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Church of England

Religion and Philosophy
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we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
Dod101
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Re: Church of England

#646103

Postby Dod101 » February 10th, 2024, 1:39 pm

didds wrote:
Dod101 wrote: The irony is that when plans are announced to close a village church, the locals, who may attend church only for the occasional christening, wedding or funeral are usually very vocal in their opposition to closure. Unfortunately they are not prepared to sign up to financially support the church.


there are patterns here.

CF village pubs, and once a year visitors. To financially support that pub doesn't even need anyone to "sign up" - just walk in and buy a drink (soft drinks are available :-) ).

Same same .


Not sure I understand. No ‘signing up’ is required at any church I know. People are welcomed whether as a one off visit or if becoming a regular. Of course some sort of offering is usually expected but there is no penalty for not making a contribution.

Dod

88V8
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Re: Church of England

#646109

Postby 88V8 » February 10th, 2024, 2:55 pm

Dod101 wrote:
didds wrote:...village pubs, and once a year visitors. To financially support that pub doesn't even need anyone to "sign up" - just walk in and buy a drink (soft drinks are available :-) ).


Not sure I understand. No ‘signing up’ is required at any church I know. People are welcomed whether as a one off visit or if becoming a regular. Of course some sort of offering is usually expected but there is no penalty for not making a contribution.

Not in this world perhaps....

V8

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Re: Church of England

#646179

Postby stewamax » February 11th, 2024, 10:57 am

88V8 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Of course some sort of offering is usually expected but there is no penalty for not making a contribution.

Not in this world perhaps....

I pictured St Peter jangling his keys, holding open the Pearly Gate in one hand, a proffered collection plate in the other, and a sign on the wall "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"

A great moral dilemma... get it wrong and it is red-hot pitchfork time

didds
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Re: Church of England

#646196

Postby didds » February 11th, 2024, 11:58 am

Dod101 wrote:Not sure I understand. No ‘signing up’ is required at any church I know.
Dod



Dunno what you meant by this previously then?

Dod101 wrote:
The irony is that when plans are announced to close a village church, the locals, who may attend church only for the occasional christening, wedding or funeral are usually very vocal in their opposition to closure. Unfortunately they are not prepared to sign up to financially support the church.

Dod101
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Re: Church of England

#646227

Postby Dod101 » February 11th, 2024, 1:41 pm

didds wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Not sure I understand. No ‘signing up’ is required at any church I know.
Dod



Dunno what you meant by this previously then?

Dod101 wrote:
The irony is that when plans are announced to close a village church, the locals, who may attend church only for the occasional christening, wedding or funeral are usually very vocal in their opposition to closure. Unfortunately they are not prepared to sign up to financially support the church.


Well no church that I know requires a contribution to its finances for anyone to get over the door or even to become a regular attender. That is what I mean by ‘signing up’. Obviously it is expected that a regular attender will understand that a church cannot exist on air and so the attendee is likely to make a regular contribution of his/her own volition .

Usually when a decision is taken to close a church it is because the financial drain to maintain the premises is just too much. Quite often regular attendance may be down to less than 20, sometimes single figures, but they often seem to close voluntarily. My comment about locals objecting to a church closing refers to what appears to be a lack of appreciation that churches do not exist in a vacuum nor often, do they have a big organisation behind them, able to maintain every individual church. They need local support and seldom get it from those who do not attend and yet it is those locals who are often quite vocal in complaining about the church closing.

Dod

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Re: Church of England

#646356

Postby didds » February 12th, 2024, 9:50 am

yeah , understood all of that (hence my previous CF village pubs etc). I just didnt get what you mean by "signing up" to a church etc,.

cheers

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Re: Church of England

#648437

Postby 1nvest » February 21st, 2024, 8:48 pm

Adamski wrote:I realise religion seen by many here as somewhat wacky and outdated. But I feel little sad about the imminent extinction of the church of England. Having been brought up in it (and methodist), and attended on and off over my adult life.

The decline now seems certain given the attendences in the pews are largely very elderly, except family services, which often I think is basically childminding. Once this generation passes on, I guess churches will convert to housing and museums.

I think secularisation is largely the reason, with society at large being un-religious, and un-churched now. But the Liberal bishops and Welby have to take blame too.

If the bloke/woman at the front thinks it's clap trap, why should I bother? Indeed.

The woke/climate change/lgbt+/politically correct version of christianity is a turn off for those in the pews. I think even if they don't believe themselves, they'd be better preaching a biblical christianity, if they were genuinely interested in saving the CoE.

As it is I guess extinction in a generation is inevitable ,and the bishops know this so just hanging on to their palaces and pensions long enough before the game's up. Do you agree, or even care?

Yes CoE churches are mostly tumbleweed. A church is the people. Other communities are more prepared to come together as a community and support those in need. CoE, mostly white (fading indigenous) have opted to go down the divorce/break-ups/others pathway. Our local catholic church is packed/over-flowing at every mass. As is the local Mosque. Local CoE's are rarely occupied, mostly when weddings or funerals and even then there's loads of room.

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Re: Church of England

#649033

Postby Nimrod103 » February 25th, 2024, 7:30 am

1nvest wrote:
Adamski wrote:I realise religion seen by many here as somewhat wacky and outdated. But I feel little sad about the imminent extinction of the church of England. Having been brought up in it (and methodist), and attended on and off over my adult life.

The decline now seems certain given the attendences in the pews are largely very elderly, except family services, which often I think is basically childminding. Once this generation passes on, I guess churches will convert to housing and museums.

I think secularisation is largely the reason, with society at large being un-religious, and un-churched now. But the Liberal bishops and Welby have to take blame too.

If the bloke/woman at the front thinks it's clap trap, why should I bother? Indeed.

The woke/climate change/lgbt+/politically correct version of christianity is a turn off for those in the pews. I think even if they don't believe themselves, they'd be better preaching a biblical christianity, if they were genuinely interested in saving the CoE.

As it is I guess extinction in a generation is inevitable ,and the bishops know this so just hanging on to their palaces and pensions long enough before the game's up. Do you agree, or even care?

Yes CoE churches are mostly tumbleweed. A church is the people. Other communities are more prepared to come together as a community and support those in need. CoE, mostly white (fading indigenous) have opted to go down the divorce/break-ups/others pathway. Our local catholic church is packed/over-flowing at every mass. As is the local Mosque. Local CoE's are rarely occupied, mostly when weddings or funerals and even then there's loads of room.


Surely the foundation of any church or mosque has to be a belief in the supernatural, and as a result compelled to follow a set of rules laid down thousands of years ago. Don’t you find it very worrying that adherents of Catholicism and Islam have a far greater belief in something which is unproven by science [Deletion] than “adherents “ of the Church of England? The latter would seem to be taking a rational view of life, death and the real World. [Deletion]

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Suggesting followers of a particular religious belief are hysterical and/or suggesting they are lunatics is disparaging to to them and has been deleted. Please follow the rules of this site when posting. Thanks. - Chris

1nvest
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Re: Church of England

#649160

Postby 1nvest » February 25th, 2024, 4:33 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Surely the foundation of any church or mosque has to be a belief in the supernatural, and as a result compelled to follow a set of rules laid down thousands of years ago. Don’t you find it very worrying that adherents of Catholicism and Islam have a far greater belief in something which is unproven by science [Deletion] than “adherents “ of the Church of England? The latter would seem to be taking a rational view of life, death and the real World. [Deletion]

I'm Catholic, attend church, but have little regard for the doctrine, I partake for the community spirit. Helps others, but periodically that turns around and supports you in times of stress/difficulties in ways that acquaintances down the pub or friends/family cannot. White males such as myself have been social engineered to be outcasts, seen policies that have driven declines in family values and community spirit (isolation), whereas other communities are generally more communal. The community decline is even more pronounced for CofE, I imagine that some elderly CofE widows who have rarely attended church can be very isolated/lonely both physically and spiritually. In every case across time/history the indigenous are made outcasts and their population reduced to minorities. The engineering to dissuade families (high divorce rates, reduced birth rates, not attending community gatherings etc.) are just directed in order for others to ultimately prevail. Another couple of decades and Britain will more likely be predominately non-white, with a Islamic majority as that has the most aggressive expansion/dominance policies (out breed/migrate, consider all others as evil). There are already signs that that doctrine has permeated right through both Local Authorities and State as discriminatory evidence is indicating (return of defaced Passports/Birth Certificates etc. for having the 'wrong' religion declared on the forms).

Spiritually, I opine it to be less rational to believe that scientifically the universe ('god') doesn't exist. When children are raised in the absence of anything other than they're just a insignificant single ant of billions then that's inclined to induce selfish behaviour and isolation. The CofE is reaping what it has sowed - forget family values, marry for the party and divorce/separate some time later, doesn't matter if you marry into the same sex, disregard everyone else - just think of yourself etc. The CofE is founded on a pure selfish foundation - the desire of a King to divorce his wife, not honour his for-better-or-worse promise. But so also do most if not all other religions have their negative side histories. You have the option to detach from each/all ... isolate, or affiliate to the one you opine to be the least worst and at least have some additional element of community. Each to their own.

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Re: Church of England

#649178

Postby Nimrod103 » February 25th, 2024, 5:31 pm

1nvest wrote:The CofE is founded on a pure selfish foundation - the desire of a King to divorce his wife, not honour his for-better-or-worse promise. But so also do most if not all other religions have their negative side histories.


An accident of history. AIUI annulment of marriages (by the Pope) was relatively common when dynastic requirements demanded. But of course only for kings and princes. It was Henry VIII's misfortune that he had been forced to marry a Spanish princess, and the Pope at that time was under the control of her brother in law, the Spanish King. Up until the time of Edward the Confessor it had been quite common for English kings to take more than one wife, but that practise was discontinued under the ever so saintly Edward, and the puritanical Normans.
Anyway, the divorce gave rise to the Reformation, and for the first time English Christians were able to read for themselves what it actually said in the Bible. As I recall, the Bible doesn't say anything about just having one wife. That was an invention of one of the Popes.

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Re: Church of England

#649189

Postby bungeejumper » February 25th, 2024, 6:13 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:As I recall, the Bible doesn't say anything about just having one wife. That was an invention of one of the Popes.

Neatly counterbalanced by the recollection that the Koran doesn't ban alcohol - it was added much later as an afterthought by some killjoy religious council or other. Not that Turkey or Egypt (or Indonesia for that matter) would ever have had much truck with a ban in any case. :D

Speaking of which, one result of the Reformation was that churches stopped serving beer in church. (A tradition that had put bums on seats and thus helped to save souls.) It's an odd thing to look out of my window at the 15th century CofE church across the road, and reflect that it would once have exercised a doubly spiritual function. Right now, the church is planning an entertainment event at which alcohol will be sold on the premises, and apparently they've got to get a special dispensation from the bishop. I don't think the catholic French would have spent much time worrying about that little problem. ;)

BJ

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Re: Church of England

#649207

Postby kempiejon » February 25th, 2024, 7:40 pm

My religious studies is a bit pop but I'm sure the old testament was OK with many wives but by the new edition just one wife to which the husband should be true and vice versa for the ladies. The Torah is good with polygamy but later on the rabbis decided against it, at least one of the sects still allows it. The Quran does say intoxication is haram though doesn't specifically mention alcohol, nor heroin, pot etc. God gives you a body in perfect condition and you should keep it as such until you return it to him.

There was a fair bit of wine in the bible wasn't there, all that bibbing, turning water into it but I think Jesus swore off the drink, was that at the last super, until he met the disciples in heaven.

Of course back when the all the rules were worked out and then later written down the water wasn't that good to drink.


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