry II introduced Tealby penny. English currency was almost exclusively silver until 1344, when the gold noble was put into circulation. However, silver remained the legal basis for sterling until 1816.

In 1663, a new gold coinage was introduced based on the 22 carat fine guinea. Fixed in weight at 44+1⁄2 to the troy pound from 1670, this coin's value varied considerably until 1717, when it was fixed at 21 shillings (21/-, £1/1/-). However, this valuation overvalued gold relative to silver compared to other European countries. British merchants sent silver abroad in payments while exports were paid for with gold. As a consequence, silver flowed out of the country and gold flowed in, leading to a situation where Great Britain was effectively on a gold standard. In 1816, the gold standard was adopted officially, with the silver standard reduced to 66 shillings (66/-, £3/6/-), rendering silver coins a "token" issue (i.e., not containing their value in precious metal).

The economic power of Great Britain was such that its adoption of a gold standard put pressure on other countries to follow suit.

A Pound dates back to the 700's, Saxon pound weight of silver value. The troy ounce was the weight of 24 grains of cereal (troy pound being 12 troy ounces). 12 being a favoured base system for its divisibility (1x12, 2x6, 3x4, 4x3, 6x2 equal splits), hence a dozen eggs, 12 copper pennies per silver shilling etc.

Isaac Newton - the apple on head discovery of gravity guy, was Warden and then Master of the Mint (similar to Chancellor of the Exchequer) 1696-1727 during which the Pound/Gold became more fixed/pegged. The gold Sovereign pound value coin weight of near 0.25% of a ounce is reflective of the Pound value being 4.25/ounce for decades https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/gold/result.php (1 / 4.25 = 0.235 ounces of gold, a Sovereign coins contains 0.2354 troy ounces of pure gold).

Gold, Silver, Copper have been common currencies - metals worth their weight. Those with surplus money (gold, silver, copper) could deposit/lend that in return for interest and where metals worth their weight were money in being finite inflation was broadly very low/zero. Lending gold/silver (money) was inclined to generate a real (inflation beating) reward. The state/crown had to pay real rewards in order to borrow, that all ended with the transition to fiat where when the state has a money printing press it has no real need to borrow (and where lending to the state after costs/taxes might broadly be anticipated to yield 0% real). During the 19th century generally stocks and bonds yielded similar annualised rewards, but where stocks were the more volatile.

Distinct differences between metal standard and fiat. In metallic standard days investing surplus capital was easy, lend for decent real rewards. Under fiat investing is far more complex/riskier.

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Re: Investing in gold

#702995

Postby LooseCannon101 » December 31st, 2024, 12:12 pm

I will never invest in gold. I admit it will always keep it's value as compared to major currencies and inflation, but growth potential is non-existent. There are also storage costs and security concerns.

I don't normally come to the 'Other Investing' board, but due to mention of F&C Investment Trust (FCIT) - my only equity holding, I thought I would comment.

FCIT has been going since 1868 providing a diversified portfolio for the 'common' man (or woman).

About the time, 2014, that the current fund manager, Paul Niven, took over from Jeremy Tigue, the portfolio changed from a UK bias to a more US bias. Today, it roughly holds the same proportions of listed equities as a world equity index fund.

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Re: Investing in gold

#702996

Postby Urbandreamer » December 31st, 2024, 12:29 pm

LooseCannon101 wrote:About the time, 2014, that the current fund manager, Paul Niven, took over from Jeremy Tigue, the portfolio changed from a UK bias to a more US bias. Today, it roughly holds the same proportions of listed equities as a world equity index fund.


If true*, is it doing it's job? I hold it too, but also hold a world equity index. Each for different reasons.

I hold other things, including a gold ETF, for yet other reasons.

You say that FCIT is your only equity holding, what else do you "invest" in then? Gilts and bonds offer no real growth, simply returning a rental upon the money.

*I'm assuming your claim is simply as stated and not proportions measured by countries but with the constituents chosen for reason other than market cap.

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Re: Investing in gold

#703109

Postby LooseCannon101 » December 31st, 2024, 7:58 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
LooseCannon101 wrote:About the time, 2014, that the current fund manager, Paul Niven, took over from Jeremy Tigue, the portfolio changed from a UK bias to a more US bias. Today, it roughly holds the same proportions of listed equities as a world equity index fund.


If true*, is it doing it's job? I hold it too, but also hold a world equity index. Each for different reasons.

I hold other things, including a gold ETF, for yet other reasons.

You say that FCIT is your only equity holding, what else do you "invest" in then? Gilts and bonds offer no real growth, simply returning a rental upon the money.

*I'm assuming your claim is simply as stated and not proportions measured by countries but with the constituents chosen for reason other than market cap.

You ask what else I own other than FCIT. Well, that is easy - 1% cash in savings/bank accounts, with the remaining 99% in FCIT (ISA and GIA). The latter is worth considerably more than my home.
When comparing FCIT to a world equity index fund, I was referring to the relative proportions invested in each country e.g. 60% US, 10% UK, 10% JP, etc.
I see gold as an inflation-proof currency. In the short term, like most assets that do not deliver an income, it is highly speculative.

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Re: Investing in gold

#703584

Postby 1nvest » January 3rd, 2025, 12:10 pm

LooseCannon101 wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:
If true*, is it doing it's job? I hold it too, but also hold a world equity index. Each for different reasons.

I hold other things, including a gold ETF, for yet other reasons.

You say that FCIT is your only equity holding, what else do you "invest" in then? Gilts and bonds offer no real growth, simply returning a rental upon the money.

*I'm assuming your claim is simply as stated and not proportions measured by countries but with the constituents chosen for reason other than market cap.

You ask what else I own other than FCIT. Well, that is easy - 1% cash in savings/bank accounts, with the remaining 99% in FCIT (ISA and GIA). The latter is worth considerably more than my home.
When comparing FCIT to a world equity index fund, I was referring to the relative proportions invested in each country e.g. 60% US, 10% UK, 10% JP, etc.
I see gold as an inflation-proof currency. In the short term, like most assets that do not deliver an income, it is highly speculative.

Some who opine they are investors may very well be speculators. Others who speculate may do so in a manner that might be more fittingly described as being investing. You might speculate that whatever might drive 67 stock value to halve to 33 might also drive 33 gold value to double to 67 and where subsequent rebalancing back to 67/33 stock/gold has you sitting the same as before, no capital loss (just holding twice as many stock shares as before). Historically there has been a significant multi year inverse correlation between stocks and gold, stocks had a bad 1970's, gold did well; Stocks did well during the 1980's and 1990's, gold was bad; 2000's and stocks faltered, gold did well ....etc.

Image

As a 'speculative' hedge gold served better than bonds. Whilst bonds may exhibit shorter term inverse correlations with stocks, mid term the two are inclined to correlate.

Broadly some gold added to a otherwise all-stock position has been inclined to yield better risk-adjusted rewards. For such reason some might consider gold as a investment (albeit not in isolation but as part of a portfolio). It doesn't deliver any income, but might broadly offset inflation (albeit in a very volatile/variable manner). Bonds/cash-deposits might do similar, but have to be lent to someone else and be (generally) subject to costs/taxes as part of that (i.e. bank deposits/buying stocks/bonds nowadays is you lending your money to someone else, becomes part of a banks cash pot, or where your broker buys the shares you like - in their name (or more strictly their 'independent/ring-fenced' custodian does - but where in the case of ii for instance both the broker and custodian sit under the same umbrella corporation).

Some claim that gold is expensive to buy/hold, but there are means to self-insure and trade with 0% spreads. Individuals who trade are often happy for both the buyer and seller to accept a spot+1% type price for legal tender coins that incur no capital gains tax, and self insure by storing/hiding that gold directly themselves, which is relatively easy to do given that a house brick type size block of gold (standard London Delivery 400oz gold bar) recently has a value of over £800,000. Not many are in that category, most are inclined to hold coins/fewer ounces, that can be even more easily hidden.

Holding some of your wealth in-hand, physical/portable is also a form of extreme event diversification. In rare instances those with such easily portable value has been a means to get their family through through gates and onto the last plane/boat where otherwise their family would have been stranded. Whilst very rare having over a lifetime ??? Some might consider not having such insurance to be an extreme speculation with potentially the worst of possible (loss of life) outcomes.


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