Bitcoin start-up advice needed

[1nvest]

And I haven't even talked about the investment case for bitcoin which in my opinion is just a little bit less than NIL. No one has ever shown me where the value of this monster lies.

Would you rather own the Mona Lisa, or have purchased the private key to one of a "limited" set of encrypted digital copies of the Mona Lisa? For me the latter has no value. The only reason I might buy some is purely on a speculative or volatility trading basis. I have no need to spend in bitcoins as £'s works fine for me on that front.

[SteMiS]

Apart from anything the entire bitcoin/crypto scene is scam after scam after scam.

Having spent some time getting to understand the background and mechanics of crypto, I must admit I'm in two minds about it. There's certainly an elegance about how it works and one can see some attraction in it. However whether any will ever become a mainstream 'currency' I have my doubts. I suppose one could make a case for Ethereum, Solana etc and, IF I was investing in anything (which I'm not) it would probably be in this area of the crypto-universe. The problem of course is valuation. As essentially a value driven investor I've no real way of valuing these currencies. One could obviously say the same about gold, but I suppose it's been around a bit longer and we at least have some historical 'evidence' of how it will react in different economic conditions. As a last resort one could take delivery and at least sit and look at it.

[Mike4]

As a last resort one could take delivery and at least sit and look at it.

Or even use it to make wedding rings, tiaras, durable electrical contacts or a million other things gold is good for. This at least gives the gold some basic utility value.

With crypto coinage there is nothing other than the hope that someone else will buy it from you for more than you paid.

[Lootman]

As a last resort one could take delivery and at least sit and look at it.

Or even use it to make wedding rings, tiaras, durable electrical contacts or a million other things gold is good for. This at least gives the gold some basic utility value.

With crypto coinage there is nothing other than the hope that someone else will buy it from you for more than you paid.

Actually one thing about gold is that it is not particularly useful as a metal. Aside from decorative uses, which you could say about any metal, the main practical use I can think of for gold is in dentistry where, in many ways, it is the ideal material for making crowns (*).

And yes, some electrical use. But the most important properties of gold are that it is immutable and eternal - it does not corrode, rot, dissolve or otherwise degrade over time. Of course its other critical factor is that no government can control it, although some have tried with limited success.

The only other thing I can think of in that category is diamonds. Again these have some industrial use but are mostly valued by their jewelry value. And valuing diamonds is a dark art.

(*) I have four gold crowns in my mouth and they perform perfectly. My instructions for my kids upon my demise is to make sure they are extracted for their value.

[SteMiS]

As a last resort one could take delivery and at least sit and look at it.

Or even use it to make wedding rings, tiaras, durable electrical contacts or a million other things gold is good for. This at least gives the gold some basic utility value.

With crypto coinage there is nothing other than the hope that someone else will buy it from you for more than you paid.

I'm far from a cryptophile but I think that's rather overstating the case. Gold's 'use' in jewelry largely arises from it's value rather than vice versa. Crypto's underpining rationale (as least bitcoin and similar) is as a means of exchange...just like other 'currencies'. If you don't like that people 'trade them' for profit then I've got some currency speculators you can meet. At heart, any currency (whether it's sterling, bitcoin or the Zimbabwe dollar) stands or falls on the faith that people place in it. Whether bitcoin will survive the test of time is another matter, but 'inherently' (at least in the context of this discussion) it's no different that the stuff you've 'got' in your bank account.

[Urbandreamer]

With crypto coinage there is nothing other than the hope that someone else will buy it from you for more than you paid.

While of course you don't have the hope that someone will pay more for the pound in your pocket in 5 years time. Indeed, as I understand it, it's government policy that they pay less.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetar ... /inflation

The Government has set us a target of keeping inflation at 2%

I wonder if folk here have heard the term Hodl "Hold on for Dear Life" used in the bitcoin community? Gresham's "law" comes to mind.

[Mike4]

Crypto's underpining rationale (as least bitcoin and similar) is as a means of exchange...just like other 'currencies'. If you don't like that people 'trade them' for profit then I've got some currency speculators you can meet. At heart, any currency (whether it's sterling, bitcoin or the Zimbabwe dollar) stands or falls on the faith that people place in it. Whether bitcoin will survive the test of time is another matter, but 'inherently' (at least in the context of this discussion) it's no different that the stuff you've 'got' in your bank account.

But it isn't 'just like other currencies'. I can use £ or $ to buy Mars bars, fuel for my car, pay for my house to be decorated or buy pretty much anything with them. I can't do this with any of the cryptocurrencies so far. Granted it might become possible in the future but there is no sign of it happening yet.

But I get your point about all currencies depending on confidence. I'm just saying crypto doesn't yet meet my perception of a mainstream currency, yet, if ever, so for now the only point in buying it is to sell it later to someone for more money. Nothing wrong with that but as you say, it is speculation not investing.

[SteMiS]

Crypto's underpining rationale (as least bitcoin and similar) is as a means of exchange...just like other 'currencies'. If you don't like that people 'trade them' for profit then I've got some currency speculators you can meet. At heart, any currency (whether it's sterling, bitcoin or the Zimbabwe dollar) stands or falls on the faith that people place in it. Whether bitcoin will survive the test of time is another matter, but 'inherently' (at least in the context of this discussion) it's no different that the stuff you've 'got' in your bank account.

But it isn't 'just like other currencies'. I can use £ or $ to buy Mars bars, fuel for my car, pay for my house to be decorated or buy pretty much anything with them. I can't do this with any of the cryptocurrencies so far. Granted it might become possible in the future but there is no sign of it happening yet.

But you'd probably struggle with to buy your Mar bar, pay for fuel or your house to be decorated with the South Korean won or the Peruvian sol, which I'm pretty sure are currencies. They all just operate in different spheres.

But I get your point about all currencies depending on confidence. I'm just saying crypto doesn't yet meet my perception of a mainstream currency, yet, if ever, so for now the only point in buying it is to sell it later to someone for more money. Nothing wrong with that but as you say, it is speculation not investing.

'Mainstream' I guess is an opinion. But it's certainly true that you can buy real stuff with crypto - https://www.investopedia.com/what-can-y ... in-5179592

[Urbandreamer]

Crypto's underpining rationale (as least bitcoin and similar) is as a means of exchange...just like other 'currencies'. If you don't like that people 'trade them' for profit then I've got some currency speculators you can meet. At heart, any currency (whether it's sterling, bitcoin or the Zimbabwe dollar) stands or falls on the faith that people place in it. Whether bitcoin will survive the test of time is another matter, but 'inherently' (at least in the context of this discussion) it's no different that the stuff you've 'got' in your bank account.

But it isn't 'just like other currencies'. I can use £ or $ to buy Mars bars, fuel for my car, pay for my house to be decorated or buy pretty much anything with them. I can't do this with any of the cryptocurrencies so far. Granted it might become possible in the future but there is no sign of it happening yet.

Actually you may not be able to use $'s to buy a Mars bar in the UK. Here the £ is the legal tender. People are required to accept it. They are not required to accept $'s. Normally you would have to convert your $'s to £'s at a "bureau de change". You will find one in most ports, banks and post offices may also offer the service. You could of course use something like a charge or debit card, but they would just pay in £'s, charge you in your home currency and add a fee for the service.

Have you tried spending $ notes or coins in the UK? It can be difficult even spending £'s that have been printed in Scotland. Many of us have travelled overseas and guess what, you can't usually spend £'s. You need to convert them to the local currency.

Possibly you meant that there are countries in the world where you can spend the US $. Well have I got news for you, there is one where you can spend bitcoins just like US $'s. El Salvador has made bitcoin legal tender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_jXGGA41SY
Skip to 2:08 to avoid the disclaimer and request to subscribe.

Likewise, to take the charge card example, you can get bitcoin charge cards. Pay people in £'s or $'s and get charged in bitcoin.
Here is one that uses the Visa network (Care of a google search).
https://crypto.com/cards

Sure bitcoin isn't like other currencies such as the Bolivar or Dong, but your argument doesn't touch upon why it isn't. I also REALLY doubt that you can buy a Mars bar with a handful of Dong in the UK.

[88V8]

There is a finite supply, and some of the Bitcoin already mined have been lost.
Add an increasing demand, and the price will rise.
Unless govts interfere.

Not that I plan on buying any, but there is a supply/demand case.

V8

[XFool]

Here is one that uses the Visa network (Care of a google search).
https://crypto.com/cards

How do I apply for a Crypto.com Visa Card?
"You need to stake CRO tokens for a period of 180 days to apply for a Crypto.com Visa Card.

To do so, first sign up for a Crypto.com App account and complete our KYC verification. Next, purchase CRO tokens and deposit them into your Crypto Wallet in the App. If you buy CRO directly in the App, then no action is required. The amount of CRO depends on the card tier you’re applying for...."

Which exchange rate will you use?
"We have competitive exchange rates for both fiat and cryptocurrencies. The exact rates depend on your jurisdiction and card tier. We will provide all these details in the Crypto.com Visa Card Terms and Conditions when you apply for your card."

Are there any fees I should be aware of?
"Information about fees and limits (i.e. free ATM withdrawals, interbank exchange rates, top-ups, etc.) can be found in the ‘Fees & Limits’ section under ‘Settings’ in the Crypto.com App. Fees vary by card tier, so be sure you’re checking the correct one."

Um...

[Urbandreamer]

....Are there any fees I should be aware of?
"Information about fees and limits (i.e. free ATM withdrawals, interbank exchange rates, top-ups, etc.) can be found in the ‘Fees & Limits’ section under ‘Settings’ in the Crypto.com App. Fees vary by card tier, so be sure you’re checking the correct one."

Um...

And.... ?

Look there are alternatives.

https://bitcourier.co.uk/blog/bitcoin-debit-cards-uk

I'm not telling you to use a bitcoin card. Here a card from CityBank that deals with £'s, at quite a cost.
https://citibank.co.uk/personal/card-fees-charges.do

Sorry, did you think that somehow I was recommending the best card?

I was simply pointing out that Mike4 was wrong if he thought that paying using a card was somehow different, should you chose to use bitcoin as a currency.

Ps, check out the Revolut card. Like I said earlier in this post, they offer a lot more than bitcoin. Personally I am not interested in spending bitcoin. However there are arguments for PAYING to convert your £'s to bitcoin and far later paying to convert them back again to spend them. Revolut doesn't seem that bad an option from that view point.

I don't have one and this is not a recommendation.

[Mike4]

I was simply pointing out that Mike4 was wrong if he thought that paying using a card was somehow different, should you chose to use bitcoin as a currency.

Eh? I don't remember saying that. I was suggesting most high street retailers around here would decline direct payment in bitcoin. Not that I've tried to buy say, a broom in the local hardware shop using bitcoin or any other crypto, I admit.

Paying for my broom with a debit or credit card that settles the transaction in £ then exchanges it for BTC in the background is obviously a totally different proposition.

[Urbandreamer]

I was simply pointing out that Mike4 was wrong if he thought that paying using a card was somehow different, should you chose to use bitcoin as a currency.

Eh? I don't remember saying that. I was suggesting most high street retailers around here would decline direct payment in bitcoin. Not that I've tried to buy say, a broom in the local hardware shop using bitcoin or any other crypto, I admit.

Paying for my broom with a debit or credit card that settles the transaction in £ then exchanges it for BTC in the background is obviously a totally different proposition.

Sorry Mike. I made a point and your lack of response caused me to make assumptions. As I suspect that others did. Again, sorry.

[GoSeigen]

I was simply pointing out that Mike4 was wrong if he thought that paying using a card was somehow different, should you chose to use bitcoin as a currency.

Eh? I don't remember saying that. I was suggesting most high street retailers around here would decline direct payment in bitcoin. Not that I've tried to buy say, a broom in the local hardware shop using bitcoin or any other crypto, I admit.

Paying for my broom with a debit or credit card that settles the transaction in £ then exchanges it for BTC in the background is obviously a totally different proposition.

Indeed MIke4, and it's wore than that: that sort of credit card wouldn't even be doing the transaction in actual bitcoin, but only a derivative of bitcoin. People are never going to use bitcoin to do everyday transactions. It literally is not going to happen. It will always be derivatives, i.e. there will always be a middleman involved like a bank involved. [Not to mention other problems like the money supply is not limited it is infinite, so you need a central bank/regulator.]

If you finally accept this reality you have to ask why don't you just use the money that banks already offer?

GS

[Mike4]

I was simply pointing out that Mike4 was wrong if he thought that paying using a card was somehow different, should you chose to use bitcoin as a currency.

Eh? I don't remember saying that. I was suggesting most high street retailers around here would decline direct payment in bitcoin. Not that I've tried to buy say, a broom in the local hardware shop using bitcoin or any other crypto, I admit.

Paying for my broom with a debit or credit card that settles the transaction in £ then exchanges it for BTC in the background is obviously a totally different proposition.

Sorry Mike. I made a point and your lack of response caused me to make assumptions. As I suspect that others did. Again, sorry.

I thought it a frivolous and peripheral point not worthy of a response. Of course one cannot use the wrong currencies in the wrong countries.

[Fluke]

But I get your point about all currencies depending on confidence.

A confidence born out of multiple billions of micro-transactions every second in said currency keeping it stable, such that it is worth more or less at the end of the day what it was at the beginning, enabling you to confidently buy and sell stuff the next day and so and and so forth. Until crypto can do the same it cannot be thought of as a currency and therefore is a speculative investment whereby you hope you are not the last person holding it when it goes pop. Good luck with that.

[1nvest]

I was simply pointing out that Mike4 was wrong if he thought that paying using a card was somehow different, should you chose to use bitcoin as a currency.

Eh? I don't remember saying that. I was suggesting most high street retailers around here would decline direct payment in bitcoin. Not that I've tried to buy say, a broom in the local hardware shop using bitcoin or any other crypto, I admit.

Paying for my broom with a debit or credit card that settles the transaction in £ then exchanges it for BTC in the background is obviously a totally different proposition.

Indeed MIke4, and it's wore than that: that sort of credit card wouldn't even be doing the transaction in actual bitcoin, but only a derivative of bitcoin. People are never going to use bitcoin to do everyday transactions. It literally is not going to happen. It will always be derivatives, i.e. there will always be a middleman involved like a bank involved. [Not to mention other problems like the money supply is not limited it is infinite, so you need a central bank/regulator.]

If you finally accept this reality you have to ask why don't you just use the money that banks already offer?

GS

Push come to shove and if bitcoin became favoured over conventional banks then bank runs could follow and the entire financial system go into meltdown. As such I can't see Btc being permitted to endure other than if regulated and not being seen as a everyday alternative to the legal tender/money to which it otherwise might have been a competitor.

Perhaps via regulation - not permitting retailers to price-in/accept non legal tender currencies. Along with transparency - on the basis of otherwise being used for illegal activities ...etc. Along with official alternatives, Britcoin, backed by the state to cater for digitisation.

As such I see the mid/longer term value of Btc being low/zero and current pricing being purely based on speculation that it would ultimately prevail (and create a financial meltdown).

[Urbandreamer]

Push come to shove and if bitcoin became favoured over conventional banks then bank runs could follow and the entire financial system go into meltdown. As such I can't see Btc being permitted to endure other than if regulated and not being seen as a everyday alternative to the legal tender/money to which it otherwise might have been a competitor.

A dire prediction. But why would you get bank runs? After all your money has always been safe in the bank hasn't it?
While we are at it, why would BTC become favoured over conventional banking? Have not a lot of comentators, including yourself, argued that it won't for XYZ reasons?

As for it not being permited to endure, didn't China recently do something about bitcoin? Interestingly the bitcoin community were relatively happy that this increased the safety of the currency against what is know as a 51% attack.

This article is an interesting read. I know that bitcoin naysayers may dismiss it without reading it, but I post the link as food for thought.
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/ch ... ical-event

[Hornblower]

Good evening guys,

I hold a few shares and investment funds but feel that I would like to dip my toe into Bitcoin (only £1500 ish investment). I have used Google and there are so many variables about how to invest it has become confusing … are there any people on this forum who could suggest the steps I take to secure a small portfolio which is as safe as possible? I have read about holt and cold wallets, people stealing Bitcoins etc etc. - I understand that I shouldn't invest more than I could afford to lose. Maybe there are UK companies that people have used to do all the work for them for a small fee? Just putting it out there.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Mark

I'm happy to help you if you are still interested in buying Bitcoin. I have been dabbling in the space since 2016. I own Bitcoin, I also used to own other crypto-currencies, and I also have equity in bitcoin-related companies.

Here's all you need to do (assuming you are in the UK):

go to the website Coincorner (dotcom)
The company operates from the Isle-of-Mann & has been around for years. I have no affiliation, I met the team at a conference once.