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Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

Any other investment discussions eg. peer to peer lending

odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#361890

Postby odysseus2000 » December 1st, 2020, 5:40 pm



Impossible to know if this is a natural consequence of the vast debt being raised or some kind of trap that the authorities will at some point close.

The ability to have wealth in something with a finite and fixed size, unlike fiat currency, has a huge number of attractions in these troubled times and takes each investor further from the reach of the authorities.

I have no idea if the authorities have the power to take down bit coin and that uncertainty is imho the biggest worry with bitcoin.

Regards,

johnhemming
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#361905

Postby johnhemming » December 1st, 2020, 6:57 pm

I prefer tulips. Not that I have any.

WrongLicence388
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#361909

Postby WrongLicence388 » December 1st, 2020, 7:19 pm

For a bit of fun I have I have played around with 'Coin' for about 10 months now.

I put in £100 in January have essentially have kept switching between a coin called Tezoz (which also offers staking rewards) which fairly often follows the Bitcoin price and a much more stable coin called Dai.

Up to about £130 now. This 'success' is based on absolutely no knowledge really, just essentially day trading on luck.

Incredible really to see Bitcoin at it's current value, up 146% in the last 12 months and up 32.8% in the last month.

C.

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#361979

Postby Urbandreamer » December 2nd, 2020, 6:50 am

I haven't got any Bitcoin.

However I'm not too surprised at it's high valuation.

If you consider it a bubble then my reasons won't count. If you reject it as a fraud or regard the fact that it's a fiat currency a problem you'll reject them too.

Here they are.

1) Bitcoin has a limited supply. Hence if it becomes more popular or more widely used the price has to go up. It's simply supply and demand.
2) Bitcoin is becoming more accepted. A large recent event is that paypal now accepts it in the US.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-5 ... 0it%20said.

JohnB
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362014

Postby JohnB » December 2nd, 2020, 9:02 am

Did you know each single bitcoin transaction uses 670kWh of electricity, and generates 318kg of CO2 and 89g of electronic waste, because of the mining process. By comparison a single VISA transaction produces 0.45g of CO2.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362024

Postby odysseus2000 » December 2nd, 2020, 9:32 am

JohnB wrote:Did you know each single bitcoin transaction uses 670kWh of electricity, and generates 318kg of CO2 and 89g of electronic waste, because of the mining process. By comparison a single VISA transaction produces 0.45g of CO2.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption


The energy consumption is discussed on Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#E ... onsumption

At the end of 2017, the global bitcoin mining activity was estimated to consume between one and four gigawatts of electricity.[223] By 2018, bitcoin was estimated by Joule[224] to use 2.55 GW, while Environmental Science & Technology[225] estimated bitcoin to consume 3.572 GW (31.29 TWh for the year). In July 2019 BBC reported bitcoin consumes about 7 gigawatts, 0.2% of the global total, or equivalent to that of Switzerland.[226]



Regards,

OldPlodder

Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362036

Postby OldPlodder » December 2nd, 2020, 9:56 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
JohnB wrote:Did you know each single bitcoin transaction uses 670kWh of electricity, and generates 318kg of CO2 and 89g of electronic waste, because of the mining process. By comparison a single VISA transaction produces 0.45g of CO2.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption


The energy consumption is discussed on Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#E ... onsumption

At the end of 2017, the global bitcoin mining activity was estimated to consume between one and four gigawatts of electricity.[223] By 2018, bitcoin was estimated by Joule[224] to use 2.55 GW, while Environmental Science & Technology[225] estimated bitcoin to consume 3.572 GW (31.29 TWh for the year). In July 2019 BBC reported bitcoin consumes about 7 gigawatts, 0.2% of the global total, or equivalent to that of Switzerland.[226]



Regards,


I don't know anything about Crypto Currencies, or Bitcoin, and certainly won't invest. My gut feeling is that it is an elaborate Ponzi scheme, but what do I know.

But, if the energy consumption figures above are anywhere in the ballpark, and I assume other Crypto consume heavily too (for transactions chains if nothing else and/or mining, as I said, I am not at all knowledgeable in the subject) then the whole shebang ought to be closed up worldwide, and pronto, because that is an OBSCENE amount of energy wasted considering what the whole world needs to achieve on the global warming front. Normal, non Crypto, trading banking transactions consume a relatively tiny reaction of this, considering the comparative volumes involved.

Plodder

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362038

Postby JohnB » December 2nd, 2020, 10:06 am

Etherium uses a 'mere' 31kWh per transaction. https://digiconomist.net/ethereum-energy-consumption

They are so costly because they run on a 'proof of work' system. They could switch to 'proof of stake' where the computational requirement, and hence energy consumption is trivial, but choose not to. Cryptocurrencies are not evil per se, just the way these particular ones are set up.

odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362045

Postby odysseus2000 » December 2nd, 2020, 10:19 am

I don't know anything about Crypto Currencies, or Bitcoin, and certainly won't invest. My gut feeling is that it is an elaborate Ponzi scheme, but what do I know.

But, if the energy consumption figures above are anywhere in the ballpark, and I assume other Crypto consume heavily too (for transactions chains if nothing else and/or mining, as I said, I am not at all knowledgeable in the subject) then the whole shebang ought to be closed up worldwide, and pronto, because that is an OBSCENE amount of energy wasted considering what the whole world needs to achieve on the global warming front. Normal, non Crypto, trading banking transactions consume a relatively tiny reaction of this, considering the comparative volumes involved.

Plodder


A lot of the mining has moved to areas rich in renewable and low cost power like Iceland.

I believe if you look at the energy consumption of the financial sector you will find it is far from trivial, or if you look at the amount of power consumed by chargers plugged in all the time and a host of other things you will find they too consume a lot of power.

The trend in computer power consumption is down as indicated by the recent Apple M1 RISC chips that are dramatically lower power than the x86 architecture they replace.

There are some legitimate concerns about crypto currencies but the power consumed in mining them should not imho be a consideration.

Regards,

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362091

Postby anon155742 » December 2nd, 2020, 11:30 am

JohnB wrote:Did you know each single bitcoin transaction uses 670kWh of electricity, and generates 318kg of CO2 and 89g of electronic waste, because of the mining process. By comparison a single VISA transaction produces 0.45g of CO2.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption


The mining process is the complete system that provides clearance for every single coin transaction.

An equivalent comparison for VISA would have to take into account the energy costs of running all banks that are part of the VISA network (possible all worldwide?), credit card companies, payment processing companies (Elavon, Sagepay, Worldpay etc), card terminal manufacturers etc

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362121

Postby PeterGray » December 2nd, 2020, 12:12 pm

There are some legitimate concerns about crypto currencies but the power consumed in mining them should not imho be a consideration.

Of course it should be. It may be the case that full examination shows that the costs are not as great as suggested, but of course they need to be considered.

I can see there is value in blockchain technology, which can be used for a variety of purposes. But it's hard to escape the conclusion that bitcoin is little more than a Ponzi scheme - the profits made depend on earlier investors getting returns from later ones. The vast energy use is required for mining, and the difficulties of that are essential to create something that is of limited supply, even though it has no inherent value. Gold is similar though it does have the advantage of also having some intrinsic value (even if much less than its monetary value). Even tulips bulb have some intrinsic value.

The only obvious area where the use of bitcoin has real value (other than bubble investing) is for those who want to be able to make hidden financial transactions - drug dealers and other illegal uses, in reality. Hardly a ringing argument for it.

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362124

Postby Lootman » December 2nd, 2020, 12:16 pm

PeterGray wrote:The only obvious area where the use of bitcoin has real value (other than bubble investing) is for those who want to be able to make hidden financial transactions - drug dealers and other illegal uses, in reality. Hardly a ringing argument for it.

I disagree. The attraction of anonymity and privacy is a good reason for the popularity of cash, and of certain portable stores of value such as diamonds and gold. You can want to be discreet about your affairs without being some kind of criminal.

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362141

Postby odysseus2000 » December 2nd, 2020, 12:36 pm

Lootman wrote:
PeterGray wrote:The only obvious area where the use of bitcoin has real value (other than bubble investing) is for those who want to be able to make hidden financial transactions - drug dealers and other illegal uses, in reality. Hardly a ringing argument for it.

I disagree. The attraction of anonymity and privacy is a good reason for the popularity of cash, and of certain portable stores of value such as diamonds and gold. You can want to be discreet about your affairs without being some kind of criminal.


As I see things, the big downside to the current Fiat currencies is that the central banks can print as much as they want. This must dilute any existing holder.

With Bitcoin there is no ability to create extra coins and as such no capability for central banks to dilute existing holders.

This is the most fundamental change since the gold standard was abandoned and we all began to use Fiat currencies with all the potential for central banks to print as needed.

Whether Bitcoin is safe and suitable for widows and orphans is unknowable. What we do know is that Fiat currencies can not hold their value and that is not good for widows and orphans.

Regards,

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362181

Postby JohnB » December 2nd, 2020, 1:17 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Whether Bitcoin is safe and suitable for widows and orphans is unknowable. What we do know is that Fiat currencies can not hold their value and that is not good for widows and orphans.


I think its clear that Bitcoin is not safe for widows and orphans. Would you recommend something which changed value like this to them? https://www.coinbase.com/price/bitcoin

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362264

Postby GoSeigen » December 2nd, 2020, 3:32 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Whether Bitcoin is safe and suitable for widows and orphans is unknowable. What we do know is that Fiat currencies can not hold their value and that is not good for widows and orphans.


Sorry but why are we comparing bitcoin to fiat currencies? The value of bitcoin is measured in fiat currency terms so any value you think your bitcoin might have will also fall as the fiat currency's value falls.

And just to nip this one in the bud: Bitcoin is NOT a currency.

GS

odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362272

Postby odysseus2000 » December 2nd, 2020, 3:55 pm

Sorry but why are we comparing bitcoin to fiat currencies? The value of bitcoin is measured in fiat currency terms so any value you think your bitcoin might have will also fall as the fiat currency's value falls.

And just to nip this one in the bud: Bitcoin is NOT a currency.

GS


Ok, explain then how something that is not a currency can be exchanged for a currency.

What is Bitcoin then?

Regards,

odysseus2000
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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362273

Postby odysseus2000 » December 2nd, 2020, 3:58 pm

JohnB wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Whether Bitcoin is safe and suitable for widows and orphans is unknowable. What we do know is that Fiat currencies can not hold their value and that is not good for widows and orphans.


I think its clear that Bitcoin is not safe for widows and orphans. Would you recommend something which changed value like this to them? https://www.coinbase.com/price/bitcoin


Would you recommend something to them that is being printed down in value all the time?

We are now at a point where all the major currencies are being diluted by vast new supply.

Regards,

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362279

Postby Lanark » December 2nd, 2020, 4:02 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:With Bitcoin there is no ability to create extra coins and as such no capability for central banks to dilute existing holders.

However there is an infinite capacity for new digital currencies ready to usurp Bitcoin. When another coin appears which offers a bigger and sustained rise in value why would you stick with Bitcoin.
It hasnt happened yet, but there is plenty of time.

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Re: Bitcoin peaks at record high close to $20,000

#362281

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » December 2nd, 2020, 4:04 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
Sorry but why are we comparing bitcoin to fiat currencies? The value of bitcoin is measured in fiat currency terms so any value you think your bitcoin might have will also fall as the fiat currency's value falls.

And just to nip this one in the bud: Bitcoin is NOT a currency.

GS


Ok, explain then how something that is not a currency can be exchanged for a currency.

What is Bitcoin then?

Regards,

Have I misunderstood? I thought (and stand to be corrected) that a currency was any form of money that was supported by FIAT and that money on the other hand is effectively linked to a gold standard or other valuable commodity (in very simplistic terms)? Does that make Bitcoin by default a "cryptocurrency"?

I may have to phone a friend I think :oops:

AiY


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