Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Anonymous,bruncher,niord,gvonge,Shelford, for Donating to support the site

Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

Stocks and Shares ISA , Choosing funds for ISA's, risk factors for funds etc
Investment strategy discussions not dealt with elsewhere.
richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3553
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1213 times
Been thanked: 1306 times

Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#630985

Postby richfool » December 1st, 2023, 12:34 pm

A perspective from J P Morgan:

JP Morgan Asset Management: Cash is a bad idea whatever happens next year

29 November 2023

JP Morgan Asset Management’s strategists are advising clients to move into core fixed income ahead of a rally.


By Emma Wallis,

News editor

Many investors are sheltering in cash at the moment, taking advantage of higher rate savings accounts and money market funds, and drawing comfort from the relative safety of cash in an uncertain world. Yet, far from being safe, waiting it out in cash could come with a significant opportunity cost – that of missing out on a bond rally next year.

Karen Ward, JP Morgan Asset Management's chief market strategist in EMEA, thinks that whatever macroeconomic scenario plays out next year, cash is not the best place for clients’ savings.

“I really do understand the emotional appeal of cash,” Ward said. It is “nice and safe” and yields 5%, but “there are better things you could be doing with your money.”

“Clients are asking ‘why don’t I stay in cash until the picture is clearer?’,” Ward continued. They are holding onto cash because they are worried about a recession, but if that were to happen, central banks would cut rates and the interest on cash would be lower.

In a low growth scenario, investors should be in core bonds to benefit from capital gains when rates are cut, she explained.

Ward’s outlook for next year is cautious but if she is proved wrong, investors would be better off in equities.

If artificial intelligence fuels a boom in the US, if inflation eases because of increased productivity, if the US sustains low unemployment, and if a soft landing is achieved, then “you want to be in small-caps, or something else beaten up,” Ward said. “You’d get much more from value equities than cash.”

In an environment of stagflation (slow growth, high unemployment and inflation) alternative investments such as infrastructure would probably perform better than cash, whose value would be eroded by inflation.

Even for the more risk averse, if there is a middle scenario between stagflation and a rapid recovery, staying in cash too long could risk missing out on a bond rally.

Core fixed income usually outperforms cash significantly at the end of a hiking cycle and Ward believes rates have peaked. “If you wait for the first cut, you’ve likely missed the rally for core fixed income,” she said.

The yield curve is currently inverted meaning that yields are higher for short duration bonds than for longer duration bonds. Extending duration has an opportunity cost because it involves giving up a bit of yield.

Hugh Gimber, a global market strategist at JP Morgan Asset Management, described this cost as an insurance policy worth paying to get into longer duration bonds ahead of a rally.

Ward and Gimber think that central banks will switch from pausing to cutting more slowly than the markets expect, but once they start reducing rates, cuts will be deeper than what is currently priced in.

Ward expects at least 100 basis points of cuts, while Gimber said even that might not be enough to get the economy back on its feet.

JP Morgan Asset Management's conviction is based on the depth, not the speed, of the cutting cycle. “Bonds are very high on the Christmas wish list in my house,” Ward said.

Ultimately, whether investors expect recession, recovery or stagflation, they should consider moving out of cash. “In any state of the world, it’s hard to think that cash is the best thing,” Ward concluded. “[Be] in equities if you’re optimistic and bonds if you’re cautious.”

Regardless of the scenario, Ward expects the relationship between equities and bonds to be more volatile going forward but negative correlation to return next year.

A 60/40 portfolio split between equities and bonds has some merit, but while the bond component will protect against low growth, this portfolio would be vulnerable to a resurgence in inflation.

Therefore, Ward recommended a 10% allocation to real assets such as infrastructure, timber and transport. Core infrastructure provides a steady income stream and protection against inflation with little capital volatility.

Gimber added that infrastructure is difficult for private investors to access. Infrastructure investment trusts, for example, can use leverage so they are vulnerable to higher borrowing costs. “The cost of debt is swinging around as rates move,” he said.

Open-ended funds are not the solution either because they face the impossible task of calculating a daily valuation for very illiquid assets that cannot easily be marked to market.

As a result, Gimber said commodities and global macro hedge funds are more appropriate diversifiers for private investors because they are highly liquid.

He recommended focusing on commodities that are a source of inflation and should do well if inflation picks up, such as industrial metals. The transition to renewable energy has led to a shortage of some traditional metals where exploration has not kept pace with demand, he said.

https://www.trustnet.com/news/13398169/ ... -next-year

simoan
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2163
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:37 am
Has thanked: 486 times
Been thanked: 1510 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#630987

Postby simoan » December 1st, 2023, 12:50 pm

Far be it for me to point out that JP Morgan Asset Management get no fees if their customers are holding cash! Comes very much under the banner of "they would say that, wouldn't they". Although they've presented so many different scenarios you can't help feeling one of them may be close to what happens. I agree there are better places than cash but only when valuations make sense. In the meantime, 5% on cash is now higher than inflation in the UK. And if inflation proves stubborn, there's still worse places to be than cash. And by cash I include short-dated gilts as well.

richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3553
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1213 times
Been thanked: 1306 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#630999

Postby richfool » December 1st, 2023, 1:51 pm

I particularly noted the emphasis on bonds in their presentation (which provides me with some "confirmation bias", supporting my recent purchases of bond ETF's. :) )

simoan
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2163
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:37 am
Has thanked: 486 times
Been thanked: 1510 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631009

Postby simoan » December 1st, 2023, 2:12 pm

richfool wrote:I particularly noted the emphasis on bonds in their presentation (which provides me with some "confirmation bias", supporting my recent purchases of bond ETF's. :) )

Probably not a bad decision... I've been bulking up on fixed interest too, but not because I have any idea what will happen in the future; quite the opposite, in fact. I don't have a clue what will happen to inflation and interest rates but then it's not my job to do so. Predicting anything in a year when there will be elections in the UK (very likely) and US (definitely) seems a bit of a mugs game to me.

stevensfo
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3562
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 8:43 am
Has thanked: 3963 times
Been thanked: 1448 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631040

Postby stevensfo » December 1st, 2023, 4:24 pm

simoan wrote:
richfool wrote:I particularly noted the emphasis on bonds in their presentation (which provides me with some "confirmation bias", supporting my recent purchases of bond ETF's. :) )

Probably not a bad decision... I've been bulking up on fixed interest too, but not because I have any idea what will happen in the future; quite the opposite, in fact. I don't have a clue what will happen to inflation and interest rates but then it's not my job to do so. Predicting anything in a year when there will be elections in the UK (very likely) and US (definitely) seems a bit of a mugs game to me.


I don't have a clue what will happen to inflation and interest rates but then it's not my job to do so. Predicting anything in a year when there will be elections in the UK (very likely) and US (definitely) seems a bit of a mugs game to me.

November figures:

EU interest rates 4%, EU inflation 2.4%. USA inflation at 3.7%.

UK RPI 6.10% CPI 4.6%

Best have a global vision.


Steve

Oggy
Lemon Slice
Posts: 666
Joined: November 28th, 2023, 10:26 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 435 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631056

Postby Oggy » December 1st, 2023, 5:17 pm

Global low cost tracker funds in a SIPP all the way for me. Cash will just get eaten away by inflation. Bonds are hopeless as an investment, better suited for a more secure place for your money later on life perhaps. I never take much notice of what any paid financial "expert" says. I'd far rather read this forum for any advice.

vand
Lemon Slice
Posts: 834
Joined: January 5th, 2022, 9:00 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631091

Postby vand » December 1st, 2023, 7:05 pm

If I didn't hold a very large variable rate mortgage then I'd probably be jumping in at the far long end of the yield curve too - there are few obvious trades in markets these days, but being long bonds in the expectation that rates are going to come down is an easy win right now.

3 themes for next year that will drive this trade:

- Inflation has pretty much been kicked to the curb
- Economic growth is sharply slowing in all major economies
- Political pressure to cut rates ahead of the 2024 US election

dealtn
Lemon Half
Posts: 6141
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 449 times
Been thanked: 2369 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631135

Postby dealtn » December 2nd, 2023, 7:26 am

vand wrote:If I didn't hold a very large variable rate mortgage then I'd probably be jumping in at the far long end of the yield curve too - there are few obvious trades in markets these days, but being long bonds in the expectation that rates are going to come down is an easy win right now.

3 themes for next year that will drive this trade:

- Inflation has pretty much been kicked to the curb
- Economic growth is sharply slowing in all major economies
- Political pressure to cut rates ahead of the 2024 US election


What makes you think there are easy wins in the market?

If it was so obvious can you explain why that isn't already priced into the market? Do you think all other investors don't have the same information or ability to interpret it and that you are special?

GoSeigen
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4520
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:14 pm
Has thanked: 1642 times
Been thanked: 1649 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631143

Postby GoSeigen » December 2nd, 2023, 8:37 am

dealtn wrote:
vand wrote:If I didn't hold a very large variable rate mortgage then I'd probably be jumping in at the far long end of the yield curve too - there are few obvious trades in markets these days, but being long bonds in the expectation that rates are going to come down is an easy win right now.

3 themes for next year that will drive this trade:

- Inflation has pretty much been kicked to the curb
- Economic growth is sharply slowing in all major economies
- Political pressure to cut rates ahead of the 2024 US election


What makes you think there are easy wins in the market?

If it was so obvious can you explain why that isn't already priced into the market? Do you think all other investors don't have the same information or ability to interpret it and that you are special?


I agree, this is far from an easy win. More like consensus IMO. EVERYONE thinks bond yields will fall next year. I don't buy it.

(I also don't buy the idea that one "holds" a mortgage in the way that one holds an investment. It's the bank that holds the mortgage, not the debtor. So the bank is long credit; now the investor has the mortgage but simultaneously thinks he should be long credit? Makes no sense to me. Either borrow or lend, or if you're going to do both like a bank, show how it's constructed so there is a clear benefit. Well the yield curve is still inverted so I guess borrowing long and lending short makes some kind of sense...)


So bond yields. Real yields still in low territory. I think strong economic growth is possible, well, strong enough to push up those real yields. That's why I'm still leery of gilts. Even if they perform, subtract inflation from their gain or subtract their underperformance relative to equity, does it look so exciting? Look at FI values in the second half of this year when falling yields were a dead cert and recession imminent: gilts grinding down and even preference shares falling.


During the secular gilt bull market there were falling yields accompanied by bond convexity turbocharging returns. During a bear market those factors play in reverse. Convexity: as yields rise rallies get weaker and capital value is eroded by inflation as you wait in vain for a return to the negative yields of last decade. We won't even mention government finances and the torch that has been put to economic and fiscal policy these last thirteen years.

It's been quite an education seeing people who hated gilts during an epic late stage bond bull market suddenly becoming avid fans when there is a bear. Extraordinary.

Possibly a good time to look at gilts again will be around May next year when 2024 has evolved a bit and traditional summer jitters are on the way. This has turned into a long ramble so will end here.

GS
EDIT: "Inflation kicked to the kerb?" Hmm let's see. Our business will have to raise prices ISTM. We'll be raising wages in the high single figures in all likelihood so prices will have to follow. Don't other businesses feel the same???
"Economic growth sharply slowing. " Yep, we just had a two-year equity bear market. The slowdown was priced in. Now what will shares and bonds be pricing in for future years?
"Political pressure to cut rates" Got some evidence for that? And anyway will the market not take the view that rate cuts for political expediency are inflationary?

simoan
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2163
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:37 am
Has thanked: 486 times
Been thanked: 1510 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631164

Postby simoan » December 2nd, 2023, 10:19 am

Oggy wrote:Global low cost tracker funds in a SIPP all the way for me. Cash will just get eaten away by inflation. Bonds are hopeless as an investment, better suited for a more secure place for your money later on life perhaps. I never take much notice of what any paid financial "expert" says. I'd far rather read this forum for any advice.

If you’re young a global tracker and not holding cash makes sense. However, as you get older, you need to review this. Holding some bonds, gold and cash makes sense once you have no employment income for new investment. If you’ve already won the game you can almost stop playing because the biggest risk is that you’ll turn a winning hand into a losing one, not inflation.

I don’t have a problem holding a chunk of cash because it reduces portfolio risk and as long as the portfolio as a whole beats inflation in the medium term, the cash provides liquidity for when valuations stack up. At the moment there are some compelling valuations in UK small and mid caps in particular, and that is where my cash will be heading over the course of the next 12 months.

vand
Lemon Slice
Posts: 834
Joined: January 5th, 2022, 9:00 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631172

Postby vand » December 2nd, 2023, 10:41 am

GoSeigen wrote:
dealtn wrote:
What makes you think there are easy wins in the market?

If it was so obvious can you explain why that isn't already priced into the market? Do you think all other investors don't have the same information or ability to interpret it and that you are special?


I agree, this is far from an easy win. More like consensus IMO. EVERYONE thinks bond yields will fall next year. I don't buy it.

(I also don't buy the idea that one "holds" a mortgage in the way that one holds an investment. It's the bank that holds the mortgage, not the debtor. So the bank is long credit; now the investor has the mortgage but simultaneously thinks he should be long credit? Makes no sense to me. Either borrow or lend, or if you're going to do both like a bank, show how it's constructed so there is a clear benefit. Well the yield curve is still inverted so I guess borrowing long and lending short makes some kind of sense...)


So bond yields. Real yields still in low territory. I think strong economic growth is possible, well, strong enough to push up those real yields. That's why I'm still leery of gilts. Even if they perform, subtract inflation from their gain or subtract their underperformance relative to equity, does it look so exciting? Look at FI values in the second half of this year when falling yields were a dead cert and recession imminent: gilts grinding down and even preference shares falling.


During the secular gilt bull market there were falling yields accompanied by bond convexity turbocharging returns. During a bear market those factors play in reverse. Convexity: as yields rise rallies get weaker and capital value is eroded by inflation as you wait in vain for a return to the negative yields of last decade. We won't even mention government finances and the torch that has been put to economic and fiscal policy these last thirteen years.

It's been quite an education seeing people who hated gilts during an epic late stage bond bull market suddenly becoming avid fans when there is a bear. Extraordinary.

Possibly a good time to look at gilts again will be around May next year when 2024 has evolved a bit and traditional summer jitters are on the way. This has turned into a long ramble so will end here.

GS
EDIT: "Inflation kicked to the kerb?" Hmm let's see. Our business will have to raise prices ISTM. We'll be raising wages in the high single figures in all likelihood so prices will have to follow. Don't other businesses feel the same???
"Economic growth sharply slowing. " Yep, we just had a two-year equity bear market. The slowdown was priced in. Now what will shares and bonds be pricing in for future years?
"Political pressure to cut rates" Got some evidence for that? And anyway will the market not take the view that rate cuts for political expediency are inflationary?


Stop looking in the rear view mirror; it's so clear that we've overtightened, economic activity is dropping off - the lastest numbers are starting to confirm it, and even they are horribly laggy - and this will drive further disinflation.

THIS is why I am pretty sure that it's an obvious gimme. The consensus view is what the Fed is jawboning - that rates will stay elevated to *ensure* that inflation is tamed. The gimme view is that inflation won't be the Fed's biggest headache in 2024.

I have called the rates market pretty well - pointed out fixed income was getting crush in 2022, said that we were within spitting distance of the top of the hiking cycle back in August 23, and so it has proven. Next move will be down, and that will be across the entire curve.

Oggy
Lemon Slice
Posts: 666
Joined: November 28th, 2023, 10:26 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 435 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631248

Postby Oggy » December 2nd, 2023, 4:00 pm

If you’re young a global tracker and not holding cash makes sense. However, as you get older, you need to review this. Holding some bonds, gold and cash makes sense once you have no employment income for new investment. If you’ve already won the game you can almost stop playing because the biggest risk is that you’ll turn a winning hand into a losing one, not inflation.

I don’t have a problem holding a chunk of cash because it reduces portfolio risk and as long as the portfolio as a whole beats inflation in the medium term, the cash provides liquidity for when valuations stack up. At the moment there are some compelling valuations in UK small and mid caps in particular, and that is where my cash will be heading over the course of the next 12 months.


Agreed - mostly. I am an on the cusp of retirement or at least semi-retirement and no employment income at present. I may get some income in the next year or so, but I am not betting on it. As such, then yes, I should indeed consider (safer?) bonds or some bonds at least perhaps, but I do have around 2 years spend worth of cash in an accessible savings account as a fallback if the market bombs. I don't consider cash as an investment. For me it's a safety net and nothing else.

Unless you are very very savvy I don't think the UK is worth investing in. There is simply no future here. There are better places - global for me as stated.

simoan
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2163
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:37 am
Has thanked: 486 times
Been thanked: 1510 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631269

Postby simoan » December 2nd, 2023, 4:48 pm

Oggy wrote:I don't consider cash as an investment. For me it's a safety net and nothing else.

Unless you are very very savvy I don't think the UK is worth investing in. There is simply no future here. There are better places - global for me as stated.

I never meant to imply cash was an investment, it’s not. It’s cash (plus short-dated gilts) and that provides liquidity and optionality for when you find a situation worth investing in. Just throwing money into the market without any recourse to valuation and risk/reward does not work for me, but then I’m in good company: https://fortune.com/2023/11/04/warren-b ... cord-high/

As for investing in UK small and mid caps, that’s not the same thing as investing in the UK economy. And even if you think this country is past it, there are still many companies that will benefit and are offering such good value that overseas companies are acquiring them on an almost weekly basis currently.

Oggy
Lemon Slice
Posts: 666
Joined: November 28th, 2023, 10:26 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 435 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631274

Postby Oggy » December 2nd, 2023, 5:01 pm

As for investing in UK small and mid caps, that’s not the same thing as investing in the UK economy. And even if you think this country is past it, there are still many companies that will benefit and are offering such good value that overseas companies are acquiring them on an almost weekly basis currently


But surely the UK economy will have an effect on UK companies? To the last point, I am certainly not savvy enough to pick out the diamonds from a mountain of dross. Good luck if you are, but for simple souls like me and at my time of life the risk is far too great.

simoan
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2163
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:37 am
Has thanked: 486 times
Been thanked: 1510 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#631280

Postby simoan » December 2nd, 2023, 5:21 pm

Oggy wrote:
As for investing in UK small and mid caps, that’s not the same thing as investing in the UK economy. And even if you think this country is past it, there are still many companies that will benefit and are offering such good value that overseas companies are acquiring them on an almost weekly basis currently


But surely the UK economy will have an effect on UK companies? To the last point, I am certainly not savvy enough to pick out the diamonds from a mountain of dross. Good luck if you are, but for simple souls like me and at my time of life the risk is far too great.

Obviously, best stick to ETFs if you can’t read and understand a balance sheet and don’t like stock picking. In a way, as a contrarian, it’s great to hear no-one is interested in UK small and midcaps. I suspect that’s why valuations are so compelling currently.

vand
Lemon Slice
Posts: 834
Joined: January 5th, 2022, 9:00 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#633819

Postby vand » December 13th, 2023, 9:24 pm

Interest rate expectation have collapsed after the Fed's pivot tonight.

ITYS.

Tedx
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2166
Joined: December 14th, 2022, 10:59 am
Has thanked: 1916 times
Been thanked: 1532 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#633833

Postby Tedx » December 13th, 2023, 9:54 pm

And we have yet to see the implications of a large number of their rate rises.

AshleyW
Lemon Pip
Posts: 57
Joined: April 23rd, 2020, 5:43 pm
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: Cash, bonds or equities - a perspective

#633841

Postby AshleyW » December 13th, 2023, 10:05 pm

Vanguard are also supporting the view that investors should increase their bond holdings with returns predicted to be around 5% comparable to US equities. https://www.barrons.com/articles/60-40- ... s-61168cdd


Return to “Investment Strategies”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Greylocks and 14 guests