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Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 22nd, 2023, 2:30 pm
by odysseus2000
CliffEdge wrote:Mike4 wrote:
There IS a slight problem with them though...
What on Earth could that be?
First you have to get combustion engines warm, then you have to stop them melting, then because they produce useable torque in a very limited range you have to have a gear box, then the fuel is produced with pollution all the way till it gets to the car & then yet more pollution as it’s burned with no ability to recover energy from braking so that goes to heat giving overall efficiencies in ideal conditions of 30%. Meanwhile the fuel is being relentlessly exhausted with millions of years of production being burned in centuries.
If anyone wanted to start from scratch now & presented a combustion engine idea to investors he/she would be laughed out of the room.
Combustion engines have an appropriate place in history books & museums.
Regards,
Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 22nd, 2023, 8:59 pm
by CliffEdge
odysseus2000 wrote:CliffEdge wrote:What on Earth could that be?
First you have to get combustion engines warm, then you have to stop them melting, then because they produce useable torque in a very limited range you have to have a gear box, then the fuel is produced with pollution all the way till it gets to the car & then yet more pollution as it’s burned with no ability to recover energy from braking so that goes to heat giving overall efficiencies in ideal conditions of 30%. Meanwhile the fuel is being relentlessly exhausted with millions of years of production being burned in centuries.
If anyone wanted to start from scratch now & presented a combustion engine idea to investors he/she would be laughed out of the room.
Combustion engines have an appropriate place in history books & museums.
Regards,
Oh what a lot of rubbish! Oil, gas, petrol etc. is stored sunlight. Highly concentrated stored sunlight. Easy to harvest. Easy to store. Easy to transport. Easy to convert into energy.
New petrol is easily produced from sunlight and a few basic chemicals, BTW.
Battery technology is not good enough, just as anti-gravity machines are not good enough.
Maybe the aliens will step in and "help"?
Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 22nd, 2023, 9:26 pm
by odysseus2000
CliffEdge wrote:odysseus2000 wrote:
First you have to get combustion engines warm, then you have to stop them melting, then because they produce useable torque in a very limited range you have to have a gear box, then the fuel is produced with pollution all the way till it gets to the car & then yet more pollution as it’s burned with no ability to recover energy from braking so that goes to heat giving overall efficiencies in ideal conditions of 30%. Meanwhile the fuel is being relentlessly exhausted with millions of years of production being burned in centuries.
If anyone wanted to start from scratch now & presented a combustion engine idea to investors he/she would be laughed out of the room.
Combustion engines have an appropriate place in history books & museums.
Regards,
Oh what a lot of rubbish! Oil, gas, petrol etc. is stored sunlight. Highly concentrated stored sunlight. Easy to harvest. Easy to store. Easy to transport. Easy to convert into energy.
New petrol is easily produced from sunlight and a few basic chemicals, BTW.
Battery technology is not good enough, just as anti-gravity machines are not good enough.
Maybe the aliens will step in and "help"?
There is nothing easy about drilling for oil, pumping & refining. All ugly polluting processes, all adding co2 before that released by burning.
E-fuels are a joke, pitiful efficiency, expensive & a crutch for people who do not know any elementary physics.
Regards,
Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 22nd, 2023, 9:46 pm
by CliffEdge
...changes to EU policy have now opened the door to allow new cars running on synthetic e-fuel to be sold from new past 2035, with the UK government likely to follow suit.
https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/synthetic-fuels-explained
Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 23rd, 2023, 12:05 am
by odysseus2000
Yes, but they are still a joke!
Regards,
Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 23rd, 2023, 7:49 am
by GrahamPlatt
If you don’t mind, would you please take the Battery vs ICE argument elsewhere.
This is a thread about battery tech. In the Science forum.
Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 23rd, 2023, 11:04 am
by CliffEdge
GrahamPlatt wrote:If you don’t mind, would you please take the Battery vs ICE argument elsewhere.
This is a thread about battery tech. In the Science forum.
Sorry. I guess the only justification is to analyse the purpose and performance of battery tech within the contexts that it needs to be applied. Where its comparative performance to other methods is relevant.
I guess that requires a reliable crystal ball (i.e. nobody knows) as to whether the necessary improvements will happen.
But the ICE versus BEV narrows the debate too much, agreed.
So nuff said.
Re: Battery tech
Posted: October 23rd, 2023, 1:42 pm
by chas49
GrahamPlatt wrote:If you don’t mind, would you please take the Battery vs ICE argument elsewhere.
This is a thread about battery tech. In the Science forum.
Moderator Message:
Agreed. Please stay on-topic for this board.
Just a note - please report this sort of thing, rather than posting about it - thanks!
(chas49)
Re: Battery tech
Posted: November 6th, 2023, 7:56 am
by GrahamPlatt
“Solid Hydrogen”
A Norwegian initiative, about to be trialled in Denmark
https://sifted.eu/articles/solar-energy ... d-hydrogen
Re: Battery tech
Posted: November 6th, 2023, 5:21 pm
by odysseus2000
Far too few details about the proposed technology to know if it a possible practical product or vapor ware.
What is the basic physics, what are the costs etc etc
Regards,
Re: Battery tech
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 6:23 pm
by CliffEdge
Looks like the answer to all our problems. Might make BEVs viable. Ody will be pleased.
Re: Battery tech
Posted: November 17th, 2023, 9:09 pm
by GrahamPlatt
New “hard carbon” cathode brings sodium-ion batteries up to the level of Li-ion energy densities
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/sodi ... 48965.html(
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10. ... .202302647 - for odysseus2000)
Re: Battery tech
Posted: November 18th, 2023, 1:42 pm
by odysseus2000
Super interesting!
Thank you for the technical link which suggests to me, that there are no obvious limitations to scale production of this technology & if so the cost per unit of energy stored should decline which is a blessing along with the removal of expensive elements.
The questions which remain seem to fit into two camps:
1 Does the performance degrade with time, environment, et al.
2 Is this battery design rugged enough to tolerate vibration & other mechanical stresses.
Regards,
Re: Battery tech
Posted: January 10th, 2024, 4:57 pm
by GrahamPlatt
https://slguardian.org/chinese-firm-dev ... -50-years/Chinese startup Betavolt proposes to start selling atomic powered coin-sized batteries sometime next year.
Low power, but seemingly quite safe and environmentally friendly. Remarkable.
Re: Battery tech
Posted: January 10th, 2024, 5:57 pm
by kiloran
GrahamPlatt wrote:https://slguardian.org/chinese-firm-developed-nuclear-battery-that-can-produce-power-for-50-years/
Chinese startup Betavolt proposes to start selling atomic powered coin-sized batteries sometime next year.
Low power, but seemingly quite safe and environmentally friendly. Remarkable.
You can say that again! 100 microwatts!
--kiloran
Re: Battery tech
Posted: January 11th, 2024, 1:15 am
by scotia
GrahamPlatt wrote:https://slguardian.org/chinese-firm-developed-nuclear-battery-that-can-produce-power-for-50-years/
Chinese startup Betavolt proposes to start selling atomic powered coin-sized batteries sometime next year.
Low power, but seemingly quite safe and environmentally friendly. Remarkable.
I quote from the last part of the article
They aim to develop batteries with longer service lives ranging from 2 to 30 years using isotopes such as strontium-90, palladium-147, and deuterium.Strontium 90 is a possible candidate, Palladium 147 does not exist - if they meant Palladium 107, then it has a half life of 6.5M years, and Deuterium is not radioactive.
Re: Battery tech
Posted: January 11th, 2024, 10:39 am
by 88V8
scotia wrote:GrahamPlatt wrote:Chinese startup Betavolt proposes to start selling atomic powered coin-sized batteries sometime next year.
...Deuterium is not radioactive.
No, but it's an enhancer. Used in fusion reactors. Not sure what the application is here, presumably bumps up the output.
V8
Re: Battery tech
Posted: January 11th, 2024, 10:58 am
by Tedx
II read a few articles about this a couple of years ago - 'Nuclear Diamond Batteries'
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2020/jan ... ttery.html
Re: Battery tech
Posted: January 11th, 2024, 8:24 pm
by scotia
88V8 wrote:scotia wrote:...Deuterium is not radioactive.
No, but it's an enhancer. Used in fusion reactors. Not sure what the application is here, presumably bumps up the output.
V8
It was used in the early Joint European Torus experiments as fusion fuel in the D-D (deuterium-deuterium) reaction, but never exceeded 0.6 output to input. It was also used in the D-T (deuterium-tritium) reaction with a slightly better ratio (but still well below 1). I'm afraid there is not the slightest chance of these fusion reactions producing power in a button battery
P.S. many years ago I worked on the D-D reaction using a particle accelerator and made fundamental measurements on the reaction products.
Re: Battery tech
Posted: January 12th, 2024, 12:00 am
by odysseus2000
scotia wrote:88V8 wrote:No, but it's an enhancer. Used in fusion reactors. Not sure what the application is here, presumably bumps up the output.
V8
It was used in the early Joint European Torus experiments as fusion fuel in the D-D (deuterium-deuterium) reaction, but never exceeded 0.6 output to input. It was also used in the D-T (deuterium-tritium) reaction with a slightly better ratio (but still well below 1). I'm afraid there is not the slightest chance of these fusion reactions producing power in a button battery
P.S. many years ago I worked on the D-D reaction using a particle accelerator and made fundamental measurements on the reaction products.
D and Trit are both positively charged, isotopes of hydrogen so that to bring say a d and t together, you have to exceed the electrostatic repulsion. There are a few possibilities:
Supply a lot of energy, so e.g. you use a fission explosion to speed the nuclei up so that their energies exceed the repulsion, but obvious drawback.
Add "heavy electrons (muons) and has the muon is 207 electron masses the nuclei in a d-d molecule can come so close that fission happens and energy is released, but making muons requires energy and muons often stick to the residual nucleus so that over all efficiency is less than one.
Rely on stellar process at high temperatures:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton–proton_chain
None of these processes are suitable for coin cells!
Regards,