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Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

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Urbandreamer
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Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#277763

Postby Urbandreamer » January 16th, 2020, 7:30 am

The "Behavioural investment reads" thread has morphed into a discussion on the medium, and while that discussion is great (I'm going to contribute), shouldn't we start a new thread on that subject? Hence this post.

Charlottesquare wrote:Afraid I was a charity bookshop fiend, not helped by the likes of Oxfam having bespoke bookshops (Do you know you can donate books to them under Gift Aid)


Yes I did. While books are not all that I give under gift aid to the British Heart Foundation, I am regularly surprised by the amount of money, and in particular the tax they reclaim, upon my "gifts". Technically the items are not gifts but sold for me and the money raised then gifted, allowing the tax to be reclaimed.

TheMotorcycleB wrote:Then you read "Eco Umberto's AntiLibrary".


For others, Eco argues that it's little value keeping books that you have read and great value in having instant access to books that you haven't read. He does so in paper form in a library.

Personally I regard the instant access that I have to ebooks over the internet as a great improvement. I did have a room dedicated to storing books. Over the last 15 or so years I have culled a lot of them. Does that mean that I've got rid of them? Well not in all cases. Some I have felt strongly enough about to buy replacement electronic versions, while others still remain.

Some may think that there are issues with sharing these Ebooks with the rest of the Family. Not a bit of it. I store a copy of them on a Raspberry Pi running Calibre as a server. Anyone on the home network can visit a web page (library) and download a book. There is a plug-in from Apprentice Alf that will strip the DRM so that the books are not simply rented.

Of course there are books that don't work anything like as good as ebooks. So I view them as a special case, because they are. However it is worth mentioning that paper books for some reason don't have scaleable type and images can't be zoomed.

I also listen to a lot of Audio books. They are great as you can listen while driving or cleaning the kitchen.
As yet there is nothing quite like Calibre for Audio books, though the OpenAudible software shows significant promise. Calibre was started quite a while ago and has had time to develop into what it is today.

I listened, rather than read, Talib's "Black swan" and "Prisoners of Geography" as well as many other books. Some simply don't work as Audio books "as you can see in the chart provided...". Rather surprisingly the PoG book worked. If a book doesn't work as a Audio book, there is always the option of buying the ebook, OR, if you are a scribbler the paper book so that you can write in the margins.

Audio books are not cheap to produce, but are surprisingly cheap to buy. I suspect that has something to do with supply and demand!

Ebooks are stupidly cheap to reproduce. Hence back catalogues are rapidly becoming more available. You also don't just have to buy from Amazon. Baen is a great source for SF books and have republished many old SF works, as well as supporting new authors.

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#277941

Postby Charlottesquare » January 16th, 2020, 8:14 pm

Firstly my apologies for somewhat diverting the other thread.

Afraid some books I do want to keep as physical books but I do sometimes read them again, I think Christmas Carol has been read now three times (currently on my fourth reading in a reproduction with colour washed illustrations), Bleak House at least three times, Great Expectations and David Copperfield similar. If I spot older Dickens volumes with nice bindings I feel drawn to buy them though I have at least offloaded the original paperbacks

The Karla trilogy is at least four times read and I think I went through Lord of the Rings three to four times over the years, Game of Thrones is currently on second read (but on the Kindle this time) and a fair few others get repeat visits- I am currently thinking there has likely been a long enough interval that I can even maybe restart on the Ian Rankin Rebus books.

Kindles are fine for most fiction but reference books with maps, charts, illustrations I still favour paper volumes.

The part where you mentioned storing your e books was also interesting, we do currently share using Amazon but having these all stored elsewhere does sound sensible- I will have a chat with my computer literate son about your approach and think I ought to persuade him to do similar for his mother and myself.

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#277958

Postby Urbandreamer » January 16th, 2020, 9:16 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:Afraid some books I do want to keep as physical books but I do sometimes read them again, I think Christmas Carol has been read now three times (currently on my fourth reading in a reproduction with colour washed illustrations), Bleak House at least three times, Great Expectations and David Copperfield similar.


We obviously read different things, but I too re-read. Hence I have often bought e-book replacements for the paper books that I have given away. The storage space however has been used for things like children.

That said....
Charlottesquare wrote:If I spot older Dickens volumes with nice bindings I feel drawn to buy them though I have at least offloaded the original paperbacks


We all need beautiful things. Like many I don't like Dickens. However the publishers and bookbinders cater to us as well.
ie
https://www.amazon.co.uk/MONSTER-HUNTER ... 8&qid=&sr=
No I didn't shell out on the bound editions, though I did think about doing so.

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#278152

Postby Charlottesquare » January 17th, 2020, 3:49 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote:Afraid some books I do want to keep as physical books but I do sometimes read them again, I think Christmas Carol has been read now three times (currently on my fourth reading in a reproduction with colour washed illustrations), Bleak House at least three times, Great Expectations and David Copperfield similar.


We obviously read different things, but I too re-read. Hence I have often bought e-book replacements for the paper books that I have given away. The storage space however has been used for things like children.

That said....
Charlottesquare wrote:If I spot older Dickens volumes with nice bindings I feel drawn to buy them though I have at least offloaded the original paperbacks


We all need beautiful things. Like many I don't like Dickens. However the publishers and bookbinders cater to us as well.
ie
https://www.amazon.co.uk/MONSTER-HUNTER ... 8&qid=&sr=
No I didn't shell out on the bound editions, though I did think about doing so.


Thanks, on clicking the link one of the few books I have seen where a main protagonist is an accountant, I approve, lawyers and doctors get all the good roles in literature, accountants are generally sadly overlooked.

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280025

Postby 88V8 » January 26th, 2020, 10:00 am

My near eyesight is deteriorating quite fast enough without exacerbating the situation with an e-reader.

For me, there is no substitute for a physical book. Currently I am reading one from my late father's library, dating from 1939.
They do take up a lot of space though, and in our cottage space is at a premium, and as fast as I create book space it fills up. We still have some hundreds of books in store from when we moved house - only eight years ago as OH reminds me - and when they arrive there will be something of a crisis.

Audio books, have never tried. In the car I would imagine they are as much a menace as a hand-free phone.

Our cat might be a candidate for audio books though. Last night I was reading aloud to OH, who had the cat on her lap and could not really accommodate the 800 pages of The Goldfinch/Donna Tartt that she is reading for our village book club. I was doing various voices which, incidentally, is quite tricky when one does not know the work and the speaker is often not identified until they have spoken. One has to scan ahead a few lines whilst keeping the voice going, I dare say there is a technique to it.
Anyway, the cat, who had been happily asleep, awoke, sat up and stared fixedly at me, perhaps trying to determine where all these strange people had come from. Then, it walked across the arms of our chairs and ensconced itself on my lap, forsaking OH's comfortable fur rug. Never ever dome that before, and I have no idea why it did so, my voice is more Homer than Richard Burton, but perhaps it would appreciate an audio book.

Urbandreamer wrote:The storage space however has been used for things like children.

:o

V8

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280136

Postby AF62 » January 26th, 2020, 6:15 pm

88V8 wrote:My near eyesight is deteriorating quite fast enough without exacerbating the situation with an e-reader.


As someone who's near-eyesight is also deteriorating (my long-sight went many years ago), a good e-reader is far less strain than a paper book. Do not confuse a good e-reader with an iPad or phone screen; they are worlds apart. A good e-reader, like the latest Kindle Paperwhites are a joy to use. Change the font size and style to something comfortable to read and adjust the back-lighting if you are reading inside (outside there is no issue as the screen is not reflective like a phone screen).

88V8 wrote:For me, there is no substitute for a physical book.


To quote Douglas Adams "Lovers of print are simply confusing the plate for the food".

88V8 wrote:Audio books, have never tried.


They are good for when your eyesight has completely failed, like my fathers. As well as local libraries for audio books, the RNIB has an excellent library of audio books (as well as large print and braille) which are free to borrow - http://www.rniblibrary.com/

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280142

Postby JohnB » January 26th, 2020, 6:29 pm

I prefer a screen now, as it keeps my eyes at constant focus, rather than scanning up and down a printed page as I lie on the bed. Canadian Gutenberg site www.fadedpage.com is good for e-books that are out of copyright in Canada (50 years) rather than the 70 we have here. Lots of James Bond in the last year.

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280445

Postby Urbandreamer » January 27th, 2020, 10:27 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:Thanks, on clicking the link one of the few books I have seen where a main protagonist is an accountant, I approve, lawyers and doctors get all the good roles in literature, accountants are generally sadly overlooked.


It's not as rare as you might think. From the film called "The accountant", to this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YUiBBltOg4

Then there are many books, ie
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/243 ... -and-taxes
Book 2!

Back to the subject. I suspect the problem is that most people don't have much to compare. For example, they have not listened to more then one audiobook, Could you venture an opinion on all books based upon two?

If you read this you have read more than that!

Likewise, e-books! Are you just seeing what you choose to put it on? SERIOUSLY, I often read on a tablet, but it's cr%&&%.
Yes it is.

I have read on a kindle (e-ink display) and its SO much better. However I dropped it and it's damaged. A replacement costs enough that I haven't spent the money, yet. That said, seriously most e-books are far better read on e-ink.
There are other e-ink displays, and they are JUST as good. Seriously if you personally know someone why uses one, borrow it and find out what it's like to read using it. Then decide if you could read any book that way, or are to write it off, unless forced.

Re-audio books (sort off) I Note that Mr Adams has been mentioned. The Films are Cr*T^*! The books better, however they were written as audio plays. which do you expect to be better? Seriously Try the original audio, it's better.

He also wrote some books, I think in those cases the books are better.

I enjoy audiobooks, for the most part. But some are better than others. The author of my recent audio book has a tendency to use phrases like "she said" and "he said", which are stated in the audio book. Irritating.

Then there is the pronounciation. Most voice artists are American and words like shone are oft pronounces "shown". Don't get me started about words like mythering (apparently pronounced m-ith-er-ing to an american).

Still, I think that I get an issue with pronounciaton every 5'th book and then it's not throughout the book.

I should say that Names are in my opinion Names. A series of audiobooks have someone named Arial. I have no issue if that is pronounced Air-ial or Ar-eal., or indeed changes when they change voice artist.

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280504

Postby bungeejumper » January 28th, 2020, 8:58 am

I'd better declare an interest here. Having written eleven or twelve books (or maybe fifteen - don't get your hopes up, they were mostly business and political topics :( ), I still have a fondness for the residual dead tree system, because it's paid a lot of my bills over the years. Books are such an integral part of my life that I couldn't imagine being without them. Only the other day, I was browsing through some of the textbooks I read during my student years, half a century ago, and it was a huge laugh to see how times have changed. (Nowhere more so than in finance and economics!)

But I keep most of that stuff in my "long-term" bookshelves. My "short-term" bookshelves are also full, but I make it a rule to take a book to the charity shop whenever I buy a new one. (British Heart Foundation has all the best books, I find - which is a damn nuisance when I'm trying to lose them rather than acquire them. :D )

I've tried to get along with a Kindle, really I have, but it's just not the same. I want to be able to bend the spine of a paperback book just enough to be able to find the page where I left it. And a few bent-over corners and knocks and wrinkles are all part of what makes a book look comfortably "lived-in". Does anybody know what I mean?

You don't get that from an e-book, and you certainly don't get it from a web page. It's all very well having scrolling text on your screen, but personally I still like to know what an article looks like before I start reading it, which is why magazines still sell (to me, anyway). I can tell at a glance how the paragraphs are laid out, and I can judge the length and the pace pf the printed page before I put my coffee mug down. Dammit, I want to know where the corners of the pages are! And how many of them there are. So many electronic text formats seem to scroll on unendingly, like so much toilet roll. :roll:

Well, that's my old-fart view, anyway. As my tutors would have said, discuss.

BJ

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280527

Postby Charlottesquare » January 28th, 2020, 10:01 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Re-audio books (sort off) I Note that Mr Adams has been mentioned. The Films are Cr*T^*! The books better, however they were written as audio plays. which do you expect to be better? Seriously Try the original audio, it's better.

.


I have the boxed CD set but really never considered them books as they are the radio broadcasts, they were the go to background of choice when I used to run my part time accountancy practice from home; I have probably prepared more accounts listening to Vogon poetry than anything else.

Re the films are c*ap, the more recent one yes but the original low budget, wobbly set, UK TV series is not that bad in its low budget way.

(I also have the two vinyl records version )

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280534

Postby AleisterCrowley » January 28th, 2020, 10:19 am

I love real,physical books... I'm often to be found in Reading Waterstone's just inhaling the book atmosphere. I also used to spend a lot of time (and money) at collectors' book fairs in London (plus a few visits to Hay on Wye)
Scrolling down a list of titles on a Kindle will never replace the pleasure of owning physical books: running one's eyes along the shelf, finding an old friend and pulling it out for a quick browse
I first read the Sherlock Holmes short stories from a 1928 John Murray first collected edition* my grandfather gave me (thanks grandpa B) - there's no way I'd get the same enjoyment settling down on a winter's evening reading Holmes from a Kindle or tablet. Same applies to MR James - some books were meant to be read the old way...


*https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php/Sherlock_Holmes_-_The_Complete_Short_Stories

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280543

Postby bungeejumper » January 28th, 2020, 10:48 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Then there is the pronounciation. Most voice artists are American and words like shone are oft pronounces "shown". Don't get me started about words like mythering (apparently pronounced m-ith-er-ing to an american).

Funny, I'd always heard it as mith-er-ing as well. (Norf Lunnon, so hey, what do I know?) But I'll admit that I still get taken aback by the US pronunciation of Car-ribb-ean, whereas as any fule kno it's Carr-i-bee-an. On the one hand, etymomology is on the side of the European pronunciation (Spanish "Carib"), but darn it, it's more in the yanks' back yard so maybe they're entitled to their own way of doing it?

BJ

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280563

Postby Urbandreamer » January 28th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:I have the boxed CD set but really never considered them books as they are the radio broadcasts, they were the go to background of choice when I used to run my part time accountancy practice from home; I have probably prepared more accounts listening to Vogon poetry than anything else.


There is a difference between an AudioBook and an Audio production (or in your example radio play). For example Audible sells the Story "Just One Damned thing After Another" both as an Audible Drama produced by Marty Ross and as an AudioBook written by Jodi Tayler and read by Zara Ramm.

I confess that I don't know where to stand with "The adventures of Tom Stranger interdimentional insurance agent". On the one hand it is definatly "Read". However it didn't originally exist as a book, being produced specifically for Audible. I believe though that the author has now included it in a written anthology.

For those willing to read on a computer, here is a link so that you can get a gist.
https://monsterhunternation.com/online-fiction/

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280970

Postby doug2500 » January 29th, 2020, 7:04 pm

I don't seem to remember books I've read on a kindle the same as in paper. I've read tons of good books but can't recall who wrote them, or the title, or even details of the storyline. The first two could be accounted for by not seeing the cover every time I pick it up, but not the third.

I also get really really annoyed with kindles poor spelling, grammar and formatting.

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#280979

Postby bungeejumper » January 29th, 2020, 7:28 pm

doug2500 wrote:I also get really really annoyed with kindles poor spelling, grammar and formatting.

The punctuations not up to much either.

BJ

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#281548

Postby Urbandreamer » February 1st, 2020, 8:27 am

doug2500 wrote:I don't seem to remember books I've read on a kindle the same as in paper. I've read tons of good books but can't recall who wrote them, or the title, or even details of the storyline. The first two could be accounted for by not seeing the cover every time I pick it up, but not the third.

I also get really really annoyed with kindles poor spelling, grammar and formatting.


It's easy to gently poke fun, as BJ has, or more caustically as I fear that I might be prone to.

However I suspect that reaction is to reading what is written rather than managing to understand what is trying to be said.

Let’s take the first point. The cover. E-books, just like paper books, come with cover art. Indeed publishers, authors and visual artists (painters) put a LOT of time and effort in.

Of course if we consider paper books we might note that different editions have different cover art.

Does Doug mean that he can’t tell that two Harry Potter books contain the same story despite the fact that one has art aimed at children while the other has a picture designed to allow adults to read the book without feeling embarrassed?

Somehow I doubt that. Well repeatedly seeing the title then. However some paper books change their title. For example the book now available as “Outlander” was originally published in the UK as “Cross Stitch” and one of the Harry Potter stories a different name in the US. Hardly a Kindle or E-book thing.

When I was young I had real difficulty remembering which books that I had read, that pre-dated e-books. It got better when I was able to store the books, and storage is easy now that they are bits. To check or “remember” I simply consult the books sorted by author. Being e-books I can sort by author or other things (i.e. title, cook books). In both cases the solution is to have an easy method of checking what you have read.

As for spelling and grammar or as BJ says punctuation. Do you believe that Charles Dickens produced a specially badly worded and spelt version for the Kindle? What of the book “A Pickle for the Knowing Ones” by Timothy Dexter, self published about 1797? The first edition contained no punctuation and the second contained the punctuation at the end, for the readers to insert where they chose!

No I suspect that Doug is confusing how the book is provided with it’s content (some of which depends upon production method)

The traditional method of book production is.
Write.
Read
Revise
Have read.
Revise
Have read.
Print “Galleys”
Have read.
Revise
Set presses (inserting errors)
Print.

Computer printing and e-books both mean that errors are less likely to be added and that significant costs can be cut by skipping parts of the process. Self published e-books have become incredibly cheap to produce. However they often lack the polish that a publishing house will give a book.

Even there I know of one publishing house that sells e-arc’s, electronic advanced reader copies, or the galley print. Naturally they contains mistakes.

Formatting relates to the position of words on the page. Hence is dictated by font size. You can't control the format, if you have scaleable font instead of allowing a zoom or magnify as is oft used with pdf. The issue there is that sentences may end off the side of the viewed text. Is that a good idea?

If you have got this far, it's worth noting that nothing said is about the content (concepts, plot, story, poetry, knowledge)! What do you usually read a book for?

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#281605

Postby doug2500 » February 1st, 2020, 2:05 pm

To take things in order, I hold publishers to a higher standard than myself when it comes to the written word! The world will be a worse place if we become to afraid of offending people to make a joke or two. (I've just noticed a mistake there but I'll leave it in!)

To clarify, what I mean is that most of the time while reading a kindle book if you ask me what it is, or who wrote it I wouldn't be able to tell you! This never happened while reading paper books.

If you said to me 'read any good books lately?' I'd say 'yes, but I'll need to look up on the kindle what they were'. Again, this never happened with paper.

And I don't recall the content as clearly either.

Of course, I've aged in the last couple of years since I got a kindle so maybe it's just that! :roll:

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#282895

Postby bungeejumper » February 7th, 2020, 8:48 am

Urbandreamer wrote:The traditional method of book production is.
Write.
Read
Revise
Have read.
Revise
Have read.
Print “Galleys”
Have read.
Revise
Set presses (inserting errors)
Print.

Computer printing and e-books both mean that errors are less likely to be added and that significant costs can be cut by skipping parts of the process.

Hallelujah to that, bro. :D (Note to the puzzled: when UD says "Have read", he means "send off to an editor and proofreader to be externally read".) Oh gosh, the galleys, the revised galleys, the final galleys, the ozalids in colour separations. A fine book (or reference book) can't be considered safe to publish until it's been checked at least twelve times by at least three different people.

We had some real typo crackers along the way, and we didn't see some of them until we were just about to hit the starting button on the printing machines. Some of my spots included "he kept a scrupulous dairy", when we meant diary. Our all-time show-stopper was "Her Majesty the Queer", which I saw at the very last moment after five people had missed it. :lol: But potentially the most serious was the map designer who gave us a map of "Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland". (Thus suggesting that Ulster was part of Eire. :? ) In a reference book, too. Could have started a war!

The spread of electronic setting in the 1990s certainly increased the likelihood of serious errors, because people were too confident that it couldn't produce them. If a paragraph had wandered out of sequence, there was a good chance that nobody would notice because nobody would be reading it for meaning. And don;t forget, all of those typos I mentioned above would have been passed AOK by a spell-checker.

The toughest editorial process I ever had was when I wrote one of the Dummies guides. (Forgive me if I don't name the title.) Ye gods, I've never seen so many eagle-eyed editors or so many checking stages. A right pain in the bum, some of them, but at least they got it all right in the end.

What's the cost of getting it wrong? (Apart from getting your head chopped off by Her Majesty?) The Larousse Colour Encyclopaedia of Wild Plants (or some similar title) could tell you. In the section on fungi, somebody had mixed up the photo captions for the innocent mushroom and the deadly poisonous toadstool that looked exactly like it. They didn't spot that until it was already in the bookshops. The whole print run (nearly half a million hardback copies) had to be pulped, and the financial hit to the company was formidable. :lol:

Happy days.

BJ

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Re: Paper, Ebook, Audio Book

#282899

Postby AleisterCrowley » February 7th, 2020, 9:00 am

That sort of problem isn't new - see the 'Wicked Bible" for example (not the first printed error -but I know of it from , I think, Terry Pratchett!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Bible


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