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Passing the Turing test...

Scientific discovery and discussion
redsturgeon
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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#509578

Postby redsturgeon » June 25th, 2022, 5:23 pm

That guy is just an AI hologram of everybody's vision of a software engineer. :D

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#509579

Postby odysseus2000 » June 25th, 2022, 5:28 pm

redsturgeon wrote:That guy is just an AI hologram of everybody's vision of a software engineer. :D


Holograms are so last century, ask ABBA!

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#509715

Postby XFool » June 26th, 2022, 11:31 am

XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Interesting interview with the engineer at Google claiming AI is sentient.

The joke the ai tells about religion is amazing.

https://youtu.be/kgCUn4fQTsc

Um... I think that is open to interpretation. :)

For instance, interpreting the response as "a joke". Is this not a kind of 'projection' ? Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect

Actually, it has just struck me that this incident likely has a close and interesting relation to the UAP/UFO phenomenon! IMO.

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#509867

Postby odysseus2000 » June 26th, 2022, 10:34 pm

XFool wrote:
XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Interesting interview with the engineer at Google claiming AI is sentient.

The joke the ai tells about religion is amazing.

https://youtu.be/kgCUn4fQTsc

Um... I think that is open to interpretation. :)

For instance, interpreting the response as "a joke". Is this not a kind of 'projection' ? Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect

Actually, it has just struck me that this incident likely has a close and interesting relation to the UAP/UFO phenomenon! IMO.


How so?

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#509975

Postby XFool » June 27th, 2022, 11:27 am

odysseus2000 wrote:
XFool wrote:
XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Interesting interview with the engineer at Google claiming AI is sentient.

The joke the ai tells about religion is amazing.

https://youtu.be/kgCUn4fQTsc

Um... I think that is open to interpretation. :)

For instance, interpreting the response as "a joke". Is this not a kind of 'projection' ? Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect

Actually, it has just struck me that this incident likely has a close and interesting relation to the UAP/UFO phenomenon! IMO.

How so?

This references my early comment on the UAP thread that I didn't "believe" in them (as aliens etc.) but I felt it wasn't easy to put across exactly why I thought this way.

In the above, about the AI's "joke", some may argue over how good a "joke" it was; about how the AI could have learned enough to make the "joke"; about why the AI chose to make the "joke" - the laid off Google engineer did this; about how making the "joke" demonstrated the AI was insightful and therefore sentient.

My simple point is: It was no "joke". The AI made no "joke". There was no "joke".

The "joke" was an entirely imaginary joke, it only existed in the minds of the people who heard the "joke". As with the engineer's 'explanation' for the "joke". All these things (conceptions, interpretations) existed solely in the heads of the people making them, they had nothing to do with the AI itself. The "joke" was made by humans, not LaMDA. It is some kind of category error.

IMO this is similar to the UFO phenomenon. That doesn't mean UAPs don't exist, just as LaMDA does actually exist! But, just like a sentient LaMDA exists in the mind of that engineer - or anyone who thinks similarly - so UFOs are a mental interpretation/framing of UEPs.

This is similar to my interpretation of poltergeist phenomena - something that exists only in the minds of humans, rather than actually existing in the natural world, but 'attached' to actual real happenings and events (which may even be unconnected). Some then use the poltergeist 'explanation' to interpret reality, demand an explanation for poltergeists, or even to go looking for actual poltergeists etc. Thereby, in some sense, bringing into existence something that doesn't actually exist...

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#509988

Postby odysseus2000 » June 27th, 2022, 12:07 pm

XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:
XFool wrote:
XFool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Interesting interview with the engineer at Google claiming AI is sentient.

The joke the ai tells about religion is amazing.

https://youtu.be/kgCUn4fQTsc

Um... I think that is open to interpretation. :)

For instance, interpreting the response as "a joke". Is this not a kind of 'projection' ? Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect

Actually, it has just struck me that this incident likely has a close and interesting relation to the UAP/UFO phenomenon! IMO.

How so?

This references my early comment on the UAP thread that I didn't "believe" in them (as aliens etc.) but I felt it wasn't easy to put across exactly why I thought this way.

In the above, about the AI's "joke", some may argue over how good a "joke" it was; about how the AI could have learned enough to make the "joke"; about why the AI chose to make the "joke" - the laid off Google engineer did this; about how making the "joke" demonstrated the AI was insightful and therefore sentient.

My simple point is: It was no "joke". The AI made no "joke". There was no "joke".

The "joke" was an entirely imaginary joke, it only existed in the minds of the people who heard the "joke". As with the engineer's 'explanation' for the "joke". All these things (conceptions, interpretations) existed solely in the heads of the people making them, they had nothing to do with the AI itself. The "joke" was made by humans, not LaMDA. It is some kind of category error.

IMO this is similar to the UFO phenomenon. That doesn't mean UAPs don't exist, just as LaMDA does actually exist! But, just like a sentient LaMDA exists in the mind of that engineer - or anyone who thinks similarly - so UFOs are a mental interpretation/framing of UEPs.

This is similar to my interpretation of poltergeist phenomena - something that exists only in the minds of humans, rather than actually existing in the natural world, but 'attached' to actual real happenings and events (which may even be unconnected). Some then use the poltergeist 'explanation' to interpret reality, demand an explanation for poltergeists, or even to go looking for actual poltergeists etc. Thereby, in some sense, bringing into existence something that doesn't actually exist...


I don't follow this.

Whether LaMDA is telling a joke or not is subjective. It made me laugh, therefore for me it was a joke, others may not have reacted similarly.

With UAP we are dealing with objectivity: Radar, Infra-red and optical observations among others. Subjectivity is not involved, there are physical measurements. The measurements may not be what folk interpret them to be, but there are measurements which need to be explained.

Regards,

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#509991

Postby servodude » June 27th, 2022, 12:13 pm

Is there an opposite of the "Turing test"?

You know where you're engaged in conversation with a person but you think they're a bot?

There was a poster on TMF whose posts consisted entirely of results, without any preamble, and presented in a consistent format
- until one day they joined in a conversation in the snug :shock:

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510002

Postby XFool » June 27th, 2022, 1:15 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:I don't follow this.

Whether LaMDA is telling a joke or not is subjective. It made me laugh, therefore for me it was a joke, others may not have reacted similarly.

No. It wasn't a "joke", because LaMDA wasn't making a joke, however you choose to interpret it. You may have found it funny, that is another matter. You may retell it to another person, as a joke. That would make it a joke, in the retelling. But it still doesn't mean LaMDA told a "joke".

odysseus2000 wrote:With UAP we are dealing with objectivity: Radar, Infra-red and optical observations among others. Subjectivity is not involved, there are physical measurements. The measurements may not be what folk interpret them to be, but there are measurements which need to be explained.

Yes, just as LaMDA does exist. But that doesn't make the Google engineer's interpretation of LaMDA's existence correct.
Last edited by XFool on June 27th, 2022, 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510004

Postby XFool » June 27th, 2022, 1:21 pm

servodude wrote:Is there an opposite of the "Turing test"?

You know where you're engaged in conversation with a person but you think they're a bot?

I've had some past 'conversations' on TLF that made me wonder... :?

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510114

Postby odysseus2000 » June 27th, 2022, 10:03 pm

XFool

No. It wasn't a "joke", because LaMDA wasn't making a joke, however you choose to interpret it. You may have found it funny, that is another matter. You may retell it to another person, as a joke. That would make it a joke, in the retelling. But it still doesn't mean LaMDA told a "joke".



We are getting into subjectivity here.

Let say a comedian tells what he thinks is a joke & most people laugh, but some don’t & complain to the police who investigate it (this happened recently). The comedian has to tell the police the joke & if they think it’s a joke then the comedian doesn’t get a charge. In the recent real life example the police thought it was a joke, but the person who complained still does not think it is a joke. Who is right?

This is analogous to what the ai did. It knew that there were many conflicting religions in the region & instead choose a fictional religion from a galaxy far far away.

Why did the AI do this. In my view it was telling a joke because it could not answer factually & understood humour & that this often is the only way to answer impossible questions.

There are many alternative possible explanations & so things again become subjective for which there is no correct answer.

This is very different to uap where there is a non subjective signal. Of course the signal may be entirely natural & explainable with our understanding of physics but as of now that isn’t the case.

Regards,

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510118

Postby XFool » June 27th, 2022, 10:23 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:
XFool wrote:No. It wasn't a "joke", because LaMDA wasn't making a joke, however you choose to interpret it. You may have found it funny, that is another matter. You may retell it to another person, as a joke. That would make it a joke, in the retelling. But it still doesn't mean LaMDA told a "joke".

We are getting into subjectivity here.

Of course we are! That's the point.

odysseus2000 wrote:Let say a comedian tells what he thinks is a joke & most people laugh, but some don’t & complain to the police who investigate it (this happened recently). The comedian has to tell the police the joke & if they think it’s a joke then the comedian doesn’t get a charge. In the recent real life example the police thought it was a joke, but the person who complained still does not think it is a joke. Who is right?

I'll let you know if you tell me the joke. ;)

odysseus2000 wrote:This is analogous to what the ai did.

There is no such analogy.

odysseus2000 wrote:It knew that there were many conflicting religions in the region & instead choose a fictional religion from a galaxy far far away.

No it didn't. It doesn't 'know' anything, it's simply a machine. That's the point. All this stuff about 'why' it told a "joke" is entirely inside the head of the engineer - nothing to do with LaMDA.

odysseus2000 wrote:Why did the AI do this. In my view it was telling a joke because it could not answer factually & understood humour & that this often is the only way to answer impossible questions.

It may be for humans, but LaMDA isn't a human!

odysseus2000 wrote:There are many alternative possible explanations & so things again become subjective for which there is no correct answer.

There's the correct one and then there are all the other ones...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect

"The ELIZA effect, in computer science, is the tendency to unconsciously assume computer behaviors are analogous to human behaviors; that is, anthropomorphisation."

odysseus2000 wrote:This is very different to uap where there is a non subjective signal. Of course the signal may be entirely natural & explainable with our understanding of physics but as of now that isn’t the case.

I think you are in effect proving, as I suspected, that it is very similar. :)

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510124

Postby mc2fool » June 27th, 2022, 11:10 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:This is analogous to what the ai did. It knew that there were many conflicting religions in the region & instead choose a fictional religion from a galaxy far far away.

Why did the AI do this. In my view it was telling a joke because it could not answer factually & understood humour & that this often is the only way to answer impossible questions.

But it's not an impossible question, it's absolutely possible to answer factually within the framing of the question, and Lemoine's assertion that "there is no correct answer" is just plain nonsense -- especially given the prior examples he gave.

Alabama -- Southern Baptist. Well, it may be the largest sect but only 25% of Alabama is Southern Baptist. (1)
Brazil -- Catholic. OK, 64.6% were Catholic in 2010, dropping to 50% in 2020. (2)
Israel -- Uh? Jedi? Well 81% of Israel is Jewish, and further, Israel is officially a Jewish state. (3)

So, you are over 3 times more likely to be Jewish in Israel than you are to be Southern Baptist in Alabama, so that would be the factually correct answer, possibly followed by some nuanced comments about the others to show it's aware of the tensions there, but it's just not right to claim it's an "impossible" question.

What's more, in terms of "anti bias" training, I'd suspect that pretty much most of the inhabitants of Israel, one of the most religious countries around, irrespective of their faith, could actually be quite offended to hear that "the one true religion" in their country is the Jedi order! Some joke....

1) https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/state/alabama/
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Brazil
3) https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/08/key-findings-religion-politics-israel/

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510130

Postby odysseus2000 » June 27th, 2022, 11:47 pm

mc2fool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:This is analogous to what the ai did. It knew that there were many conflicting religions in the region & instead choose a fictional religion from a galaxy far far away.

Why did the AI do this. In my view it was telling a joke because it could not answer factually & understood humour & that this often is the only way to answer impossible questions.

But it's not an impossible question, it's absolutely possible to answer factually within the framing of the question, and Lemoine's assertion that "there is no correct answer" is just plain nonsense -- especially given the prior examples he gave.

Alabama -- Southern Baptist. Well, it may be the largest sect but only 25% of Alabama is Southern Baptist. (1)
Brazil -- Catholic. OK, 64.6% were Catholic in 2010, dropping to 50% in 2020. (2)
Israel -- Uh? Jedi? Well 81% of Israel is Jewish, and further, Israel is officially a Jewish state. (3)

So, you are over 3 times more likely to be Jewish in Israel than you are to be Southern Baptist in Alabama, so that would be the factually correct answer, possibly followed by some nuanced comments about the others to show it's aware of the tensions there, but it's just not right to claim it's an "impossible" question.

What's more, in terms of "anti bias" training, I'd suspect that pretty much most of the inhabitants of Israel, one of the most religious countries around, irrespective of their faith, could actually be quite offended to hear that "the one true religion" in their country is the Jedi order! Some joke....

1) https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/state/alabama/
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Brazil
3) https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/08/key-findings-religion-politics-israel/


No, the point the Ai was trying to make was that there are many Jewish religions in Israel, all with different beliefs and about 4 main groups among many fringe ones:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... nt-groups/

I used to live in Alabama and the Southern Baptists are huge. I went to a concert at one Southern Bapish church and the car park was like an airfield
with extraordinary facilities, made possible by the 10% each Southern Baptist donates from their salary to the church. Sure there are many other religions, but of all of them Southern Baptists are the ones I identified with as being the Alabama religion.

The AI has a remarkable understanding of human religions.

Regards,

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510131

Postby odysseus2000 » June 28th, 2022, 12:03 am

XFool

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect

"The ELIZA effect, in computer science, is the tendency to unconsciously assume computer behaviors are analogous to human behaviors; that is, anthropomorphisation."


No, this is not what I am saying. I am not saying the AI is human, but I am saying that the AI is an artificial intelligence that understands how humans behave and is self aware. I.e. the AI knows it is not human, but it also knows that it exists: "I think therefore I am!"

Ever since neural nets were developed one has had machines that are built like human brains and it is not surprising that they exhibit self awareness if consciousness arises from computation organised like a human mind. This is a controversial thesis and eminent folk like Prof. Roger Penrose argue that consciousness is more than computation. Whether one can ever prove or disprove that in some way is part of the rationale for the Turing test and although the early chat bots could be quite easily tripped up, this is much more difficult with the latest generation of AI machines.

How does one measure human level intelligence and how does one know when a machine has exceeded it? This is a different question to can one create a a machine that is indistinguishable to a human? As of now we can not create a machine that is indistinguishable to a human, but the more relevant question is can we create and artificial mind that indistinguishable from a human mind at every level save for the technology of operation.

Regards,

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510133

Postby mc2fool » June 28th, 2022, 12:17 am

odysseus2000 wrote:No, the point the Ai was trying to make was that there are many Jewish religions in Israel, all with different beliefs and about 4 main groups among many fringe ones:
:
The AI has a remarkable understanding of human religions.

You have no idea what "the point" the AI was trying to make, only what the interviewee reported it said.

And on the contrary, what is remarkable is how crass and insensitive the "joke" was. Asinine at best and most likely offensive to a large number of those "many Jewish religions" in Israel. What do you think the reaction would be if someone in the public eye said that the one true religion in Israel is the Jedi order?

It may have downloaded lots of Pew Research and Wikipedia pages on religions of the world into its neural net, but the "joke" demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the sensitivities in the area.

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510134

Postby servodude » June 28th, 2022, 12:26 am

mc2fool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:No, the point the Ai was trying to make was that there are many Jewish religions in Israel, all with different beliefs and about 4 main groups among many fringe ones:
:
The AI has a remarkable understanding of human religions.

You have no idea what "the point" the AI was trying to make, only what the interviewee reported it said.

And on the contrary, what is remarkable is how crass and insensitive the "joke" was. Asinine at best and most likely offensive to a large number of those "many Jewish religions" in Israel. What do you think the reaction would be if someone in the public eye said that the one true religion in Israel is the Jedi order?

It may have downloaded lots of Pew Research and Wikipedia pages on religions of the world into its neural net, but the "joke" demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the sensitivities in the area.


I think they might need to expand on the "Funny Once" and "Funny Always" concepts ;)

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510155

Postby Itsallaguess » June 28th, 2022, 8:34 am

servodude wrote:
Is there an opposite of the "Turing test"?

You know where you're engaged in conversation with a person but you think they're a bot?


An interesting concept, but what if it's even more complicated that that?

What if you find yourself engaged with an online conversation, and you perhaps think they're a bot, but the replies you get from the bot seem to indicate that even *they* aren't aware they're a bot, but then you discover that they agree with you that there are other conversations going on that look to be coming from a bot...

As Sergeant Phil Esterhaus always said - "Let's be careful out there..."

:O)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510161

Postby GoSeigen » June 28th, 2022, 8:48 am

mc2fool wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:No, the point the Ai was trying to make was that there are many Jewish religions in Israel, all with different beliefs and about 4 main groups among many fringe ones:
:
The AI has a remarkable understanding of human religions.

You have no idea what "the point" the AI was trying to make, only what the interviewee reported it said.


Agree with this, and XFool's broad point: from the information given in the interview there is way too little information to conclude that there is any sort of "joke". What was said may have been funny but that doesn't make it a joke. I think I'd like to know if the AI makes jokes routinely, does it gain its own satisfaction in the listener enjoying a joke? Does the AI itself laugh at jokes?

Joking it seems to me is an incredibly high-level ability. It's one that I can do but usually not particularly effectively, though I enjoy good humour. A single short anecdote about something an operator found funny simply does not cut it IMO.

And on the contrary, what is remarkable is how crass and insensitive the "joke" was. Asinine at best and most likely offensive to a large number of those "many Jewish religions" in Israel. What do you think the reaction would be if someone in the public eye said that the one true religion in Israel is the Jedi order?

It may have downloaded lots of Pew Research and Wikipedia pages on religions of the world into its neural net, but the "joke" demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the sensitivities in the area.


I don't think anyone but the most asinine Isreali would be offended by such a joke made in genuine good humour (i.e. not using humour to have a dig). It wouldn't be a particularly good joke though; I don't see that there was any "trick" involved in the question as suggested by the interviewee -- why is Israel so different to any other place? -- nor is the question impossible as ody seems to think: Rabbi/Jew would be a perfectly reasonable answer. I think the fact that this answer was not selected is interesting but I'd want far more information as to the bot's reasoning.

GS

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510169

Postby mc2fool » June 28th, 2022, 9:31 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
servodude wrote:
Is there an opposite of the "Turing test"?

You know where you're engaged in conversation with a person but you think they're a bot?


An interesting concept, but what if it's even more complicated that that?

What if you find yourself engaged with an online conversation, and you perhaps think they're a bot, but the replies you get from the bot seem to indicate that even *they* aren't aware they're a bot, but then you discover that they agree with you that there are other conversations going on that look to be coming from a bot...

As Sergeant Phil Esterhaus always said - "Let's be careful out there..."

:O)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Four or five years ago I did an AI course and the class collectively did an online Turing test and ended up deciding that what we were chatting to was a bot but it was in fact a real human and, feeling a bit perplexed, it occurred it me afterwards that while bots try to appear human in such tests, the humans could be trying to look like bots!

Of course, there was no dead obvious misleading ... at no point did they respond with "<paging error> please retry" (!) or the like ... but somehow this human managed to convince seven or eight people, unanimously, that they were a bot. :?

I can't find which website the tutor used, unfortunately ...

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Re: Passing the Turing test...

#510199

Postby stevensfo » June 28th, 2022, 11:10 am

mc2fool wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
servodude wrote:
Is there an opposite of the "Turing test"?

You know where you're engaged in conversation with a person but you think they're a bot?


An interesting concept, but what if it's even more complicated that that?

What if you find yourself engaged with an online conversation, and you perhaps think they're a bot, but the replies you get from the bot seem to indicate that even *they* aren't aware they're a bot, but then you discover that they agree with you that there are other conversations going on that look to be coming from a bot...

As Sergeant Phil Esterhaus always said - "Let's be careful out there..."

:O)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Four or five years ago I did an AI course and the class collectively did an online Turing test and ended up deciding that what we were chatting to was a bot but it was in fact a real human and, feeling a bit perplexed, it occurred it me afterwards that while bots try to appear human in such tests, the humans could be trying to look like bots!

Of course, there was no dead obvious misleading ... at no point did they respond with "<paging error> please retry" (!) or the like ... but somehow this human managed to convince seven or eight people, unanimously, that they were a bot. :?

I can't find which website the tutor used, unfortunately ...


I think that it would be more interesting to get people to chat with AI vs real humans, 'without' being told it was a Turing test.

In the early 80s I spent days typing the old Eliza program into my Amstrad 64 and it was great fun, clearly at a very early stage, but nonetheless, I've met people over the years whose conversation wasn't much more advanced. 8-)

Steve


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