Micro bacterial life found on Mars in 1977?

[odysseus2000]

Interesting interview with Dr. Levin who was science leader of the Viking landers looking for life project in the 1970’s. During this 41 minute interview Dr. Levin describes his experiment & the control which he argues showed clear evidence of micro bacterial life on Mars. He goes on to discuss future experiments, some of which were forbidden by NASA & the State Department, the possibility of life being seasonal & image evidence for multi-cellular life:

https://youtu.be/V2poyWnusmQ?si=9TIOdQ-oGmH_jS9R

It would be interesting if there are alternate explanations to invalidate Dr. Levin’s results.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

Wiki page on the claims that Viking did find bacterial life:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Levin

Regards,

[stevensfo]

Wiki page on the claims that Viking did find bacterial life:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Levin

Regards,

Any idea why NASA declared that they hadn't found signs of life?

Steve

[CliffEdge]

Wiki page on the claims that Viking did find bacterial life:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Levin

Regards,

Any idea why NASA declared that they hadn't found signs of life?

Steve

The experiments were found to be inconclusive.

[Gerry557]

The microbes probably had flares and long hair so discounted on not being clean shaven.

[odysseus2000]

Any idea why NASA declared that they hadn't found signs of life?

Steve

The experiments were found to be inconclusive.

In what ways?

Regards,

[ReformedCharacter]

The Case for Extant Life on Mars and Its Possible Detection by the Viking Labeled Release Experiment

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6445182/

RC

[odysseus2000]

The Case for Extant Life on Mars and Its Possible Detection by the Viking Labeled Release Experiment

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6445182/

RC

Thank you!

Super interesting document.

The objections seem far weaker than the data. According to the interview a Chinese lander might confirm the results.

As Mars is so close to Earth the chance of transmission between the planets following various known impacts are so large that as of yet one can not say life exists everywhere, but Levin was sufficiently concerned that he advised no Martian samples should come to earth in case Mars has evolved its own biology that might cause trouble on earth.


Regards,

[Gerry557]

The 2017 film, Life with Jake Gyllenhaal covered this subject.

[stevensfo]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6445182/

RC

Thank you!

Super interesting document.

The objections seem far weaker than the data. According to the interview a Chinese lander might confirm the results.

As Mars is so close to Earth the chance of transmission between the planets following various known impacts are so large that as of yet one can not say life exists everywhere, but Levin was sufficiently concerned that he advised no Martian samples should come to earth in case Mars has evolved its own biology that might cause trouble on earth.


Regards,

I admit that I was about to point out the possibility of bacterial contamination from earth, but then I read about the control samples heated to 160'C for 3 hours.

The only way for the data to be inconclusive is if the positive results are really from some chemical (not life) process and this high temperature control merely resulted in a chemical reaction that stopped this process.

Surely there must be plenty of inorganic chemists who could suggest or replicate such a process?

Hard to believe this was nearly 50 years ago!

Steve

PS Yes, I do enjoy a good SciFi movie, but I do agree that samples should never be allowed on earth until after years of testing. A lab on the moon? What happened to the south Americans on first exposure to European viruses and bacteria should serve as a lesson.

[odysseus2000]

Thank you!

Super interesting document.

The objections seem far weaker than the data. According to the interview a Chinese lander might confirm the results.

As Mars is so close to Earth the chance of transmission between the planets following various known impacts are so large that as of yet one can not say life exists everywhere, but Levin was sufficiently concerned that he advised no Martian samples should come to earth in case Mars has evolved its own biology that might cause trouble on earth.


Regards,

I admit that I was about to point out the possibility of bacterial contamination from earth, but then I read about the control samples heated to 160'C for 3 hours.

The only way for the data to be inconclusive is if the positive results are really from some chemical (not life) process and this high temperature control merely resulted in a chemical reaction that stopped this process.

Surely there must be plenty of inorganic chemists who could suggest or replicate such a process?

Hard to believe this was nearly 50 years ago!

Steve

PS Yes, I do enjoy a good SciFi movie, but I do agree that samples should never be allowed on earth until after years of testing. A lab on the moon? What happened to the south Americans on first exposure to European viruses and bacteria should serve as a lesson.

There were also measurements showing seasonal changes in atmospheric gases & according to the interview suggestions of multi cell organisms on the surface, but as stated in the interview no high resolution cameras to look for such things have currently been sent.

If multi cell life exists it maybe in valleys were there is some protection from uv, cosmic rays & solar energetic particles. A lot of this could be looked for with flying cameras.

It is all kind of strange. In the 1970’s there was potential evidence for life on Mars which would be a Nobel Prize discovery, but this has not been followed up although there are suggestions that China may have such follow up measurements planned.

Regards,

[CliffEdge]

I admit that I was about to point out the possibility of bacterial contamination from earth, but then I read about the control samples heated to 160'C for 3 hours.

The only way for the data to be inconclusive is if the positive results are really from some chemical (not life) process and this high temperature control merely resulted in a chemical reaction that stopped this process.

Surely there must be plenty of inorganic chemists who could suggest or replicate such a process?

Hard to believe this was nearly 50 years ago!

Steve

PS Yes, I do enjoy a good SciFi movie, but I do agree that samples should never be allowed on earth until after years of testing. A lab on the moon? What happened to the south Americans on first exposure to European viruses and bacteria should serve as a lesson.

There were also measurements showing seasonal changes in atmospheric gases & according to the interview suggestions of multi cell organisms on the surface, but as stated in the interview no high resolution cameras to look for such things have currently been sent.

If multi cell life exists it maybe in valleys were there is some protection from uv, cosmic rays & solar energetic particles. A lot of this could be looked for with flying cameras.

It is all kind of strange. In the 1970’s there was potential evidence for life on Mars which would be a Nobel Prize discovery, but this has not been followed up although there are suggestions that China may have such follow up measurements planned.

Regards,

Ah now I get it.

[88V8]

It is all kind of strange. In the 1970’s there was potential evidence for life on Mars which would be a Nobel Prize discovery, but this has not been followed up although there are suggestions that China may have such follow up measurements planned.

Ah now I get it.

So, what, the Chinese already have samples which they cultured and released in 2019?

V8

[DrFfybes]

... Levin was sufficiently concerned that he advised no Martian samples should come to earth in case Mars has evolved its own biology that might cause trouble on earth.

It's fine, we'll be prepared.

I know this as I've just been watching the Covid Enquiry on the news and have full faith that all lessons will be learnt from the tens of thousands of pages of reports.

[stevensfo]

... Levin was sufficiently concerned that he advised no Martian samples should come to earth in case Mars has evolved its own biology that might cause trouble on earth.

It's fine, we'll be prepared.

I know this as I've just been watching the Covid Enquiry on the news and have full faith that all lessons will be learnt from the tens of thousands of pages of reports.

Maybe you could add a smiley to indicate the sarcasm. Not everyone has the dry humour that we have.

Though maybe a lead-lined underground lab with filtered air would be sufficient. Send in a chimpanzee and Matt Hancock.

The chimpanzee will perform electron microscopy, use aerobic and anaerobic hoods to culture the samples and attempt to classify any cells found, followed by DNA analysis.

Matt Hancock will be in charge of the bananas.

Steve

[odysseus2000]

Ah now I get it.

So, what, the Chinese already have samples which they cultured and released in 2019?

V8

Do you have more details?


Regards,

[CliffEdge]

So, what, the Chinese already have samples which they cultured and released in 2019?

V8

Do you have more details?


Regards,

Where's that smiley face when you need it?

[ursaminortaur]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6445182/

RC

Thank you!

Super interesting document.

The objections seem far weaker than the data. According to the interview a Chinese lander might confirm the results.

As Mars is so close to Earth the chance of transmission between the planets following various known impacts are so large that as of yet one can not say life exists everywhere, but Levin was sufficiently concerned that he advised no Martian samples should come to earth in case Mars has evolved its own biology that might cause trouble on earth.


Regards,

If the life on Mars was transmitted to Mars from Earth then tons of similar transmissions have already occurred as meteoroids blasted off Mars have travelled to the Earth and another one could happen tomorrow. Hence any samples returned from Mars would be unlikely to bring anything Earth hasn't already seen before. Also viruses and bacteria on Earth are rarely able to cross species barriers so something from Mars would not be likely to survive on Earth unless it had made a very short round trip and happened to meet whatever it had once infected on Earth before it started that round trip.

Life which had developed totally separately from that on Earth would likely find infecting Earth life even harder. Viruses in particular would find infecting Earth life forms challenging since they would have by chance to firstly have some means of getting inside cells and then secondly have some means of taking over the infected cell's machinery and using it to produce more of this virus. Neither is likely if the virus has never come across Earth cells before.

[odysseus2000]

Thank you!

Super interesting document.

The objections seem far weaker than the data. According to the interview a Chinese lander might confirm the results.

As Mars is so close to Earth the chance of transmission between the planets following various known impacts are so large that as of yet one can not say life exists everywhere, but Levin was sufficiently concerned that he advised no Martian samples should come to earth in case Mars has evolved its own biology that might cause trouble on earth.


Regards,

If the life on Mars was transmitted to Mars from Earth then tons of similar transmissions have already occurred as meteoroids blasted off Mars have travelled to the Earth and another one could happen tomorrow. Hence any samples returned from Mars would be unlikely to bring anything Earth hasn't already seen before. Also viruses and bacteria on Earth are rarely able to cross species barriers so something from Mars would not be likely to survive on Earth unless it had made a very short round trip and happened to meet whatever it had once infected on Earth before it started that round trip.

Life which had developed totally separately from that on Earth would likely find infecting Earth life even harder. Viruses in particular would find infecting Earth life forms challenging since they would have by chance to firstly have some means of getting inside cells and then secondly have some means of taking over the infected cell's machinery and using it to produce more of this virus. Neither is likely if the virus has never come across Earth cells before.

Wasn’t the data from the Vikings lander that suggested bacteria, indicative, if true, that what ever was on mars had similar life needs to Earth bacteria? That could imply contamination before the experiment or if it was a real signal that was seen in two experiments about 3000 miles apart lots of bacteria on Mars that shares at least some characteristics with Earth life.

All these kinds of questions were considered during the Apollo landings & the returning Astronaught were isolated in classic aluminum trailer campers, one or more of which is on display at the Huntsville Space & Rocket centre, but when nothing happened thoughts of lunar contamination fell away. If bacteria can travel between Earth & Mars, then presumably they will also travel to the moon. The moon may not support life, possibly indicating that Mars can not, although Mars is potentially a lot more hospitable than the Moon.

Arguments that alien evolved microbes might be like species dependent bacteria or have virus that can’t penetrate Earth cells can be reassuring or a trap for some currently unknown mechanisms to cause trouble. An orbital or lunar laboratory for testing seems like a prudent insurance policy.

If Mars really did once have seas during a period when the sun was more powerful, the conditions that some think lead to cellular life on Earth were presumably once there on Mars, but maybe for too short a time.

I still find it surprising that after the Viking discoveries no more looking for life missions arrived, or perhaps they did & I haven’t discovered them yet.

Regards,

[odysseus2000]

This is an interesting follow up article covering several aspects including the lack of life hunting missions due to other priorities & the none confirmation of Viking results with two other experiments:

https://spaceflightnow.com/2016/07/25/4 ... e-on-mars/

Regards,