Cryptocurrencies, bitcoin

[JMN2]

Sorry if these are already discussed elsewhere, didn't see though but mods please do your magic if need be.

I understand nothing about these but early 2014 bought into a fund - run by a chap I know - based in quite an exotic location, my rationale was to buy a lottery ticket, same as premium bonds and some gold I have, buy and forget, except these either go to zero or bonanza! The fund is quite sophisticated, not just bitcoins but they do all kinds of lending etc for additional return. At the moment I am looking at around 140% return but it might be or not before the usual 20% fee.

I have also bought 1 actual bitcoin and keep the code number on a piece of paper in a safe place.

Anyoe else? Thoughts?

[Urbandreamer]

My first thought....TWENTY PERCENT FEE???

It's probably the Scots in me.

I could tell. Seriously that was the fee charged by ship captains, and now charged by hedge funds.

The origin of carried interest can be traced to the 16th century, when European ships were crossing to Asia and the Americas. The captain of the ship would take a 20% share of the profit from the carried goods, to pay for the transport and the risk of sailing over oceans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carried_interest

[JMN2]

The one bitcoin I have I'll look to the bitter end or a cool million but the fund I'll start cashing in at some earlier stage - otherwise I'll never be able to stay inside the personal allowance threshold...

[JMN2]

Bitcoin £ graph looks interesting, seems to be falling on its back soon. I am taking off the plate my initial investment and letting the rest ride as a "free investment" for the time being.

[epo1]

So, who do you sell bitcoin to, and how? Given that you are sending them a digital certificate or somesuch, how do you ensure you get paid once they have the certificate?

[JMN2]

So, who do you sell bitcoin to, and how? Given that you are sending them a digital certificate or somesuch, how do you ensure you get paid once they have the certificate?

Good question, I have no clear idea. The investment I mentioned earlier is a fund, or rather Cayman-registered shares in an investment vehicle.

But when I bought my one single bitcoin (a lottery ticket) I bought it through bittylicious.com and paid with BACS, I got a code and could go online and see the actual bitcoin there, and I have two codes, private and secret. The public one I could give you and you could say donate bitcoins to me as a nice chap ie pay in to me but you couldn't get your sweaty mitts on my bitcoin without knowing the secret private code - which I only have on a piece of paper as I am not tech savvy.

The private code I got from here, it is random generated: http://www.bitaddress.org

[buzzzard000]

So, who do you sell bitcoin to, and how? Given that you are sending them a digital certificate or somesuch, how do you ensure you get paid once they have the certificate?

Register with one of the online exchanges (Bitstamp, coinbase, coinfloor, Kraken...).
Complete the verification process (1 to 14 days...).
Transfer the bitcoin to the exchange (copy and past the address code, press send, provide password).
Sell on the exchange (probably for USD or EUR).
Withdraw the currency to your bank account (paying bank to exchange to BGP).

I would expect to loose maybe £50 and 1 to 2% in fees and to take 2 weeks.

Buzzz

P.S. the Bitcoin network is capacity constrained at the moment, fees and delays are increasing. The days of buying a coffee with a fraction of a bitcoin are past (but may return). Litecoin and Ethereum are have lower fees and are faster, but less adoption at the moment.

[JMN2]

So two months ago I took my initial investment off the table and everything's looking cushty still, I have now 4 x my initial investment riding on this lovely pony of sweet returns...

[Itsallaguess]

the Bitcoin network is capacity constrained at the moment, fees and delays are increasing.

I noticed that Bitcoin was forked a short while ago, with 'Bitcoin Cash' now being launched to try to get around some of the built-in capacity-constraints that the original Bitcoin has -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2 ... hard-fork/

It's had a few teething issues, apparently -

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/04/new-bit ... -week.html

Given that there's now a relatively large number of these digital-currencies around, and given that it's relatively simple to come up with a new one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cryptocurrencies - There were more than 900 crypto-currencies available over the internet as of 11 July 2017 and growing. New cryptocurrency can be created any time.), I think there's a good chance that for the foreseeable future they'll just be seen as a wild investment by the majority of people, rather than anything resembling a real-world currency.

Don't they simply lack credibility for the sort of wider-world user that would need to take them up for them to be successful over the long-term?

For a huge sceptic like me, would anyone like to try to convince me why that's not the case?

Surely that simple fact that the Bitcoin value has varied so wildly over recent years, which I accept will clearly makes it a wild investment-ride for some people, goes much of the way to proving that it can never be relied upon to act as a surrogate currency, which is, on paper anyway, supposed to be it's primary purpose?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[johnhemming]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

Moderator Message:
It is not good practice to give a link without some context. It is obvious what you are getting at, but a few extra words would prevent anyone needlessly clicking on the link.

TJH

[JMN2]

Itsallaguess, I really don't understand bitcoin, but over year ago I bought one for £450 and tucked it away. Hype, mania, craze, fad, currency, application, technology....whatever it is when there's a lot of talk about bitcoin going to million dollars and beyond I'm just happy to hold one as a lottery ticket. I have it in the same category as Lonmin and Brewdog shares - if it goes tits up my lifestyle won't be affected.

[Itsallaguess]

Itsallaguess, I really don't understand bitcoin, but over year ago I bought one for £450 and tucked it away. Hype, mania, craze, fad, currency, application, technology....whatever it is when there's a lot of talk about bitcoin going to million dollars and beyond I'm just happy to hold one as a lottery ticket. I have it in the same category as Lonmin and Brewdog shares - if it goes tits up my lifestyle won't be affected.

But doesn't that almost prove my point, that Bitcoin is much more a volatile investment than a bona-fide currency?

No-one puts a £10 note in the kitchen drawer with a hope to looking at it's worth in 25 years....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[BobbyD]

No-one puts a £10 note in the kitchen drawer with a hope to looking at it's worth in 25 years....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Which isn't to say that more people shouldn't consider the future value of their savings.

The same could be said of many currencies some of which operate in parrallel to a more stable dollar economy in their native lands... for some reason when you say currency everybody thinks USD and EUR not ZWD, RUB or GBP...

Having said that it always struck me as a strange discrimination. A pound coin or a dollar bill is as much a thing as a gold bar or a '57 corvette, and the numbers in my bank account are about as real as the numbers allotted to me in my brokers' nominee accounts. The idea that one of those might be a 'safe and conservative' place to keep your wealth seems a little optimistic to me.

[Itsallaguess]

Having said that it always struck me as a strange discrimination.

A pound coin or a dollar bill is as much a thing as a gold bar or a '57 corvette, and the numbers in my bank account are about as real as the numbers allotted to me in my brokers' nominee accounts.

The idea that one of those might be a 'safe and conservative' place to keep your wealth seems a little optimistic to me.

Well, I'd probably agree with that, but surely there comes a point where something that's initially designed to be used as a 'currency' becomes so extremely volatile in terms of valuation, that it begins to fail in it's primary purpose, if indeed that was Bitcoin's primary purpose in the first place....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[BobbyD]

Having said that it always struck me as a strange discrimination.

A pound coin or a dollar bill is as much a thing as a gold bar or a '57 corvette, and the numbers in my bank account are about as real as the numbers allotted to me in my brokers' nominee accounts.

The idea that one of those might be a 'safe and conservative' place to keep your wealth seems a little optimistic to me.

Well, I'd probably agree with that, but surely there comes a point where something that's initially designed to be used as a 'currency' becomes so extremely volatile in terms of valuation, that it begins to fail in it's primary purpose, if indeed that was Bitcoin's primary purpose in the first place....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I probably don't disagree with that, although I share your lack of knowledge as to what the original purpose of bitcoin was. It could be seen simply as an experiment on the viability of old style non-state currencies in the digital age, an examination of the perception of value, an attempt to reverse the increasing de-anonymisation of purchasing power, or simply a get rich scheme and doubtless many more as well.

My only potential disagreement is that I don't see the original intention as being especially relevant. Currency or investment vehicle? My guess is if you come to it expecting to find it is a particle you find it is a particle and if you come to it expecting to see a wave then you find it is a wave. The difference isn't in the object, but in the observer. It can be both at the same time.

[robbelg]

Itsallaguess, I really don't understand bitcoin, but over year ago I bought one for £450 and tucked it away. Hype, mania, craze, fad, currency, application, technology....whatever it is when there's a lot of talk about bitcoin going to million dollars and beyond I'm just happy to hold one as a lottery ticket. I have it in the same category as Lonmin and Brewdog shares - if it goes tits up my lifestyle won't be affected.

Are you aware that its currently worth over £2,600

Rob

[JMN2]

Itsallaguess, I really don't understand bitcoin, but over year ago I bought one for £450 and tucked it away. Hype, mania, craze, fad, currency, application, technology....whatever it is when there's a lot of talk about bitcoin going to million dollars and beyond I'm just happy to hold one as a lottery ticket. I have it in the same category as Lonmin and Brewdog shares - if it goes tits up my lifestyle won't be affected.

Are you aware that its currently worth over £2,600

Rob

Yes but £2k profit doesn't really make a lottery win yet...how would I feel if I took that profit and 3 years later bitcoin was $10mn? I may get a bit edgy when it hits $100k...

[Surerera]

Just to join in the conversation, I think Bitcoin was designed to be a currency but it has yet to find it's true value so it will keep going up until it has found it's value and is widely used/accepted - or of course gets overtaken by another crypto currency such as Ethereum. When they started first trading the price was about 3 cents, it's now $3300. I am still long from when I first bought them in 2012 at about $10 and have no intention of selling yet. Think of them as the opposite of fiat if you like. Over time fiat money has become worth less and less while Bitcoin has become worth more and more. I could be totally wrong of course but that's the way I look at it.

[StepOne]

... Bitcoin ... has yet to find it's true value so it will keep going up until it has found it's value ...

... or down?

StepOne

[Surerera]

Of course they could go down, like just about anything else us fools invest in!

Surerera