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How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
hiriskpaul
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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406295

Postby hiriskpaul » April 22nd, 2021, 7:55 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:
My initial reaction to "How would you invest for income.." has long been "I don't, I invest for total return".

However, it has suddenly dawned on me that this is not true. The majority of our income now comes from our investments, so I am investing for income!

That income is taken from the cash we have on deposit, which is topped up from interest, dividends and the occasional disposal of investments.


Isn't that fairly close to how we might expect an income-IT manager to work - to help provide that final running-yield from the overall income-IT portfolio?

I fully accept that you might be doing it yourself and missing out on paying some sort of management fee for an IT to do it for you, but in the round, is your approach that far away from a collective that regularly and reliably pumps out cash in the form of an overall IT dividend?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Not really. I keep a large amount of instant access cash as I need it for variation margin on my option trades. I don't specifically target the removal of precise annual amounts from the portfolio for spending. If I have too much cash I might invest some of it. Not enough I might sell some investments. If we have a major expenditure coming up, eg a new bathroom last year, I need to find cash from somewhere to pay for it.

Our spending can vary significantly from month to month and year to year so arranging for some fixed regular amount to turn up would not be particularly useful or efficient.

I have been keeping track of our actual spending over the last year to try to work out what we actually need to live comfortably and to check whether actual spending is inline with our budget guestimates. All made so much easier to follow where money goes now we have stopped using cash. To give an example of the variability, in the first 3 months of this year we spent (really spent as opposed to just moved money around) £6,604.53 in January, £3,814.02 in February and £10,375.84 in March. March was high as my wife spent £3,345.00 on a dental implant, £1,595.00 on a carpet and £1,000.00 as a holiday deposit. What use regular income?

For people used to running their finances around regular monthly salary in and regular payments out I can understand the appeal of having regular amounts coming in, but we have not lived like that for many years.

Itsallaguess
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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406304

Postby Itsallaguess » April 22nd, 2021, 8:19 pm

hiriskpaul wrote:
Our spending can vary significantly from month to month and year to year so arranging for some fixed regular amount to turn up would not be particularly useful or efficient.

I have been keeping track of our actual spending over the last year to try to work out what we actually need to live comfortably and to check whether actual spending is inline with our budget guestimates. All made so much easier to follow where money goes now we have stopped using cash. To give an example of the variability, in the first 3 months of this year we spent (really spent as opposed to just moved money around) £6,604.53 in January, £3,814.02 in February and £10,375.84 in March. March was high as my wife spent £3,345.00 on a dental implant, £1,595.00 on a carpet and £1,000.00 as a holiday deposit. What use regular income?

For people used to running their finances around regular monthly salary in and regular payments out I can understand the appeal of having regular amounts coming in, but we have not lived like that for many years.


Thanks for that - and I think it neatly encapsulates what dealtn was suggesting earlier - 'My bigger concern is that [the OP] is unlikely to resemble any of "us", so might have difficulty in translating our answers'...

Like many of these types of discussions, it feels like the really important drivers often aren't even being discussed - and 'personal views' are being put forward, often with little opportunity to better understand some of the highly influential reasoning behind them...

I'm glad you wrote the above, and I'm also glad that you finished with that final sentence - I have lived like that for many years, and I'm sure there are many other readers here in a similar situation, and so it's nice to gain a glimpse of some common ground over this issue, where personal situations might influence just which investment-routes we're all taking as individuals, and perhaps even start to shine a light as to why....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406308

Postby murraypaul » April 22nd, 2021, 8:28 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:Of course, if 'total-return performance' might be the 'MPG' of the investment world, then that's of course absolutely fine, but I think there should be less 'direct criticism' aimed towards those of us who might be quite willing, a bit like those 'comfort-over-performance' drivers, perhaps, to trade away some 'pure-performance metrics' in return for other non-performance aspects of our long-term investments that we might place some importance on over trying to squeeze the top-end MPG out of that often-hallowed 'total-return' metric...


I very much agree.
I'm fine with giving up some potential return in order to be invested in things that I'm more comfortable with, and I'm not going to worry about.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406607

Postby TUK020 » April 24th, 2021, 9:05 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:


It sure is! This chart has been update to the end of Q1 but it looks a little different to the previous one for another reason: I've started the Y axis at "0" as suggested by Gengulphus.

Image


Thanks Arb - and again, I hope that pink income-IT portfolio line is useful to the OP if he chooses to perhaps head down a more 'managed' income-portfolio route....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

It's a very powerful indicator indeed and I am very grateful for it being shared with us. There's no single answer to the question and I have a portfolio of both growth and income collective investments plus a small-ish basket of single company shares. My aim is for total return overall, but as someone already said, money is fully fungible. So it doesn't really matter too much whether you spend growth money or income money. It's all the same.

RVF


I am afraid that I have a bit of a problem with this chart. It is misleading. Less so visually, now that the 'y' axis starts at zero. However, the 'y' isn't defined.
I believe it is normalised income, and thus the graph shows trends in income, but not absolute income from a fixed investment level.

On an absolute income from a fixed investment level, the HYP portfolio would start with a higher income than the IT basket. Admittedly, to 'de-risk' this, you would need to hold some HYP income in reserve, and then you would get something that looks more like the IT basket, but all of that is glossed over in a chart with no 'y' axis defined.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406610

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » April 24th, 2021, 9:28 am

Putting it into perspective


One dollar invested in this company in 1968 was worth $6,638 yesterday (including dividends). That’s an annual return of 20.6% per year for nearly half a century. No other company comes close to matching its long-term results, according to Wharton professor Jeremy Siegel. The same dollar invested in the S&P 500 over the same period would be worth $87, or 98% less.”


http://www.adventurousinvestor.com/2560 ... i-listings

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406611

Postby Itsallaguess » April 24th, 2021, 9:38 am

TUK020 wrote:
I am afraid that I have a bit of a problem with this chart -

Image

It is misleading. Less so visually, now that the 'y' axis starts at zero. However, the 'y' isn't defined.

I believe it is normalised income, and thus the graph shows trends in income, but not absolute income from a fixed investment level.

On an absolute income from a fixed investment level, the HYP portfolio would start with a higher income than the IT basket.

Admittedly, to 'de-risk' this, you would need to hold some HYP income in reserve, and then you would get something that looks more like the IT basket, but all of that is glossed over in a chart with no 'y' axis defined.


I think that's a fair point, and one that helps to be teased out in these types of discussions, although use of the word 'misleading' feels a bit harsh, given the broader usefulness of the chart data for the types of discussions it helps to generate.

'Would benefit from some additional detail' might be a better description, perhaps....

Interesting as well to see you use the phrase 'glossed over' here as well, because I got the same feeling when I read your statement that 'admittedly, to 'de-risk' this [higher HYP income], you would need to hold some HYP income in reserve', as though such a simple instruction isn't ultimately a 'gloss-over' of some sort all on it's own anyway...

It's certain that there's no silver-bullet when it comes to investing, and often it's simply a case of finding somewhere on the very broad middle-ground that suits us temperamentally as individual investors, and I still come back to Arb's pink IT-portfolio chart-line (updated above) time after time, and just think - if I'd seen that data 20 years ago, and if the initial IT-portfolio income would be acceptable enough to me (let's never forget that we all have different expectations and 'needs' in that specific area, that then drives many downstream investment decisions, ultimately...), then the long term general rise and the long term general reliability of that 'one-stop-shop' of purchasing a broad range of diversified income-Investment-Trusts would have been where I'd started out on my investment journey, rather than where I've generally ended up, and boy, what a lot of heart-ache that start would have helped to avoid....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406644

Postby 1nvest » April 24th, 2021, 1:37 pm

Take the same income as provided by HYP from FT250 and broadly they were much the same (similar total returns).

Discount the (often high) fees that IT's levy and broadly you're left with a index tracker, any alpha tends to line the IT managers pockets. Indeed look at FT250 excluding IT's and that relatively outperformed, IT's acted more as a lag factor. When I last looked (some years back) there were 43 IT's in the FT250, many of which invest/diversify widely (globally). Combining 17% (43 of 250 stocks) S&P500 and 83% FT250 exc. IT's also relatively outperformed the FT250 (including IT's).

For stability of income, SWR is a appropriate choice as that provides a consistent inflation adjusted income drawn out of total returns. A straight line in real (after inflation) terms income provision rate. Often you can advance that ahead of inflation, such as if you apply a initial 3% SWR rather than just uplifting that £ amount by inflation as the amount drawn in subsequent years, you might uplift by either inflation or to 3% of the portfolio value, whichever is the greater. But if the prior income was already 'enough' if you just leave it at inflation adjusted then that tends to have the effect of becoming a lower % of the portfolio value over time, a initial 3% of portfolio value may drop to being 2% some years later that still provides the same inflation adjusted income. Once down at 2% type levels that's pretty much a PWR, perpetual, very safe. Close to being near-as guaranteed. As good as a annuity with inflation uplift of payments, and where you (or heirs) get to keep the capital.

Fundamentally I dislike IT's due to high fees. Yes there are times when IT's might be at discounts to NAV however they can remain below NAV for extended periods. Or where that discount is just a reflection of policies, such as using leverage. If at a premium to NAV then its even worse, overpaying for something that can be bought cheaper elsewhere. If the hope/plan is to try and beat the broader index then I'd rather go with something like 50/50 2x FT250 (2MCL for instance) and a Permanent Portofolio instead of 50/50 2x/bonds. Here's a US example of that, which could be considered as having provided a 2% higher yield.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406649

Postby Itsallaguess » April 24th, 2021, 2:33 pm

1nvest wrote:
Fundamentally I dislike IT's due to high fees. Yes there are times when IT's might be at discounts to NAV however they can remain below NAV for extended periods.


Fundamentally I like IT's because they provide really simple access to a reliable method of long-term, broadly successful investing (for income in this particular case..), that removes many of the much more convoluted processes often offered up as alternatives...

People are often willing to trade overall returns if it helps them to achieve a simpler, less-involved, long-term investment process that delivers on their personal requirements.

The failure for some to accept this is often, to me at least, really quite baffling....

1nvest wrote:
If the hope/plan is to try and beat the broader index then I'd rather go with something like 50/50 2x FT250 (2MCL for instance) and a Permanent Portofolio instead of 50/50 2x/bonds.

<snip>


But the OP didn't even mention 'beating the broader index' - if you read the thread title, he's asking about 'investing a decent sum for income'.

If we were on the cars board and he was wanting something with the largest boot-space, would you persist in telling him he should be looking at miles-per-gallon instead?

Yet again, sadly, a wilful failure to read the room....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406671

Postby TUK020 » April 24th, 2021, 4:16 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
TUK020 wrote:
I am afraid that I have a bit of a problem with this chart -

Image

It is misleading. Less so visually, now that the 'y' axis starts at zero. However, the 'y' isn't defined.

I believe it is normalised income, and thus the graph shows trends in income, but not absolute income from a fixed investment level.

On an absolute income from a fixed investment level, the HYP portfolio would start with a higher income than the IT basket.

Admittedly, to 'de-risk' this, you would need to hold some HYP income in reserve, and then you would get something that looks more like the IT basket, but all of that is glossed over in a chart with no 'y' axis defined.


I think that's a fair point, and one that helps to be teased out in these types of discussions, although use of the word 'misleading' feels a bit harsh, given the broader usefulness of the chart data for the types of discussions it helps to generate.

'Would benefit from some additional detail' might be a better description, perhaps....

Interesting as well to see you use the phrase 'glossed over' here as well, because I got the same feeling when I read your statement that 'admittedly, to 'de-risk' this [higher HYP income], you would need to hold some HYP income in reserve', as though such a simple instruction isn't ultimately a 'gloss-over' of some sort all on it's own anyway...

It's certain that there's no silver-bullet when it comes to investing, and often it's simply a case of finding somewhere on the very broad middle-ground that suits us temperamentally as individual investors, and I still come back to Arb's pink IT-portfolio chart-line (updated above) time after time, and just think - if I'd seen that data 20 years ago, and if the initial IT-portfolio income would be acceptable enough to me (let's never forget that we all have different expectations and 'needs' in that specific area, that then drives many downstream investment decisions, ultimately...), then the long term general rise and the long term general reliability of that 'one-stop-shop' of purchasing a broad range of diversified income-Investment-Trusts would have been where I'd started out on my investment journey, rather than where I've generally ended up, and boy, what a lot of heart-ache that start would have helped to avoid....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

IAAG,
you're right, my comment was overly pernickety. apologies.
I agree with your overall conclusion - the 'pink IT portfolio' line get you a growing income stream, with lower risk, and much less effort
tuk020

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406688

Postby 1nvest » April 24th, 2021, 7:14 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:But the OP didn't even mention 'beating the broader index' - if you read the thread title, he's asking about 'investing a decent sum for income'.

If we were on the cars board and he was wanting something with the largest boot-space, would you persist in telling him he should be looking at miles-per-gallon instead?

Yet again, sadly, a wilful failure to read the room....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Sadly a wilful application of insulting others. Yet again.

I highlighted SWR provision of a consistent inflation adjusted income taken out of total returns, which aligns to amounts and timings of ones own choosing. You're happy with others to feed you income to levels and times of their choosing. When you use a SWR approach then a higher total portfolio return is a higher income potential. Much of HYP and the likes strive to suggest that high dividends reflects above average total reward outcome - which it doesn't actually achieve. IT's are broadly in the same camp, can achieve above average rewards via diversification/application - such as selective leverage, only to keep those benefits for themselves via high fees. When familiar with one/some of the diversification and application methods that might be used - you have the option to apply them more directly and keep the benefits that might otherwise have lined the pockets of others. Which is similar to how I invest for income as fundamentally my investment objective is to provide a steady/stable income whilst also preserving wealth. That some clearly dislike that method should not be a reason to remove public postings that yet others might find to be of interest/use. But I suspect as before, posts will be selectively flagged and removed because it doesn't fit with some individuals preconceptions of permissible examples/cases.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406692

Postby Itsallaguess » April 24th, 2021, 7:45 pm

1nvest wrote:
Much of HYP and the likes strive to suggest that high dividends reflects above average total reward outcome - which it doesn't actually achieve.


No...

You've simply made that up....

Please show me the direct evidence of any income investors suggesting the above is the case on these boards....

Regarding your other points - you seem to be suggesting that the investment industry can't have, as part of it's overall package, people available to pay, through which an acceptable result can be achieved, and that people should just get their heads down and learn how to do it all themselves.

I think that's likely to put lots of normal people off investing, and I think that would be a real shame when acceptable results can be gained by using some of those services....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406747

Postby Urbandreamer » April 25th, 2021, 9:33 am

1nvest wrote:IT's are broadly in the same camp, can achieve above average rewards via diversification/application - such as selective leverage, only to keep those benefits for themselves via high fees.


That is a HUGE over statement and possibly misrepresentation. While this thread is about investing for income, and some may argue that SMT is inappropriate for that. Have a look at the rewards and fees of that IT.

A charge of 0.37%, though leverage means that banks must be paid to lend it money, leading to a total charge of 0.77%. You seem to either claim that 0.37% is "high", or that they keep what they pay in interest!

https://portfolio-adviser.com/scottish- ... bles-fees/

Performance, up 368% in 5 years. Nothing to sniff at and I'm happy enough with it.

As I said though, not for everyone. That though surely is the point. Everyone is different and should find their own investment style.

I confess that I am interested in the income IT basket mentioned, but it almost certainly wouldn't suit me. A link to the basket would I'm sure be of interest to many.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406775

Postby xeny » April 25th, 2021, 11:29 am

DaveP wrote:A theoretical(ish) question...

Let's say you came into a sum of somewhere between a few hundred £k and a £million.

How would you invest for income, assuming that you are debt free and approaching retirement?

Caveat: I'm not after financial advice, merely an opinion on where you would look in this day and age.


I'd throw it into Fundsmith. If I wanted absolute best performance I'd sell ~4% over the course of a year on a monthly basis. If I wanted the absolute least effort I'd invest it directly (so slightly higher fees at the £million end of your enquiry.) and take advantage of their automated withdrawal facility (https://www.fundsmith.co.uk/docs/defaul ... l_form.pdf)to put the money into my current account on a monthly or quarterly basis.

Helped a friend through this a few years (they were some way before retirement) and they're not unhappy with the experience. It would make an interesting addition to Arborbridge's graph. Started at 4% (by choice) but the rate of income growth has been quite attractive. Obviously some impact due to the Coronavirus dip last year, but it only lasted a couple of months.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406783

Postby 1nvest » April 25th, 2021, 11:41 am

Urbandreamer wrote:You seem to either claim that 0.37% is "high"

0.79% cost for a 5 year holding, add on brokers/platform fees and you might be looking at north of a 1% cost https://doc.morningstar.com/ea4c54ffc29 ... 82c5869576 10K/year per £1M and if/when up at several £M a £30K/year cost is high in £ terms IMO.

I seem to recall last time I looked at IT's some years back that costs were higher for others, and/or that included performance fees and deciding that I didn't want to go down that route. May have been mistaken or perhaps costs have declined since then?

https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... s/a1272271 "Investment trust charges & performance fees" ...
These fees make up an overall, annual ‘ongoing charge’ which is expressed as a percentage of a trust’s investments.

Typically, ongoing charges vary from 0.4% to 3%

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406786

Postby staffordian » April 25th, 2021, 11:59 am

1nvest wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:You seem to either claim that 0.37% is "high"

0.79% cost for a 5 year holding, add on brokers/platform fees and you might be looking at north of a 1% cost https://doc.morningstar.com/ea4c54ffc29 ... 82c5869576 10K/year per £1M and if/when up at several £M a £30K/year cost is high in £ terms IMO.

I seem to recall last time I looked at IT's some years back that costs were higher for others, and/or that included performance fees and deciding that I didn't want to go down that route. May have been mistaken or perhaps costs have declined since then?

https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... s/a1272271 "Investment trust charges & performance fees" ...
These fees make up an overall, annual ‘ongoing charge’ which is expressed as a percentage of a trust’s investments.

Typically, ongoing charges vary from 0.4% to 3%

I always think management fees need to be looked at in the context of overall return.

I'd far rather pay 3% fees for, say, an 8% annual return than pay 0.5% for a dog returning next to nothing.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406794

Postby dealtn » April 25th, 2021, 12:14 pm

staffordian wrote:
1nvest wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:You seem to either claim that 0.37% is "high"

0.79% cost for a 5 year holding, add on brokers/platform fees and you might be looking at north of a 1% cost https://doc.morningstar.com/ea4c54ffc29 ... 82c5869576 10K/year per £1M and if/when up at several £M a £30K/year cost is high in £ terms IMO.

I seem to recall last time I looked at IT's some years back that costs were higher for others, and/or that included performance fees and deciding that I didn't want to go down that route. May have been mistaken or perhaps costs have declined since then?

https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... s/a1272271 "Investment trust charges & performance fees" ...
These fees make up an overall, annual ‘ongoing charge’ which is expressed as a percentage of a trust’s investments.

Typically, ongoing charges vary from 0.4% to 3%

I always think management fees need to be looked at in the context of overall return.

I'd far rather pay 3% fees for, say, an 8% annual return than pay 0.5% for a dog returning next to nothing.


True, but do they tell you in advance what the returns will be?

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406796

Postby staffordian » April 25th, 2021, 12:22 pm

dealtn wrote:
staffordian wrote:
1nvest wrote:0.79% cost for a 5 year holding, add on brokers/platform fees and you might be looking at north of a 1% cost https://doc.morningstar.com/ea4c54ffc29 ... 82c5869576 10K/year per £1M and if/when up at several £M a £30K/year cost is high in £ terms IMO.

I seem to recall last time I looked at IT's some years back that costs were higher for others, and/or that included performance fees and deciding that I didn't want to go down that route. May have been mistaken or perhaps costs have declined since then?

https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... s/a1272271 "Investment trust charges & performance fees" ...

I always think management fees need to be looked at in the context of overall return.

I'd far rather pay 3% fees for, say, an 8% annual return than pay 0.5% for a dog returning next to nothing.


True, but do they tell you in advance what the returns will be?

If I could find any investment that did that, I'd be very fortunate :D

But seriously, all one can go on is past performance and gut instinct...

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406800

Postby nmdhqbc » April 25th, 2021, 12:31 pm

1nvest wrote:0.79% cost for a 5 year holding, add on brokers/platform fees and you might be looking at north of a 1% cost https://doc.morningstar.com/ea4c54ffc29 ... 82c5869576 10K/year per £1M and if/when up at several £M a £30K/year cost is high in £ terms IMO.


did you see the bit below? so 0.31% of that 0.79% is borrowing cost, but as the second part of the excerpt says they've ignored the benefit of the assets they buy with the loans. the borrowing has mostly added to returns so silly to include this 0.31% as a cost to consider when comparing to other investment approaches.

"...the costs of borrowing money to invest, including interest and arrangement fees(0.31%) but not any income or capital benefit of doing so..."

Also, the cost of broker fees does not need to be as high as 0.21% making it add up to 1% annually. i pay £5 + 0.5% stamp duty each time i buy. 0.5% once in say a 10 year holding period is 0.05% a year but actually less if the value appreciates. if i buy once a year that's £5 a year. so on a £5000 holding that's 0.1% a year. so would need to be a very low valued holding to make it add up to 0.21%. but the £5 buy fee would apply to any alternative investment anyway so not really relevant.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

#406818

Postby 1nvest » April 25th, 2021, 1:51 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:While this thread is about investing for income, and some may argue that SMT is inappropriate for that. Have a look at the rewards and fees of that IT.

Thanks for that pointer Urbandreamer. Been casually browsing through the recent and 2016 annual reports now (https://markets.ft.com/data/investment- ... ?s=SMT:LSE). Seems to like US and bio/tech, and incorporates elements of leverage.

Artfully partnering that and for this - that has history back to 2006 there does seem to be reasonable similarities. Further aided by the £/$ having dropped from 1.85 to 1.4 type levels since 2006 i.e. a further 1.85/1.4 = 1.32 (32% gain through FX), which would have uplifted that 22% annualised US$ based gain to 24% for a UK£ investor. Haven't checked the precise figure for SMT but looks like 20% over a similar period.

Does that sit with your feel for its nature/character? i.e. US techie biased + elements of leverage? I am seeing around a 40% hit across the dot com bubble burst 2000 to 2003 type years for SMT. So might be a case of SMT being a over-stretched US/tech play that could turn around and bite, or perhaps continue to do well for yet longer.

Interesting nonetheless and again thanks.

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Re: How To Invest A Decent Sum For Income?

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Postby Urbandreamer » April 25th, 2021, 2:48 pm

1nvest wrote:Does that sit with your feel for its nature/character? i.e. US techie biased + elements of leverage? I am seeing around a 40% hit across the dot com bubble burst 2000 to 2003 type years for SMT. So might be a case of SMT being a over-stretched US/tech play that could turn around and bite, or perhaps continue to do well for yet longer.

Interesting nonetheless and again thanks.


Well.... The trouble with SMT is the IT is hard to label. Sure it has recently been as you describe. But is it now more a private equity fund? After all it has authority to hold up to 30% of it's NAV in such. What of it's holdings in ANT (of Jack Ma fame)? Or it's recent private equity investment in blockchain.com ? Not an IT for everyone.

Did you check out the origin of the name and what it did when it started?

I have reduced the amount that I hold. It's now less than 9% of my portfolio and I'm happy to keep holding.


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