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Quick thinking

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
GoSeigen
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Re: Quick thinking

#385261

Postby GoSeigen » February 9th, 2021, 9:35 pm

Thank you everyone for answering what was quite a cryptic post. It is not far from the scenario that faced me last Friday.

For fourteen years I have been managing my elderly mother's investment portfolio on her behalf/as her agent. She sometimes wants to withdraw cash, usually a few thousand but it has been larger sums when doing work on her house etc. Most of those 14 years I have run the portfolio with a large allocation of gilts and other fixed interest, but in the past couple of years with bond maturities, withdrawals and my increasingly bullish view of UK and emerging equity and growing cash-scepticism the allocation is largely shares and a few preference shares and thinly-traded fixed income securities.

On Friday my mother announces to me out of the blue and without any rationale that she wants £xxx amounting to 30% of the funds I manage transferred to her bank account immediately. I suspect she is going through a rough patch and has made a rash decision based on, well, who knows what...? So I agreed to start this process but will be putting to her that maybe the sales should be more gradual. [EDIT: Mother indicated that the cash would go into a fixed-term bond. The return from my management over the 14 years has been almost 12% CAGR. Maybe she has another motive...]


However it did make me think. I considered what I'd do if I were to literally raise the cash there and then and to be honest I didn't have a clue. I wondered how many people would suggest something like this:

RockRabbit wrote:Anyway, I cheat by retaining an overweight cash/liquid asset weighting to avoid this situation :)


because in the past I have managed the portfolio more or less in that way -- and raising the required amount from the gilts and liquid fixed interest we held would not have been difficult, with only the disadvantage of leaving the remaining portfolio temporarily overweight equities.

Not having the buffer has made it psychologically quite difficult to decide what to do: the fixed interest currently held is illiquid with large spreads and difficult to buy in the market, so one doesn't want to take the big hit on the spread. OTOH I consider practically all the shares/equity to be in the middle or near the bottom of their price range and close to their target weight, else I'd not have bought them or would already have reduced exposure. And I am more bullish equities than I've been for a long time. Also there are about 30 holdings so I don't really want to reduce them all by a small amount.

It made me think of the occasional examples where this happens to professional fund managers: where a large proportion of their investors demand their positions to urgently be liquidated. What are their options? ISTM they have similar difficulties, the main difference being that all the cost in my case falls on my mother who is the one asking for the cash, whereas the fund manager is also looking after his other investors whose unit prices might be cratered by a sudden liquidation. Very often, they seem to lock the fund, prohibiting further withdrawals to allow an orderly liquidation. I guess that is what I will be doing when I ask my mother to reconsider how quickly she needs these funds.

A very common suggestion from posters on this thread was to sell the losers. Could I ask whether this is driven mostly by the wish to avoid CGT or is it thought that there is a link between losers and the future returns on those shares? If it's the former I should make clear that all my mother's funds are in an ISA so the only tax implication is loss of ISA status; i.e. there's no CGT to pay.

It would be nice to hear from one or two sell-the-losers advocates who think it will improve future performance. In recent years I have tried to be disciplined about not adding to losing positions until prices are far better (lower) than the initial buy price, or till prices have steadied and are rising again, so I am sympathetic to a sell-losers philosophy. Does it actually work though, and well enough to rely on it in these circumstances?

Others suggested selling the lowest yielding shares. Again, I'm sympathetic but it's difficult to apply to this portfolio, with many non-payers and with my preference for considering all returns including present vs prospective market values in my investing decisions. A classic example is a fixed interest security which is currently in default but may resume payments in a few years and whose value would therefore rise significantly dispite the current zero yield. However I can see how this criterion works for other Fools' portfolios.

In considering all this it made me wonder whether, by not holding a larger proportion of cash and fixed interest, I had missed an important benefit of doing so? Is the risk of needing a large wad of cash in a hurry sufficient justification for permanently holding a large proportion of cash-like assets? Or have been hit by a fairly rare event which doesn't warrant forward planning?

I'm also wondering if I should rethink my own portfolio which is dominated by shares now and even leveraged long and accelerate the cash raising which I'd intended to do more gradually.

GS

tjh290633
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Re: Quick thinking

#385279

Postby tjh290633 » February 9th, 2021, 11:28 pm

I think I would ask a bit more about the "fixed-term bond". Make sure that she is not investing in one of these dodgy so-called bonds.

TJH

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Re: Quick thinking

#385283

Postby Dod101 » February 9th, 2021, 11:53 pm

I thought that I had responded but cannot now find my post. I would almost certainly sell my unprotected investments first. As SalvorHardin has said, once you sell from an ISA you cannot put it back and the same applies at my age for a SIPP. As it happens, I have about 30% of my investment portfolio still in certificates and I guess these would have to go. If that included some good shares (which as far as I am concerned they do), then I would have to reorganise my remaining portfolio.

I am pleasantly surprised to see that I have about 4 years spending held in Index Linked N S & I Bonds. Nowadays we can find the current value online. If I just leave them alone and let them roll over even for no more than say 5 years, it is surprising to me at least the magic of compounding the income, however modest it is. That could I guess be part of the 30% realisation.

I do not understand the 'sell the lowest yielders' philosophy. Often these are the better long term total return shares. I used to be fixated on income/dividends as well (I live off my investment income) but in the last few years, I am not so sure. Total return is fundamentally what matters. If you followed that advice, you would be left with the likes of the tobaccos, pharmas and miners. You would be selling tech shares and a lot of long term growth shares. Is that really what you want?

Dod

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Re: Quick thinking

#385345

Postby tjh290633 » February 10th, 2021, 10:34 am

Dod101 wrote:I do not understand the 'sell the lowest yielders' philosophy.

It is the reason why they are the lowest yielders. They were all reasonably high yielders before the current problems. They are no longer, therefore they are the best candidates for selling.

The alternative is to sell the highest flyers, which could well be the ones that you are advocating with the total rewturn ethos.

TJH

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Re: Quick thinking

#385355

Postby Dod101 » February 10th, 2021, 10:52 am

tjh290633 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I do not understand the 'sell the lowest yielders' philosophy.

It is the reason why they are the lowest yielders. They were all reasonably high yielders before the current problems. They are no longer, therefore they are the best candidates for selling.

The alternative is to sell the highest flyers, which could well be the ones that you are advocating with the total rewturn ethos.

TJH


This is not the HYP Board so I do not think that your comments are valid. For instance, Diageo, Unilever and the like were never high yielders. In fact their yield has not changed much since the 'current problems'. It cannot be a general rule for everyone simply to sell the lowest yielders which is why I do not understand anyone advocating that.

As I said, if in an emergency then sell the unprotected shares first. You may get a CGT bill but that is for later.

Dod

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Re: Quick thinking

#385362

Postby tjh290633 » February 10th, 2021, 11:05 am

Dod101 wrote:This is not the HYP Board so I do not think that your comments are valid. For instance, Diageo, Unilever and the like were never high yielders. In fact their yield has not changed much since the 'current problems'. It cannot be a general rule for everyone simply to sell the lowest yielders which is why I do not understand anyone advocating that.

As I said, if in an emergency then sell the unprotected shares first. You may get a CGT bill but that is for later.

Dod

They were yielding above the market when I first bought them. DGE in May 2009 were at 4.4%, while ULVR in February 2010 were at 3.7%. The current FTSE100 yield, according to the FT's "World Markets at a Glance" is 3.51%, so ULVR is still above it.

I do not have any unprotected shares, so I do not disagree with that suggestion. However, if switching to another investment, which appears to be the case here, then do it inside the ISA if the proposed new medium is an eligible security. If it is not, then why not? My feeling is that the OP's mother may be falling into a trap, which abound.

TJH

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Re: Quick thinking

#385367

Postby GoSeigen » February 10th, 2021, 11:16 am

tjh290633 wrote:I think I would ask a bit more about the "fixed-term bond". Make sure that she is not investing in one of these dodgy so-called bonds.

TJH


I think she was referring to one issued by a mainstream bank. More commonly known as a term account? Or is there a distinction I've missed?

GS

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Re: Quick thinking

#385368

Postby Padders72 » February 10th, 2021, 11:18 am

A couple of unpalatable things which need saying but will likely might make me look callous, I post these rhetorically and don't expect an answer but are worthy of consideration:

1) Is your mother absolutely of sound mind at present?

2) Is her trust in you absolute or have you had a row or other disagreement that means she may acting on a short term impulse, perhaps in a gesture to re-assert her independence?

3) As already noted above are you certain she isn't falling for a scam? Is she certain?

Absolutely no offence intended.
Last edited by Padders72 on February 10th, 2021, 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

GoSeigen
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Re: Quick thinking

#385369

Postby GoSeigen » February 10th, 2021, 11:19 am

Dod101 wrote:I thought that I had responded but cannot now find my post. I would almost certainly sell my unprotected investments first. As SalvorHardin has said, once you sell from an ISA you cannot put it back and the same applies at my age for a SIPP. As it happens, I have about 30% of my investment portfolio still in certificates and I guess these would have to go. If that included some good shares (which as far as I am concerned they do), then I would have to reorganise my remaining portfolio.

I am pleasantly surprised to see that I have about 4 years spending held in Index Linked N S & I Bonds. Nowadays we can find the current value online. If I just leave them alone and let them roll over even for no more than say 5 years, it is surprising to me at least the magic of compounding the income, however modest it is. That could I guess be part of the 30% realisation.

I do not understand the 'sell the lowest yielders' philosophy. Often these are the better long term total return shares. I used to be fixated on income/dividends as well (I live off my investment income) but in the last few years, I am not so sure. Total return is fundamentally what matters. If you followed that advice, you would be left with the likes of the tobaccos, pharmas and miners. You would be selling tech shares and a lot of long term growth shares. Is that really what you want?

Dod


Some good points there Dod, thanks and I also noticed your post went AWOL. Sadly I am a fool and sold all our tech shares ages ago so no hope of sunlit uplands there...

GS

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Re: Quick thinking

#385373

Postby GoSeigen » February 10th, 2021, 11:23 am

Padders72 wrote:A couple of unpalatable things which need saying but will likely might make me look callous, I post these rhetorically and don't expect an answer but are worthy of consideration:

1) Is your mother absolutely of sound mind at present?

2) Is her trust in you absolute or have you had a row or other short term argument that means she may acting on a short term impulse, perhaps in a gesture to re-assert her independence?

3) As already noted above are you certain she isn't falling for a scam? Is she certain?

Absolutely no offence intended.


Absolutely no offence taken. All three went though my mind too.

I've asked her about no. 3 already. It was the first thing that occurred to me because she'd abruptly asked for a couple of thousand near the end of last year. But she is adamant no-one else has asked her for money.

I need to assess 1 and 2 in another conversation with her. Unfortunately I can't give a definitive answer on either, though she has been happy with things for 14 years, the main complaint she's had recently is that we have moved abroad and she has the feeling her investments have "moved abroad" too, though they are exactly where they were when we left the UK...

GS

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Re: Quick thinking

#385377

Postby GoSeigen » February 10th, 2021, 11:28 am

Dod101 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I do not understand the 'sell the lowest yielders' philosophy.

It is the reason why they are the lowest yielders. They were all reasonably high yielders before the current problems. They are no longer, therefore they are the best candidates for selling.

The alternative is to sell the highest flyers, which could well be the ones that you are advocating with the total rewturn ethos.

TJH


This is not the HYP Board so I do not think that your comments are valid. For instance, Diageo, Unilever and the like were never high yielders. In fact their yield has not changed much since the 'current problems'. It cannot be a general rule for everyone simply to sell the lowest yielders which is why I do not understand anyone advocating that.

Dod


To be fair I think TJH interpreted my OP the way I intended: to think about the problem in terms of one's own portfolio and strategy. It was interesting to me to see how many Fools would take a large liquidation in their stride and how they would handle it. In my case I was a bit wrong-footed and felt perhaps I'd gone wrong recently, and so I value the little reality check here.

GS

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Re: Quick thinking

#385384

Postby Dod101 » February 10th, 2021, 11:58 am

tjh290633 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:This is not the HYP Board so I do not think that your comments are valid. For instance, Diageo, Unilever and the like were never high yielders. In fact their yield has not changed much since the 'current problems'. It cannot be a general rule for everyone simply to sell the lowest yielders which is why I do not understand anyone advocating that.

As I said, if in an emergency then sell the unprotected shares first. You may get a CGT bill but that is for later.

Dod

They were yielding above the market when I first bought them. DGE in May 2009 were at 4.4%, while ULVR in February 2010 were at 3.7%. The current FTSE100 yield, according to the FT's "World Markets at a Glance" is 3.51%, so ULVR is still above it.

I do not have any unprotected shares, so I do not disagree with that suggestion. However, if switching to another investment, which appears to be the case here, then do it inside the ISA if the proposed new medium is an eligible security. If it is not, then why not? My feeling is that the OP's mother may be falling into a trap, which abound.

TJH


Yes re the possible trap, but that was not the question was it?

Dod


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