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SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
I would like to be able to know whether my SS ISA investment (all funds with low to moderate risk) were selected by my ex IFA) are performing as they should.
I have used the https://www.standardlife.co.uk/investme ... erformance to look up each fund and the result came back with :
Cumulative Performance (%)
Since launch
Year to date
1 Yr
3 Yr
5 Yr
10Yr
As some of the results / figures are in RED and the figures very low (10 year cumulative percentage, fo one fund it is '-11.23' ), this led me to think that I may need to sell those that are not performing as expected as these funds were brough over 20 years ago and the total valuation has been not grown as expected for past 5 years (I am not sure whether that is correct).
Will any of the column below help me decide whether to sell or keep the funds?
Appreciate your comments.
I have used the https://www.standardlife.co.uk/investme ... erformance to look up each fund and the result came back with :
Cumulative Performance (%)
Since launch
Year to date
1 Yr
3 Yr
5 Yr
10Yr
As some of the results / figures are in RED and the figures very low (10 year cumulative percentage, fo one fund it is '-11.23' ), this led me to think that I may need to sell those that are not performing as expected as these funds were brough over 20 years ago and the total valuation has been not grown as expected for past 5 years (I am not sure whether that is correct).
Will any of the column below help me decide whether to sell or keep the funds?
Appreciate your comments.
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
I think you need to repost with all the figures visible - tables don't always work as you'd wish on a forum. Use the Preview button to check if it comes up readable.
Having said that, "low to moderate risk" might have included a significant amount of bonds, and they had an unusually bad return recently; try and compare them with funds with similar proportions of bonds.
Having said that, "low to moderate risk" might have included a significant amount of bonds, and they had an unusually bad return recently; try and compare them with funds with similar proportions of bonds.
Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
EthicsGradient wrote:I think you need to repost with all the figures visible - tables don't always work as you'd wish on a forum. Use the Preview button to check if it comes up readable.
Having said that, "low to moderate risk" might have included a significant amount of bonds, and they had an unusually bad return recently; try and compare them with funds with similar proportions of bonds.
Thanks for letting me know about posting tables. I have try reformatting the table using most of the available buttons (above).
Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
A jpeg image of the figures : https://imgur.com/a/p1NpiRJ
Hopefully it is visible
Hopefully it is visible
Last edited by MISA on February 2nd, 2025, 12:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
This is list of the SS ISA funds (these figures are the same as the image in my previous post)
Cumulative Performance (%)
Fund no ISIN Number Fund name Since launch Year to date 1 Yr 3 Yr 5 Yr 10Yr
1 GB00B4NVSH01 Jupiter European I Inc 345.7 8.02 2.07 17.56 29.78 150.09
2 GB00B8GBZY18 BNY Mellon Oriental Inst W Inc GBP 3161.38 1.38 20.09 4.39 39.25 105.7
3 GB00B2Q5DR06 JPM US Select C Acc 871.95 2.48 24.93 52.54 110.42 318.78
4 GB00B8169Q14 CT UK Eq Inc ZNI GBP 1023.92 2.18 15.29 26.74 38.86 90.31
5 GB00B7LDLV43 Schroder US Mid Cap Z Acc (PDF) NO match found Schroder US Mid Cap Z Acc (PDF)
6 GB0033874768 Stewart Investors AsPcLdrStn B AGBP 981.3 0.49 10.9 9.79 39.92 99.7
7 GB00B7FD4C20 AXA Framlington UK Sel Opps ZI Acc 1014.81 3.9 8.61 -1.61 4.07 38.99
8 GB00B3Q6QH18 Marlborough Far East Growth P Inc 252.47 0.49 15.13 -0.58 20.44 81.31
9 GB00B8N46V79 Invesco UK Eq Inc (UK) Z Acc 1161.33 4.57 12.22 19.79 11.26 17.16
10 GB00B76V7Z98 Schroder UK Smaller Companies Z Acc 2529.25 -1.17 11.99 -11.7 6.02 95.54
11 GB00B3Q9WG18 Rathbone Income Fund I A GBP 1191.78 3.81 7.93 15.77 25.06 65.81
12 GB00B4X1L373 M&G Recovery I Acc GBP 49995 2.85 20.07 8.6 10.65 28.76
13 GB00B4SZR818 GB00B4SZR818 NO match found Schroder Tokyo Z Acc (PDF)
14 GB00B0WDH832 Allianz Emerging Mkts Eq C Acc 225.61 1.72 17.85 14.08 34.48 87.34
15 GB00B60WTT90 Jupiter Eur Special Sits I Acc 1015.77 6.91 -0.44 6.95 14.8 65.77
16 GB00B7T2FK07 Threadneedle Am ZNA GBP 2795.98 4.54 23.22 43.75 93.97 295.7
17 GB00BNBS8650 FTF MCJaEq W Acc GBP 443.28 5.75 -1.82 -19.52 -23.64 98.73
18 GB00B0XWNG99 abrdn Asia Pacific Equity I Acc 3828.66 -1.14 10.74 -5.93 12.38 60.13
19 GB00B6YTYJ18 BlackRock Cntl European D Inc 1939.74 7.22 4.63 24.2 70.77 200.81
20 GB00B8FC6L92 Jupiter UK Mid Cap I IGBP 766.55 1.84 7.21 -22.34 -23.07 36.25
21 GB00B7NB1W76 Barings ErpSelTrst I Inc GBP 2909.3 5.64 8.18 3.15 20.03 121.16
22 GB0033874545 Stewart Investors Gb EMLd B GBP Ac 557.69 1.77 5.63 7.49 12.64 34.04
23 GB00BHBX8S02 Jupiter UK Sm Cos U1 AGBP 995.22 -1.81 6.69 -23.33 -15.79 70.59
24 GB00B3R25W66 BlackRock UK Special Sits D Inc 1506.35 2.82 7.61 0.5 5.47 72.26
25 GB00B60R7N45 GB00B60R7N45 NO match found Schroder UK Alpha Plus Z Inc (PDF)
26 GB00B3F47512 Man GLG Japan Core Alpha D Prof Inc 356.01 3.82 13.39 44.96 59.19 150.97
27 GB0007221889 GB0007221889 NO match found Schroder Eur Rec Z Acc (PDF)
28 GB00B88N705 ASI Asia Pacific Equity I Inc 82.14 -1.14 10.73 -5.94 12.36 60.06
29 GB00BYYZ0W06 Aviva Inv UK Prop Fdr Acc 2 25.01 0.05 0.28 0.99 -12.07 -11.23
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
A low-cost world equity (share) fund e.g. F&C Investment Trust (FCIT) has grown with dividends re-invested at about 12% per year on average over the past 20 years. This roughly works out at doubling every 6 years. Alternatively, you would have 10 times the value now as compared to 20 years ago.
Low/medium risk to an advisor usually means cash or cash equivalents e.g. bonds. An investor with 20 years ahead will forego a lot of growth by going with recommendations from such an advisor.
Low/medium risk to an advisor usually means cash or cash equivalents e.g. bonds. An investor with 20 years ahead will forego a lot of growth by going with recommendations from such an advisor.
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
In the "real" world, things are very different from what people desire.
A comment has already been made about "moderate risk" often carrying the cost of poor returns.
I'd go further and make the following points.
Investing on the stock market is nothing like depositing in a savings account. Returns do not show as a straight line on a graph, instead they are all over the place. Even with "moderate risk" investments.
You also can't simply plan, then sit back and await the results. Times change and the Buggy Whip manufacturer may not move with the times. The manager your IFA used should have been reviewing the portfolio at least every three years and over the course of 10 it's likely that there would be cause to change at least one selection. You certainly need to do so going forward.
Passive investors avoid having to change their selection, by hiding the fact that it happens. If you invest in a index tracker, your selection changes every time that the contents of the index is changed.
Finally, you need to consider what the remit for selection was, to understand if the portfolio or it's constituents is performing as it should. A portfolio dedicated to providing income will perform very different from one selected with the intent to provide the best capital returns in 20 years time.
Implementing the latter point is where I have struggled the most in my own portfolio selection. By nature I'm a "jam tomorrow" person, willing to accept significant reversals of fortune for the promise of long term gain. Arguably appropriate when I had an income. Now that I rely upon said portfolio for living expenses..... Well I've had to change selection criteria and the contents of my portfolio.
A comment has already been made about "moderate risk" often carrying the cost of poor returns.
I'd go further and make the following points.
Investing on the stock market is nothing like depositing in a savings account. Returns do not show as a straight line on a graph, instead they are all over the place. Even with "moderate risk" investments.
You also can't simply plan, then sit back and await the results. Times change and the Buggy Whip manufacturer may not move with the times. The manager your IFA used should have been reviewing the portfolio at least every three years and over the course of 10 it's likely that there would be cause to change at least one selection. You certainly need to do so going forward.
Passive investors avoid having to change their selection, by hiding the fact that it happens. If you invest in a index tracker, your selection changes every time that the contents of the index is changed.
Finally, you need to consider what the remit for selection was, to understand if the portfolio or it's constituents is performing as it should. A portfolio dedicated to providing income will perform very different from one selected with the intent to provide the best capital returns in 20 years time.
Implementing the latter point is where I have struggled the most in my own portfolio selection. By nature I'm a "jam tomorrow" person, willing to accept significant reversals of fortune for the promise of long term gain. Arguably appropriate when I had an income. Now that I rely upon said portfolio for living expenses..... Well I've had to change selection criteria and the contents of my portfolio.
Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
Appreciate the replies, if I want to check how each of my funds have been performing afte over 10 years of investing, should I be looking at the coiumn 'cumulative percentage over 10 years'? and considering selling the funds who has lower than 60%?
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
MISA wrote:This is list of the SS ISA funds (these figures are the same as the image in my previous post)[/list]
Cumulative Performance (%)
Fund no ISIN Number Fund name Since launch Year to date 1 Yr 3 Yr 5 Yr 10Yr
1 GB00B4NVSH01 Jupiter European I Inc 345.7 8.02 2.07 17.56 29.78 150.09
2 GB00B8GBZY18 BNY Mellon Oriental Inst W Inc GBP 3161.38 1.38 20.09 4.39 39.25 105.7
3 GB00B2Q5DR06 JPM US Select C Acc 871.95 2.48 24.93 52.54 110.42 318.78
To insert a table from an Excel or LibreOffice spreadsheet into a post, have a look at https://lemonfoolfinancialsoftware.weeb ... ormat.html
--kiloran
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
MISA wrote:Appreciate the replies, if I want to check how each of my funds have been performing afte over 10 years of investing, should I be looking at the coiumn 'cumulative percentage over 10 years'? and considering selling the funds who has lower than 60%?
I think 20 years is long enough to give your portfolio of funds the chance to show some decent total return.
The funds showing < 60% total return would be a good place to start reviewing - since we don't know what conversations you and your IFA have had.
For example if you assume 3% annual inflation over 20 years (I don't know what the actual is without a hunt) then the firepower of your investments should be ~80% just to stand still (1+0.03)^20
You are losing money even culling at 60% cut-off if the assumptions above are representative. 2% inflation comes in around 49% money erosion.
Maybe it is time for a review with your financial advisor. You have so many open ended funds all scattered over the planet you might be better ditching the lot and buying a global tracker.
If it were me I would part with the IFA if I felt unhappy, get myself an ISA account from one of the bigger on-line companies and buy myself some global trackers either in low cost ETF form or maybe Investment Trusts. You can even pick your own OEIC funds, such as you have in your listed portfolio, and you would be at least able to see the graphs of how the funds are getting on over the last 10 years.
Good luck
midgesgalore
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
The list of funds is fairly heavily weighted towards the UK (though we don't know if all your funds started off at the same size 20 years ago; if they did, then the weighting won't be so heavy now, because of the poorer performance). That might be a point to consider - UK funds have, over 10 years, not done as well as US ones. There are reasons some have for mainly being in the UK, but it might be worth considering if that's still your point of view.
The -11% one looks like property; this sector has had a particularly rough time. Having one out of 29 funds in property isn't unreasonable (and it's one area that doesn't get covered by standard equity funds, so if you think it's worth having a toe in it, then you just have to decide if those managers are going to do OK in the future).
The -11% one looks like property; this sector has had a particularly rough time. Having one out of 29 funds in property isn't unreasonable (and it's one area that doesn't get covered by standard equity funds, so if you think it's worth having a toe in it, then you just have to decide if those managers are going to do OK in the future).
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
Could I point out the bleeding obvious please, which is that the OP should not be making decisions on these funds based on their past performance, but on their future prospects.
And another obvious point which I think has already been made is that a fairly certain factor in their future performance is the level of fees they extract -- that should be the first thing the OP considers.
GS
And another obvious point which I think has already been made is that a fairly certain factor in their future performance is the level of fees they extract -- that should be the first thing the OP considers.
GS
Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
midgesgalore wrote:MISA wrote:Appreciate the replies, if I want to check how each of my funds have been performing afte over 10 years of investing, should I be looking at the coiumn 'cumulative percentage over 10 years'? and considering selling the funds who has lower than 60%?
I think 20 years is long enough to give your portfolio of funds the chance to show some decent total return.
The funds showing < 60% total return would be a good place to start reviewing - since we don't know what conversations you and your IFA have had.
For example if you assume 3% annual inflation over 20 years (I don't know what the actual is without a hunt) then the firepower of your investments should be ~80% just to stand still (1+0.03)^20
You are losing money even culling at 60% cut-off if the assumptions above are representative. 2% inflation comes in around 49% money erosion.
Maybe it is time for a review with your financial advisor. You have so many open ended funds all scattered over the planet you might be better ditching the lot and buying a global tracker.
If it were me I would part with the IFA if I felt unhappy, get myself an ISA account from one of the bigger on-line companies and buy myself some global trackers either in low cost ETF form or maybe Investment Trusts. You can even pick your own OEIC funds, such as you have in your listed portfolio, and you would be at least able to see the graphs of how the funds are getting on over the last 10 years.
Good luck
midgesgalore
I am thinking the same ie. transferring all my funds out of the AEGON platfrom. I am still trying to understand how to know which funds are worth transferring or sell and buy different funds.
What it work to use the fund's fact sheet's 'fund vs bench mark' for the past 5 years, and use the difference in pecentage to decide what to do with the funds? if so, is there a percentage I should use to base my decision on?
For example the 'Aviva Investors UK Property Feeder Acc Fund 2' , I was looking at the 'Cumulative performance' and the difference between the Bench mark and the fund = 21.12% (??)
https://digital.feprecisionplus.com/doc ... 2BB/FSORAD
Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
EthicsGradient wrote:The list of funds is fairly heavily weighted towards the UK (though we don't know if all your funds started off at the same size 20 years ago; if they did, then the weighting won't be so heavy now, because of the poorer performance). That might be a point to consider - UK funds have, over 10 years, not done as well as US ones. There are reasons some have for mainly being in the UK, but it might be worth considering if that's still your point of view.
The -11% one looks like property; this sector has had a particularly rough time. Having one out of 29 funds in property isn't unreasonable (and it's one area that doesn't get covered by standard equity funds, so if you think it's worth having a toe in it, then you just have to decide if those managers are going to do OK in the future).
The funds have been more or less stay the same, unless the funds have been closed and the Fund manages had to buy different funds. Once I understand how to determine whether to sell or keep a fund and what and how to replace them and platform selection I will feel more assured to go ahead (even though I am paying a high fee) and I apprecicate the earlier posts, I really am reluctant to seek an IFA (as that's how I ended up with these funds) and another task to find out an 'excellent' IFA.
I would like to invest in passive funds (even though it will still have fund managers fees and platform fees) at least the costs should be less than AEGON
Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
GoSeigen wrote:Could I point out the bleeding obvious please, which is that the OP should not be making decisions on these funds based on their past performance, but on their future prospects.
And another obvious point which I think has already been made is that a fairly certain factor in their future performance is the level of fees they extract -- that should be the first thing the OP considers.
GS
Appreciate this - what would be useful to look at regarding future prospect (in my mind I was going to look for large, well established diversified funds)
Agere about the fees.
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
MISA wrote:GoSeigen wrote:Could I point out the bleeding obvious please, which is that the OP should not be making decisions on these funds based on their past performance, but on their future prospects.
And another obvious point which I think has already been made is that a fairly certain factor in their future performance is the level of fees they extract -- that should be the first thing the OP considers.
GS
Appreciate this - what would be useful to look at regarding future prospect (in my mind I was going to look for large, well established diversified funds)
Agere about the fees.
I'm not convinced that you want to make it as simple as you suggest here. However IF you really want to make it that simple:
Sell everything and buy F&C. I could be wrong, but think that it's LooseCannon's sole holding.
It's diversified geographically, been around for over 150 years and has been increasing it's dividends for longer than I have lived.
https://www.fandc.com/fandclive/
That said, despite the fact that it's in my portfolio, I regard it as only moderately interesting. I want at least a few more spicy things in my portfolio.
It's not rocket science, unless like me you invest in Seraphim Space Investment Trust, although come to think of it Scottish Mortgage do hold SpaceX.
What of International Biotech? Sorry, just spinning off things that caught my eye and I bought.
Too racy? How about an index tracker like Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF, err got it.
Honestly it's easy. Just decide what your risk tolerance is and balance the mix of what you chose. At the end of the day, I'm not convinced that financially I do better than if I just put the lot in F&C, though I do have more fun doing it.
I DO think that IFA's have a use, but their costs are prohibitive if you only use them to chose investments. Doing it yourself will almost certainly outperform, whatever you chose.
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
MISA wrote:GoSeigen wrote:Could I point out the bleeding obvious please, which is that the OP should not be making decisions on these funds based on their past performance, but on their future prospects.
And another obvious point which I think has already been made is that a fairly certain factor in their future performance is the level of fees they extract -- that should be the first thing the OP considers.
GS
Appreciate this - what would be useful to look at regarding future prospect (in my mind I was going to look for large, well established diversified funds)
Agere about the fees.
Okay, the next "easy win" is to match the duration (sensitivity to yield changes) of your portfolio to match your investment horizon. For example you said that some of your funds were bought twenty years ago, if your investment horizon at that point was 20 years or more then low or medium risk funds were not really appropriate. If you still have a long investment period ahead then it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the bulk of you portfolio in equities. So there are asset allocation considerations.
But what really bothered me about one or two posts was the idea that "Fund X returned only 60% over 20 years, therefore as a dog it should be dumped". That's not how investing works. Yesterday's dog can be tomorrow's champ -- you would do well to consider why a fund did poorly -- was it just a bad period for that particular asset class for example? 2000-2010 was awful for tech stocks. 2000-2020 the FTSE went nowhere. 2006 to 2016 was awful for banks. From 2020 probably into the next decade bonds are likely to be the dogs. A long period (especially 10-20 years) of underperformance is not necessarily a reason to avoid an asset, in fact it may be a very bullish factor.
So that's what I was trying to convey. Many people here are rather defeatist about investing and argue that there's no point "trying to beat the market" to the extent that you shouldn't even care what price you pay for your investment, just buy and forget. My view is different -- that there are numerous ways you can get better value from your capital and it's well worth a bit of thought to try to achieve that. In fact I'd go further than that and say that the market will actually reward hard work and if there's any justice and rationality in the world severely punish laziness.
GS
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
GoSeigen wrote:
So that's what I was trying to convey. Many people here are rather defeatist about investing and argue that there's no point "trying to beat the market" to the extent that you shouldn't even care what price you pay for your investment, just buy and forget. My view is different -- that there are numerous ways you can get better value from your capital and it's well worth a bit of thought to try to achieve that. In fact I'd go further than that and say that the market will actually reward hard work and if there's any justice and rationality in the world severely punish laziness.
GS
Sadly, with much respect for being one of the few to post updates on your own efforts, there doesn't seem to have been much evidence for that "justice and rationality" on these boards. I may have missed it, but I haven't seen a portfolio posted (with subsequent transactions and updates) that has beaten the likes of FCIT (virtually a tracker) or VWRL over any significant period since this site was created.
Fortunately, time just being invested in the market seems to give better long-term returns than savings interest without even having to worry about trying to "beat it". Indeed, unless you are particularly skilled/lucky, it seems to me (from experience!) that trying to significantly beat the market runs a serious danger of poorer than market returns. This would appear to be backed up by the underperformance of the majority of "professional" fund managers.
Call me defeatist if you like, but my investments have given me all the returns I need without any (of what I would call) hard work - sorry...

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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
While I'm upsetting people perhaps I should say what I really think
.
Buying trackers these days is like going to an auction and getting into a bidding war for one of those boxes filled with random crap but with a useful-looking router in there. Then a couple of years later you realise it's mostly worthless and dump it outside the Oxfam shop. The router took two days to set up and never worked properly.
But you're happy because you bought something average in the auction, it was all quick and easy, and you weren't looking for an especially nice item or a bargain anyway.

GS
[EDIT & PS: should just say trackers and ETFs have their place and I trade them to a limited extent, e.g. short S&P500 futures, with options positions on the same, long FTSE, chinese and Japanese ETFs, my caution is with using them as a vehicle for this "passive investing" fad
P.P.S. I guess this is another way of saying that I view their sum as worth less than their parts...]

Buying trackers these days is like going to an auction and getting into a bidding war for one of those boxes filled with random crap but with a useful-looking router in there. Then a couple of years later you realise it's mostly worthless and dump it outside the Oxfam shop. The router took two days to set up and never worked properly.
But you're happy because you bought something average in the auction, it was all quick and easy, and you weren't looking for an especially nice item or a bargain anyway.

GS
[EDIT & PS: should just say trackers and ETFs have their place and I trade them to a limited extent, e.g. short S&P500 futures, with options positions on the same, long FTSE, chinese and Japanese ETFs, my caution is with using them as a vehicle for this "passive investing" fad
P.P.S. I guess this is another way of saying that I view their sum as worth less than their parts...]
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Re: SS ISA expected cumulative percentage after investing for over 10 years +
GoSeigen wrote:While I'm upsetting people perhaps I should say what I really think.
Buying trackers these days is like going to an auction and getting into a bidding war for one of those boxes filled with random crap but with a useful-looking router in there. Then a couple of years later you realise it's mostly worthless and dump it outside the Oxfam shop. The router took two days to set up and never worked properly.
But you're happy because you bought something average in the auction, it was all quick and easy, and you weren't looking for an especially nice item or a bargain anyway.
GS
[EDIT & PS: should just say trackers and ETFs have their place and I trade them to a limited extent, e.g. short S&P500 futures, with options positions on the same, long FTSE, chinese and Japanese ETFs, my caution is with using them as a vehicle for this "passive investing" fad
P.P.S. I guess this is another way of saying that I view their sum as worth less than their parts...]
No upset on my part, I only have about 15% in trackers myself (if you include the likes of physically backed gold ETFs). I was just pointing out that "beating the market" through hard work doesn't appear to be something that anyone here has demonstrably achieved, and that "laziness" can actually produce better results. For instance, looking at your "million challenge" thread, if you had invested the initial sum you reported in 2016 in FCIT or VWRL then you would have had a significantly greater total return at the time of your last reported valuation last November. I agree that it would be nice to think hard work will be rewarded, but outperformance seems quite elusive, even for those with knowledge and skill.
So, I would hesitate to deride those who can achieve respectable results without trying to be clever, and I think it's almost irresponsible to imply they could do better by ditching their current approach and doing some "hard work". I can only speak for myself, but equity investment isn't about shooting the lights for me - a fairly basic and straightforward approach over the past 25 years has made my retirement quite comfortable enough.
CP

P.S. I have a holding of VWRL that has performed a specific role over the past few years, and it certainly isn't being dumped at the charity shop any time soon (but has definitely provided scope for greater donations...).
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