Human alien interactions

[ursaminortaur]

The idea of helicopter drops is inconsistent with mutilations having been observed for hundreds of years.

Given the wide geographical range & similar reports I think one has to accept that some thing extraordinary is happening to at least a subset of these mutilations, but I have no idea what.

I wasn't so much offering a general explanation, rather pointing out how there may be an issue in these kinds of things by assuming there is just one explanation. Indeed, the helicopter rustling explanation couldn't possibly explain events centuries ago, just as it presumably can't explain all events today. Likewise, past events may have different (unknown) explanations, just as with events today.

Believing aliens might be an explanation is, apart from anything else, possibly jumping to the conclusion that there is a single explanation at all.

Sure there may be multiple explanations.

All that I can deduce currently is that there are some events that I can not explain.

These unexplained events may be created by non human intelligence. Currently I can not exclude this possibility.

Regards,

Or there may reallly be nothing mysterious to explain

https://www.history.com/news/cattle-mutilation-1970s-skinwalker-ranch-ufos

Skepticism Within the Veterinary World

Some medical experts offer much more mundane explanations for the animal mutilations. Veterinary pathologists point to the fact that scavengers tend to eat the soft tissue of a dead animal first, which might explain the missing external organs commonly described on the dead bovine. Bloodlessness, meanwhile, might be attributed to livor mortis: When an animal dies, the heart stops and the blood stops circulating, thus settling the blood via gravity, creating a “bloodless” effect in some surface parts of a carcass.

In Washington County, Arkansas in 1979, the sheriff’s department conducted an experiment: It placed a dead cow in a field for 48 hours and found it looked a lot like the ostensibly mutilated ones. Bacterial bloating had caused its skin to tear in an incision-like manner similar to what had been described in some ranchers’ reports. Maggots and blowflies, meanwhile, had cleaned out the animal’s organs.

[Itsallaguess]

Very little makes logical sense

You're not kidding Ody - I mean, if you go back a few pages, you'll even see there's a poster trying to convince people that we're currently being visited by faster-than-light spacecraft, where the physics-defying, intergalactic inhabitants somehow don't even know how to breed their own cows!

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[mc2fool]

ursaminotaur

icro-organisms generally have great problems crossing between even relatively closely related species hence it seems unlikely that alien organisms would affect us in the same way that European diseases affected aboriginal people after first contact.

As to resources the asteroid belt (and similar belts in other uninhabited solar systems) would make a far better target for metals and the bodies of the outer solar system (and again bodies in similar regions in other uninhabited solar systems) for water and other more volatile products. Only complex organic chemicals might make Earth a target but given how much further advanced the aliens would be they would probably only require a single sample to enable them to replicate it from simpler compounds or elements. So although they might be interested in coming here to find out about life on Earth and any possibly beneficial complex organic compounds produced by that life it is unlikely that they would want to farm it or engage in large scale hunting to obtain those chemicals.

It is also difficult to see why they would bother enslaving humans when their machines and computer systems would be far more efficient for pretty much any purpose they could use humans for.

The absence of large scale offensive operations by potential aliens is supportive of these ideas.

Seriously?! And you really don't think that it's more likely that the absence of large scale offensive operations by potential aliens is a zillion times more supportive of the idea that there aren't any?!? Have you never heard of Occam's razor?

One line of thought is that humans are an alien/monkey clone. The human genome has been decoded with no obvious non terrestrial components & not much different from chimps which weighs against this, unless the aliens are so similar that we can not tell their dna from ours.

Another line of thought is that the aliens are an intelligence that evolved on earth before humans & choose to let humans develop with out overt influence.

More & more lines of thought exist including ideas that there are several alien species here.

And you had the nerve to call scientists that think we may be alone "pot boilers"....

[odysseus2000]

ursaminotaur

Or there may reallly be nothing mysterious to explain

https://www.history.com/news/cattle-mut ... ranch-ufos

Skepticism Within the Veterinary World

If you farm livestock you have to deal with dead stock, but the cows labelled as mutilations have very different characteristics to normal dead cows. The organs have been removed with clean cuts, not animal bites & often the cows are found dead after being seen alive only a few hours before.

Yes, they could be done unknown phenomenon but although there have been many attempts to describe them as being due to normal death processes the analysis rarely fits with observations.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Seriously?! And you really don't think that it's more likely that the absence of large scale offensive operations by potential aliens is a zillion times more supportive of the idea that there aren't any?!? Have you never heard of Occam's razor?mc2fool

Yes, but can you explain observation of uap that move at 5000g, by contrast fighter jets break apart at 15 g

Regards,

[mc2fool]

Seriously?! And you really don't think that it's more likely that the absence of large scale offensive operations by potential aliens is a zillion times more supportive of the idea that there aren't any?!? Have you never heard of Occam's razor?mc2fool

Yes, but can you explain observation of uap that move at 5000g, by contrast fighter jets break apart at 15 g

Yes, simple. The alleged observation was in error. There you go, Occam at work...

[XFool]

Yes, but can you explain observation of uap that move at 5000g, by contrast fighter jets break apart at 15 g

But can you explain exactly how these acceleration estimates, of an unknown entity, were made? How valid are they really?

[odysseus2000]

Yes, but can you explain observation of uap that move at 5000g, by contrast fighter jets break apart at 15 g

But can you explain exactly how these acceleration estimates, of an unknown entity, were made? How valid are they really?

As I understand it, uap have been observed in a range of wavelengths as video by military systems and that gives us time & from the change of position one computes acceleration.

If we were discussing only one event there would be many possibilities for error, but we are instead discussing many observations including cases where uap were seen at orbital altitudes & then they descended to below sea level & then accelerated back to altitude. These observations have been made by many military in many countries & were recorded by uk & German aircrew during the second war, each thinking it was a secret weapon of the other side.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

This peer reviewed paper discussed measurements of the calculated g forces for uav, the authors choose v for vehicle rather than p for phenomenon:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/

Regards,

[mc2fool]

This peer reviewed paper discussed measurements of the calculated g forces for uav, the authors choose v for vehicle rather than p for phenomenon:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/

"Vehicle" is a conclusion, and so as a scientific paper it falls at the first hurdle.

Further, the paper refers to these unidentified aerial phenomena as "craft" throughout, without equivocation or question ... until the Conclusions section, in which they say, "We have characterized the accelerations of several UAVs and have demonstrated that if they are craft then they are indeed anomalous, displaying technical capabilities far exceeding those of our fastest aircraft and spacecraft".

Right, and if they are not "craft" but some other phenomena then they don't ....

[Sorcery]

Yes, but can you explain observation of uap that move at 5000g, by contrast fighter jets break apart at 15 g

But can you explain exactly how these acceleration estimates, of an unknown entity, were made? How valid are they really?

As I understand it, uap have been observed in a range of wavelengths as video by military systems and that gives us time & from the change of position one computes acceleration.

If we were discussing only one event there would be many possibilities for error, but we are instead discussing many observations including cases where uap were seen at orbital altitudes & then they descended to below sea level & then accelerated back to altitude. These observations have been made by many military in many countries & were recorded by uk & German aircrew during the second war, each thinking it was a secret weapon of the other side.

Regards,

Not sure I have seen all the uap videos, but the almost instantaneous movements reminded me of a trick I used to play with my son. I used to have a metallic watch which in certain situations (sunhine into a partially shaded room). One day I saw my infant son, taking great interest in following a light on the wall. After working out that it was my watch reflecting the sun that was making the light on the wall, I spent about 15 minutes with him making the light move very quickly by slightly twisting my wrist. Later on I discovered the young cats would chase it for a very long time without getting bored. Nowadays laser pointer pens achieve the same effect with cats https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebLaWzjQ2Xg

Anyway point being you can get very fast apparent speeds of objects if the object is a reflection or a projecton like lasers. True for visual, radar and probably all wavelengths.

Which is to say that aliens could be involved (I rather hope they are!) but maybe we should try and eliminate ground sources and if coming from space then we need to eliminate any natural sources first,

A firm believer in we don't know everything and what we do know will often be superceded by better understandings in the future.

[XFool]

This peer reviewed paper discussed measurements of the calculated g forces for uav, the authors choose v for vehicle rather than p for phenomenon:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/

Thanks for that peer reviewed paper, odysseus2000.

"On 21 February 1951, Lt. Graham Bethune of the U.S. Navy, experienced with 4150 Navy flight hours and 1340 civilian flight hours, was flying Navy R5D, Bureau No. 56501 with Lieutenant Commander (LCDR) Fred Kingdon and Lt. Noel Koger, on a scheduled eight hour passenger flight from Keflavik, Iceland to Argentia, Nova Scotia, while two other crews slept on board. It was a clear northern night, and they were flying on autopilot at 10,000 ft with a ground speed of over 200knots. Lt. Bethune and LCDR Kingdon were on watch for other aircraft. About four and a half hours out of Keflavik, Lt. Bethune noticed a yellow glow below the horizon approximately 30 to 35 miles away that appeared to be city lights. Concerned that they were off course, they had Lt. Koger confirm the navigation and verify that there were no ships in the area. Lt. Jones and Lt. Meyer were woken and came forward into the cockpit. The consensus was that the lights were probably due to a ship. When the lights were about 5 to 7 miles away about 30∘ to the right, the lights went out and a circular yellow halo appeared on the water. The halo changed from yellow to orange and then to a fiery red when it rose suddenly to meet them, turning to a blueish red around the perimeter. It arrived at about 100 to 200 feet below their altitude in a fraction of a second [14] and about 200 to 300 feet in front of the airplane. The UAV was observed to be a metallic disk-shaped object that was about 200 to 300 feet in diameter. The UAV flew with the airplane for about 5 min, and was witnessed by most of the passengers on board, before leaving at a speed in excess of 1500mph, which was later confirmed to be about 1800mph by Gander Center Radar, Newfoundland, Canada [15]. It should be noted that the airspeed record of 698.505mph was made almost two years later in November of 1952 by General J. Slade Nash flying a North American F-86D Sabre ([16], p. 24).

In Lt. Bethune’s letter to Stuart Nixon (NICAP), he stated that the UAV was about 5 to 7 miles away [15] when it began its ascent, whereas in his interview with Sirius Disclosure, he states that it was about 15 miles away [14]. We were aware only of the 15-mile distance during our oral presentation. The accelerations have been re-analyzed for this paper using the 5 to 7 mile distance to ensure a more conservative lower bound estimate of the acceleration."

So, they were flying at night, in northern latitudes, when they saw unidentified lights.
They reckoned them to be "about 5 to 7 miles away" - How?
They reckoned it arrived at a distance of "100 to 200 feet" below their altitude - How?
They reckoned it arrived at a distance of "200 to 300 feet" in front of their plane - How?
They reckoned the unidentified craft was "about 200 to 300 feet" in diameter - How?

Remember, all this was observed from a plane flying at 10,000 feet at night!

I'm not questioning the observation of the phenomenon, rather its later interpretation and presentation.

It is interesting to compare the pretty definite observations above with those in the letter referred to in note 15 above.

http://www.nicap.org/docs/bethune_nicapfile_01.pdf

Paragraph (7) on page 3 in the letter (about the onboard psychiatrist) is hilarious, IMO. Worth reading just for that!

Interestingly, in paragraph (8) distance and "angular size" is discussed. Comments there suggest those closest to the 'action' were possibly not as naive as later interpreters/presenters often appear to be.

There are none of these "x to y hundred feet" claims (about half a mile is mentioned as possible distance). There was no confirmed radar contact. There is a lot of confusion about who, when, what and names.

I'm afraid this does sound like all too many UFO siting reports to me. Something - involving a light phenomenon - seems to have happened on an aircraft flight in northern latitudes at night. There were a number of witnesses to this on board at the time. But not the psychiatrist...

[XFool]

I should have mentioned that I have issues with all the points I underlined in the above extract.

Note scribbled in the margin: he looked, called it "flying saucer" said he didn't believe in it.

Psychiatrists, huh?

[odysseus2000]

The Knuth paper I referenced:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/

Is a genuine piece of research by a well regarded US Prof. Google him if you want more details. In the paper he looks at several ufo incidents stretching over decades & estimates the acceleration from the measured data & all are consistent with each other: An accelerations of many times what current human technology can do.

Prof Knuth then calculates if such acceleration would make interstellar travel possible; it would.

I can find nothing wrong with the paper & it was peer reviewed.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

A cat chasing a spot is a well known example of an optical lever, well known to any physicist.

The principal is used in ballistic galvanometers to measure small electrical currents.

To explain the uav as due to an optical lever would need a projector capable of projecting a radar & other wavelength reflecting surface over large distances.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Prof Knuth in the referenced paper also calculates the energy released from an high held object coming through the atmosphere down to sea level, it is very significant & almost impossible to miss & there would also be sonic booms.

Regards,

[Itsallaguess]

To explain the uav as due to an optical lever would need a projector capable of projecting a radar & other wavelength reflecting surface over large distances.

And yet it feels odd to see you being sceptical of that line of reasoning, whilst being much less sceptical of physics-defying, faster-than-light travelling, cow-stealing aliens...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[odysseus2000]

To explain the uav as due to an optical lever would need a projector capable of projecting a radar & other wavelength reflecting surface over large distances.

And yet it feels odd to see you being sceptical of that line of reasoning, whilst being much less sceptical of physics-defying, faster-than-light travelling, cow-stealing aliens...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

How would such a mechanism work?

It would need some method of projecting mass or some unknown material that is optically & radar opaque & with no sign of the transmitter nor any noticeable power consumption & in such a way that the transmitted material is not obscured by anything.

Is something like that possible? I have no idea, but all the data is consistent with 3 d shapes that are capable of extreme acceleration & which are visible in several wavelengths & which have been observed for over 70 years.

Regards,

[Itsallaguess]

To explain the uav as due to an optical lever would need a projector capable of projecting a radar & other wavelength reflecting surface over large distances.

And yet it feels odd to see you being sceptical of that line of reasoning, whilst being much less sceptical of physics-defying, faster-than-light travelling, cow-stealing aliens...

How would such a mechanism work?

It would need some method of projecting mass or some unknown material that is optically & radar opaque & with no sign of the transmitter nor any noticeable power consumption & in such a way that the transmitted material is not obscured by anything.

Is something like that possible?

I have no idea

I haven't either.

All I was trying to suggest was that it feels like quite a leap to dismiss currently-unknown earth-bound technology that might be capable of messing with man-made sensors, and yet declaring that the correct answer to this issue must be faster-than-light travelling spacecraft containing red-neck kidnapping, bovine-blood-sucking aliens, that's all...

Occam's razor isn't what they use before the probing starts, you know....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Sorcery]

A cat chasing a spot is a well known example of an optical lever, well known to any physicist.

Giving it a name is not an explanation. I only said I was reminded of cats chasing spots or very young humans following a spot on a wall as a possible explanation of what we are seeing from evidence from air force pilots and the like of uap's. Also a possible explanation of unrealistic accelerations. Are you a physicist then?

To explain the uav as due to an optical lever would need a projector capable of projecting a radar & other wavelength reflecting surface over large distances.

Well clouds might be a candidate, we detect them at a distance visually and with radar,

It's late now so I will leave my evidence for aliens leaving the planet until tomorrow. It also could be evidence of something else unknown, but it's very spectacular.

Cheers