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Inflation

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
1nvest
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Re: Inflation

#334033

Postby 1nvest » August 18th, 2020, 9:04 am

scrumpyjack wrote:Don't overlook the fact that inflation rates will vary between countries. The UK has traditionally been a high inflation country whilst Switzerland has had low inflation. One option therefore is to hold at least some of your wealth in, say, Swiss francs rather than having it in weak sterling. In the longer term currencies will move to reflect differing inflation rates. I recall my great uncle saying that when he was young it was 23 Sw Fr to the pound!

The Swiss franc was tied to gold (still on a gold standard) up until 2000 IIRC, since then it no longer provides the stable currency that being on the gold standard induced.

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Re: Inflation

#334040

Postby richfool » August 18th, 2020, 9:21 am

1nvest wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:Don't overlook the fact that inflation rates will vary between countries. The UK has traditionally been a high inflation country whilst Switzerland has had low inflation. One option therefore is to hold at least some of your wealth in, say, Swiss francs rather than having it in weak sterling. In the longer term currencies will move to reflect differing inflation rates. I recall my great uncle saying that when he was young it was 23 Sw Fr to the pound!

The Swiss franc was tied to gold (still on a gold standard) up until 2000 IIRC, since then it no longer provides the stable currency that being on the gold standard induced.

The Swiss franc would still be my preferred global currency of choice.

I recall the exchange rate being 10 Swiss francs to £1 in 1972 and a coffee in Switzerland cost 1 Swiss franc (10 pence)

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Re: Inflation

#334051

Postby JohnW » August 18th, 2020, 9:57 am

dealtn wrote:So how is that COMPLETE inflation protection then!

If you put money aside now, to spend later, into a fixed term/fixed interest bank (savings) account or into a bond purchase, your purchasing power at the relevant future spending date can be eroded by inflation and/or by the yield that your ‘savings’ is generating being negative (Credit Suisse deposit rate last year I think).
If inflation was zero during that ‘put aside’ period you would know at the beginning exactly what your spending power would be at the end, because you know how much of your savings the bank will repay (less than you deposited!), and with the bond you know exactly how much each coupon payment will be and how much principal will be returned.
But if inflation does occur you won’t know, at the beginning, how much spending power you will have at the end, with the bank deposit. But you will know, at the beginning, with the bond, what the final spending power will be because the bond issuer promises to increase the coupon with inflation and increase the principal (adjusted face value). Have I go that right? Inflation is taken care of; negative yield remains negative.

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Re: Inflation

#334056

Postby dealtn » August 18th, 2020, 10:07 am

JohnW wrote:
dealtn wrote:So how is that COMPLETE inflation protection then!

If you put money aside now, to spend later, into a fixed term/fixed interest bank (savings) account or into a bond purchase, your purchasing power at the relevant future spending date can be eroded by inflation and/or by the yield that your ‘savings’ is generating being negative (Credit Suisse deposit rate last year I think).
If inflation was zero during that ‘put aside’ period you would know at the beginning exactly what your spending power would be at the end, because you know how much of your savings the bank will repay (less than you deposited!), and with the bond you know exactly how much each coupon payment will be and how much principal will be returned.
But if inflation does occur you won’t know, at the beginning, how much spending power you will have at the end, with the bank deposit. But you will know, at the beginning, with the bond, what the final spending power will be because the bond issuer promises to increase the coupon with inflation and increase the principal (adjusted face value). Have I go that right? Inflation is taken care of; negative yield remains negative.


If a 10 linker is priced at 125 and you have £500 for instance you buy £400 face value of them (lets assume the RPI is 100 and the were "just issued" to make the maths so much simpler).

In 10 years time the RPI index is 200, prices having doubled. Your £500 has become £800. The government pays out 200/100 * (face value). So you now have £800 to buy goods that now cost £1,000. You have not preserved purchasing power.

If you want to include coupons you can do so, the maths is (much) more complicated, but you aren't compensated enough unless the coupons are sufficient when combined with the initial purchase price for the bond to have a zero real yield (or higher).

This maths works for all future values of the RPI index in 10 years time. So agreed, you don't know in advance what inflation will look like, and hence what the cash payout will be, but regardless you will lose purchasing power.

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Re: Inflation

#334060

Postby 1nvest » August 18th, 2020, 10:15 am

dealtn wrote:Check out those last 2 columns. That negative yield demonstrates how much purchasing power you are losing annually. If that can't be visualised look at the penultimate column of the price. Those bonds will all pay out at (real) 100, so even holding less than 10 years you are only getting 75% purchasing power, for the longer maturities less than half!

Only guaranteed to cost if held to maturity. If that is the sole intent then you have to blend with other assets such as stocks within this negative rates era (at other times you don't have to mix, as the bond itself can yield positive benefits). But many hold bonds for the insurance they provide against unexpected events/changes. If for instance inflation spiked to 5%, 10%, 20% ... or maybe more, then stocks might be repriced so that they are paying twice or more the dividend yield that they currently pay, and in that repricing the share price might halve or more (whatever). Bonds, both nominal and index linked provide insurance and/or cover against potential losses perhaps in other assets such as stocks. Nominal and index linked insure against different things, index linked for instance is more for a insurance against unexpected inflation, nominal bonds are more a insurance against deflation. That ILG inflation insurance comes at a cost presently, a negative real yield if held to maturity. But where if the insured against event does occur, such as unexpected high inflation, that might protect against some/most/all of losses in other assets value.

If your sole intent is to have a fixed inflation adjusted amount of value in a particular year, say £20,000 in 17 years time, then at current prices/values you have to load more into that bond, £25,000/whatever (haven't bothered run the calculation). If being employed as insurance then you have to assess how much insurance cover you want. If for instance you decide 33% index linked gilts is enough insurance against the rest being in stocks, then a -1.5% ILG cost is -0.5% relative to the total portfolio value. Then if stocks halve, ILG doubles you're still at 100% levels (but having seen the assets transition from 67% stock/33% ILG to being 33 stock/67 ILG).

The Permanent Portfolio choice of insurance level for instance is to hold 25% in each of stocks, gold, short dated gilts, long dated gilts. In effect it opts for gold over holding index linked gilts as spiking inflation cover. Which generally leads to a relatively stable ongoing portfolio value come what may. Or you can ride bareback, perhaps 100% stocks but at the risk that half of more of the value could vanish overnight. Countering that higher risk however is that stocks tend to reward more, so could relatively quickly recoup the loss, could take years, or could have achieved sufficient gains in earlier years that offset the declines/losses. If stocks pull 2x ahead for instance and then halve, in one respect there was no loss mathematically, however many actually mentally lock in paper gains so more often that will feel like a loss.

Yes if your objective was to provide £20,000 inflation adjusted value in 11 years time, another £20,000 in 12 years time ...etc. then at present you have to load in more than £20,000 into each index linked gilt that mature in 11 year, 12 year ...etc. At other times it has cost less to load up on such a ladder, where maybe you only had to load each rung with £15,000 or whatever. In that sense ILG's aren't good value at present, have been much better value in the past. But in other aspects ILG's and conventional bonds still have 'value', such as from a 'insurance' angle. And for unexpected inflation insurance typically the assets are ILG's and/or gold.

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Re: Inflation

#334095

Postby JohnW » August 18th, 2020, 12:24 pm

dealtn wrote:If a 10 linker is priced at 125 and you have £500 for instance you buy £400 face value of them (lets assume the RPI is 100 and the were "just issued" to make the maths so much simpler).

In 10 years time the RPI index is 200, prices having doubled. Your £500 has become £800. The government pays out 200/100 * (face value). So you now have £800 to buy goods that now cost £1,000. You have not preserved purchasing power.

If you want to include coupons you can do so, the maths is (much) more complicated, but you aren't compensated enough unless the coupons are sufficient when combined with the initial purchase price for the bond to have a zero real yield (or higher).

It's not plainly obvious how my explanation might be flawed, or yours, but they seem at odds. Perhaps someone else can untangle that.

If the RPI was still 100 in ten years, ie zero inflation in that time, your example using my £500 to buy linkers will again become £400, because they were issued with a face value of £100 (but I paid £125) and as there’s been no inflation they will be redeemed at £100. That suggests that you lose purchasing power even when there’s no inflation. So the inflation protecting character of the linker, which you described as ‘some’, doesn’t provide ANY protection with inflation at the approximately 7%/year in your example of doubling in ten years. There’s something discordant about that, to me. No one need bother trying to untangle that however.

Returning to you example, if you could have bought a linker at the original time for £100, then the one for £125 would have had a higher coupon, all else being equal. The returns the market would expect for both would be the same if they had the same time to run, I think, which is why they would be priced as described.
The £100 would keep pace with inflation perfectly in terms of spending power at the end, as in your example, but you’d have missed out on better coupons for 10 years. With the £125 linker your spending power at the end is less in your example, but you’ve been compensated with better coupons for ten years. I’m guessing the overall return for the investor is the same in both cases, probably with the proviso that coupons were re-invested at the same real yield. If that’s the case, and the £100 linker has given you purchasing power protection at redemption, then I’d conclude that the £125 linker also does.

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Re: Inflation

#334116

Postby dealtn » August 18th, 2020, 1:29 pm

JohnW wrote:Returning to you example, if you could have bought a linker at the original time for £100, then the one for £125 would have had a higher coupon, all else being equal. The returns the market would expect for both would be the same if they had the same time to run, I think, which is why they would be priced as described.
The £100 would keep pace with inflation perfectly in terms of spending power at the end, as in your example, but you’d have missed out on better coupons for 10 years. With the £125 linker your spending power at the end is less in your example, but you’ve been compensated with better coupons for ten years. I’m guessing the overall return for the investor is the same in both cases, probably with the proviso that coupons were re-invested at the same real yield. If that’s the case, and the £100 linker has given you purchasing power protection at redemption, then I’d conclude that the £125 linker also does.


Yes. If you could have bought it at £100 then it would have done. But you couldn't and can't.

If you married Kate Moss you might have beautiful children. Life is full of "ifs" but in reality we only get to deal with what is actually possible.

Look at the prices available in the real world and you get the real loss of purchasing power. If you want to deal at prices that are only available in a parallel fantasy market then they won't describe the world we all actually live in.

I am genuinely struggling to explain it to you I think. So maybe the alternative is somebody else.

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Re: Inflation

#334143

Postby 1nvest » August 18th, 2020, 3:06 pm

The yield to maturity (YTM) on nominal gilts is a good indicator of the gain/loss you'll achieve if bought and held to maturity. Is not the YTM on index linked gilts a good indicator of the real (after inflation) gain/loss you'll achieve if bought and held to maturity? If so, if inflation does rage, perhaps with nominal gilts and stocks all seeing higher yields/dividends (much lower prices), lagging raging inflation by a couple of percent or so could feel like a great outcome. If inflation doesn't rage, then holding some stocks alongside would likely offset that 'insurance' cost.

Looking at the difference for US data 50/50 stock/inflation bonds (TIPS) compared to 50/50 stock/conventional bonds (10 year Treasury) and over the last 20 years or so the difference is just noise (negligible).

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Re: Inflation

#334152

Postby Stonge » August 18th, 2020, 3:57 pm

mc2fool wrote:
"Her Majesty’s government has a special deal right now. Give the Treasury £100 and in 30 years’ time you will receive £64.36 back, allowing for inflation. Investors can’t get enough of it.

This may sound like a bad joke, but it isn’t. The product in question is the 30-year inflation-linked gilt, whose real yield is currently -1.46% (see graph). If you 'invest' in it, you will lose 1.46% of the real value of your investment every year.
" https://www.cii.co.uk/learning/learning ... elds/72691

That article was almost a year ago. The current state of play for them in the secondary market is even worse. https://www.fixedincomeinvestor.co.uk/x ... oupid=3530


Thanks for explaining this, I wondered if this was an annual loss or a loss over the period. So in 10 years time, whatever happens to inflation, you'd be guaranteed to get back 0.9854^10 (i.e. 85%) of your original investment even if inflation hit 20% pa in some years.

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Re: Inflation

#334155

Postby dealtn » August 18th, 2020, 4:03 pm

1nvest wrote: If so, if inflation does rage, perhaps with nominal gilts and stocks all seeing higher yields/dividends (much lower prices), lagging raging inflation by a couple of percent or so could feel like a great outcome.


Shares "might" be up 100% if inflation leads to a doubling in general prices. Some shares might do even better (some no doubt worse). Good examples could be those that have better pricing power, those that have leverage, those that have pension deficits (particularly those that are inflation hedged), those such as banks that suffer from low interest rates.

You are still in the position of having to work out which would be the relative winners from an asset allocation process, but that 70% linker inflation protection "insurance" could still look a poor choice post an inflation event. That's not an insurance policy as I would recognise it.

Buying linkers (and holding to maturity) is being satisfied with a certain loss as a trade off against an uncertain gain/loss. Some will be happy with that certainty (in fact most presumably else why would they be priced where they are?). What I fear is that some investors aren't even aware of that certain loss, assuming they will be fully protected from inflation as "that's what linkers do". As a result they aren't comparing the right trade off, but an unobtainable one.

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Re: Inflation

#334159

Postby dealtn » August 18th, 2020, 4:09 pm

Stonge wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
"Her Majesty’s government has a special deal right now. Give the Treasury £100 and in 30 years’ time you will receive £64.36 back, allowing for inflation. Investors can’t get enough of it.

This may sound like a bad joke, but it isn’t. The product in question is the 30-year inflation-linked gilt, whose real yield is currently -1.46% (see graph). If you 'invest' in it, you will lose 1.46% of the real value of your investment every year.
" https://www.cii.co.uk/learning/learning ... elds/72691

That article was almost a year ago. The current state of play for them in the secondary market is even worse. https://www.fixedincomeinvestor.co.uk/x ... oupid=3530


Thanks for explaining this, I wondered if this was an annual loss or a loss over the period. So in 10 years time, whatever happens to inflation, you'd be guaranteed to get back 0.9854^10 (i.e. 85%) of your original investment even if inflation hit 20% pa in some years.


No.

You would (in effect) get back 85% of the purchasing power of your investment (assuming RPI is an appropriate measure) assuming you had invested in a 10 year index-linked gilt. (In fact the figures are even worse now - it's an old article).

So, using your example, if you invested £100,000 and prices (RPI index) doubled (which might happen if inflation ran at 20% some years), then that £100,000 would be equivalent to £200,000, but you would get back £170,000. (In practice it's not quite like that as it depends on reinvestment etc. but that's the broad effect).

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Re: Inflation

#334165

Postby 1nvest » August 18th, 2020, 4:29 pm

Negative real yields have been much larger in the past.

UK all-stock investor at the start of 1973 who reinvested dividends costlessly (taxes were also high even for basic rate taxpayers back then, as were brokers fees and market makers spreads), at the end of 1975 could have received back 27p on the £1 in inflation adjusted terms.

Many who might have had the equivalent of £500,000 retirement pots in whatever 1973 inflation adjusted terms that might have been, in anticipation of that providing perhaps a £20,000/year retirement pension (4% income), on seeing that pot drop to £135,000 after just a couple of years and assuming no income was being drawn, opted to bail out and "save what little of their lifetime savings remained".

And that's for the best mechanical method, the 'market average' stock index, that outpaces most investors in practice after costs/taxes and in not following that optimal mechanical method.

'Useless' short dated gilts (there were no index linked gilts back then) that were doomed to lose money in real terms (were paying negative real yields) lost of the order -5% to -15% real in total over those two years.

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Re: Inflation

#334171

Postby dealtn » August 18th, 2020, 4:47 pm

1nvest wrote:Negative real yields have been much larger in the past.

UK all-stock investor at the start of 1973 who reinvested dividends costlessly (taxes were also high even for basic rate taxpayers back then, as were brokers fees and market makers spreads), at the end of 1975 could have received back 27p on the £1 in inflation adjusted terms.

Many who might have had the equivalent of £500,000 retirement pots in whatever 1973 inflation adjusted terms that might have been, in anticipation of that providing perhaps a £20,000/year retirement pension (4% income), on seeing that pot drop to £135,000 after just a couple of years and assuming no income was being drawn, opted to bail out and "save what little of their lifetime savings remained".

And that's for the best mechanical method, the 'market average' stock index, that outpaces most investors in practice after costs/taxes and in not following that optimal mechanical method.

'Useless' short dated gilts (there were no index linked gilts back then) that were doomed to lose money in real terms (were paying negative real yields) lost of the order -5% to -15% real in total over those two years.


Many might have done, many might not have done that, many might have gone on to much greater real wealth. Predicting which asset classes do what before any event is close to impossible. As I have said it is a trade off of certainty, against the price of that certainty, and up to individuals to assess that decision. Many don't realise what that price of certainty is.

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Re: Inflation

#334175

Postby tjh290633 » August 18th, 2020, 5:01 pm

1nvest wrote:Negative real yields have been much larger in the past.

UK all-stock investor at the start of 1973 who reinvested dividends costlessly (taxes were also high even for basic rate taxpayers back then, as were brokers fees and market makers spreads), at the end of 1975 could have received back 27p on the £1 in inflation adjusted terms.

Many who might have had the equivalent of £500,000 retirement pots in whatever 1973 inflation adjusted terms that might have been, in anticipation of that providing perhaps a £20,000/year retirement pension (4% income), on seeing that pot drop to £135,000 after just a couple of years and assuming no income was being drawn, opted to bail out and "save what little of their lifetime savings remained".

And that's for the best mechanical method, the 'market average' stock index, that outpaces most investors in practice after costs/taxes and in not following that optimal mechanical method.

'Useless' short dated gilts (there were no index linked gilts back then) that were doomed to lose money in real terms (were paying negative real yields) lost of the order -5% to -15% real in total over those two years.

I have just looked at my records for that period.

.   Change from Previous Year                    
. Cost @ Value @ Income
. 31 Dec 31 Dec

Dec-71
Dec-72 -7.25% 8.60% -17.07%
Dec-73 7.25% -20.60% 1.17%
Dec-74 -1.06% -36.61% 24.81%
Dec-75 23.15% 118.96% 3.00%
Dec-76 5.72% 3.00% 22.35%
Dec-77 -32.06% -10.48% 16.57%
Dec-78 8.56% 15.72% -24.94%
Dec-79 11.82% 10.45% 27.23%
Dec-80 23.92% 34.35% 27.17%

You may notice that, although there were losses of 20% and 36% in 1973 and 1974, there was a rise of 119% in 1975. Income kept increasing, exept in 1978 when I bought our present house, using some funds for the deposit. That is reefelcted in teh reduction in "Cost" the previous year.

It was one of those "Interesting times".

TJH

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Re: Inflation

#334199

Postby 1nvest » August 18th, 2020, 7:09 pm

tjh290633 wrote:I have just looked at my records for that period.

.   Change from Previous Year                    
. Cost @ Value @ Income
. 31 Dec 31 Dec

Dec-71
Dec-72 -7.25% 8.60% -17.07%
Dec-73 7.25% -20.60% 1.17%
Dec-74 -1.06% -36.61% 24.81%
Dec-75 23.15% 118.96% 3.00%
Dec-76 5.72% 3.00% 22.35%
Dec-77 -32.06% -10.48% 16.57%
Dec-78 8.56% 15.72% -24.94%
Dec-79 11.82% 10.45% 27.23%
Dec-80 23.92% 34.35% 27.17%

You may notice that, although there were losses of 20% and 36% in 1973 and 1974, there was a rise of 119% in 1975. Income kept increasing, exept in 1978 when I bought our present house, using some funds for the deposit. That is reefelcted in teh reduction in "Cost" the previous year.

It was one of those "Interesting times".

TJH

Thanks Terry.

Barclays equity gilt study concurs that whilst prices dropped a lot, income did hold up much better

Image

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Re: Inflation

#334209

Postby 1nvest » August 18th, 2020, 8:25 pm

Similar data, div yield, price index, change in price index, income index, change in income index respective columns (all for real/after-inflation) ...

Image

and looking like historic -75% declines in price (112 down to 29) and -82% decline in income (79 down to 14) can (has) occurred over the last century or so. Again however subsequent years saw reasonably strong rebounds, so I guess a case of having the stomach and reserves to ride out those 'dips'. Much easier to 'do' with hindsight.

It's also only reasonable to say that other asset allocations could have sustained similar 'dives' (pain). A case of similar worst case outcomes, but lower average and best case outcomes. Some opt for all-stock even in retirement for that type of reasoning. For instance looking at Gilts and a similar 17 from 87 (-80%) has historically occurred over/around a similar period.

If over historic bad periods you're looking at dips/recovery over a bad 20 year period that ends up at break even in real terms on a zero-costs, income reinvested basis for most asset allocations then if you're in retirement and relying upon portfolio 'income' no matter how that might be generated, then most ways could lead to sorrow. The best way to reduce that risk that I've found is the Talmud asset allocation. For one that includes your home value as part of the portfolio (third each land (home), stocks, reserves), so for instance if you were looking for a 4% SWR on say £666K of liquid assets, then under the Talmud that includes home value of £333K the same income is provided by a 2.7% SWR relative to £1M portfolio value, and reducing SWR is one way to significantly reduce risk. It also diversifies away from a pure CPI inflation rate, for instance instead of 'inflation' being all CPI (or RPI), its reasonable to revise its inflation rate to being one third house price inflation, two thirds CPI. If you form the Talmud asset allocation as one third UK house price (£), one third US Stocks (US$ primary reserve currency) and one third gold (global currency, and a commodity) then that also diversifies currency risk, and assets (land, stocks, commodity). Such diversity tends to further reduce risk. It's reasonable to include some UK equity as part of the 'home' (land) component for liquidity purposes (use liquid UK stock as a proxy for some home value). A sideline benefit of the measures I've made is that I excluded imputed rent benefit, where historically average rental yields have been north of 4%. If you factor in that you'd have to find/pay rent in the absence of owning a home, then if the home value is a third of total portfolio value its of the order of a 1.4% weighted benefit (in effect uplifts a 2.7% SWR to 4%).

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Re: Inflation

#334229

Postby tjh290633 » August 18th, 2020, 11:04 pm

As you know, I'm not a believer in asset allocation models. My personal situation is that we have a house, which is paid for, I have three pensions (state, and 2 occupational) which escalate in different ways, a portfolio of shares and a modest cash holding. I can't easily put a value on the pensions, as only one of them arose from an annuity purchase. Property valuation is only tentative, because of the lack of local yardsticks. It is currently about 50/50 equities and property, plus about 6% cash. Last year the income from dividends and pensions was comparable, in the ratio of 41/59, so the pensions (which equate to fixed interest) are a little more than one third, if one assumes that the yields from the underlying assets are similar.

In the current year, it looks probable that the income from equities may be only 2/3rds of the previous years. For me, that is no hardship.

TJH

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Re: Inflation

#334250

Postby JohnW » August 19th, 2020, 3:23 am

dealtn wrote:Look at the prices available in the real world and you get the real loss of purchasing power.....
I am genuinely struggling to explain it to you I think. So maybe the alternative is somebody else.

But you’ve been patient and succeeded; it’s been rewarding.
The matter hinges on using ‘purchasing power’ as an illustration of the effect of ‘inflation’. To help people understand inflation folk often talk about purchasing power, along the lines you did:
dealtn wrote:With people looking for inflation protection, but generally meaning preserving purchasing power, linkers aren't sufficient in doing that,

You remind readers, quite informatively, that even with linkers held to maturity their purchasing power can be eroded over time unless their real yield is at least zero, but you sometimes express that as linkers lacking inflation protection. Here are some examples:

dealtn wrote:
Parky wrote:Parky wrote:
I don't know about taking advantage, but Index Linked Government Bonds should protect you against inflation.

Only if you can buy them at par (or close perhaps since they generally pay 0.125% coupon).
You are far from alone in believing this though.

dealtn wrote:Many have the opinion that buying linkers gives you complete inflation protection.

dealtn wrote:
JohnW wrote:... inflation linked government bonds, but their return and capital is protected against inflation.

And in that single sentence you demonstrate (and aren't alone as many others do too) a falsehood.
Inflation linked bonds do not provide such protection from inflation!

dealtn wrote:Inflation linked bonds do not provide such protection from inflation!

You do however go on to explain that the purchasing power loss is related to the negative real yield, and you distinguish this from inflation effects; although at times it feels like pulling teeth.
dealtn wrote:If you want to include coupons .... you aren't compensated enough unless the bond ..(has).. a zero real yield (or higher).

dealtn wrote:
Parky wrote:I don't know about taking advantage, but Index Linked Government Bonds should protect you against inflation.

Only if you can buy them at par (or close perhaps since they generally pay 0.125% coupon).

dealtn wrote:Check out those last 2 columns. That negative yield demonstrates how much purchasing power you are losing annually

dealtn wrote:So what I am really saying when I say low, or unattractive, indeed negative real yield, is a guaranteed loss of (real) capital, assuming held to maturity

dealtn wrote:At current market prices you are spending £2 to get £1, for instance. Now that £1 might have inflation protection, and the income generated will also rise with inflation, but be under no illusion you are protecting the real value of your Capital. You are protecting from inflation an investment that halves your Capital.

And thus 'inflation' and 'purchasing power' are put into perspective:
dealtn wrote:If you pay more than par for them, which is your only choice at present, your "real" capital will not be fully returned, and your purchasing power will diminish.
…..You are protecting from inflation an investment that halves your Capital.

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Re: Inflation

#334272

Postby Steveam » August 19th, 2020, 8:33 am

TJH wrote: “I can't easily put a value on the pensions, as only one of them arose from an annuity purchase.”

I use a multiplier of the annual payment to put a capital value on the pensions. I don’t have much by way of pensions in payment but have a large SIPP (I took the PCLS some years ago) which continues to grow. Although there are arguments against this I bought an extra £25 per week state pension and continue to defer taking payment of the state pension as it increases at 10.4% helping me build my inflation proofed income. (I think discussion of the benefits or otherwise of deferring the state pension should be on another thread if anyone wants to discuss this. It’s a complex issue and I’m well aware of John Kay’s modelling and analysis).

So, I receive a small inflation proofed pension each year and add what I would receive (but defer from the state) and multiply by 25 for the capital value. 25 is historic and I really should look at this number but this whole part of my spreadsheet is a small and obscure byway which might become more significant if inflation kicks off.

Best wishes,

Steve

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Re: Inflation

#334273

Postby dealtn » August 19th, 2020, 8:41 am

G3lc wrote:Resulting from printing money, and even with the forecast high unemployment and falling wages. some say we are heading for general inflation.

With the poor employment outlook do you think general inflation is likely in the next say 2 years, and if so what specific investment strategies are most likely to show the best return?



Latest numbers. Higher than expected.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53831815


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