Welby: I forgive serial abuser John Smyth

[BellaHubby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj929xd84e3o

Justin Welby has told the BBC he forgives a serial abuser at the heart of a scandal that led to his resignation as Archbishop of Canterbury.

Is he in a position to forgive? Surely it is for the victims of the abuse to decide on forgiveness.

bh

[Mike4]

Or a higher authority, even...

[Hallucigenia]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj929xd84e3o

Justin Welby has told the BBC he forgives a serial abuser at the heart of a scandal that led to his resignation as Archbishop of Canterbury.

Is he in a position to forgive? Surely it is for the victims of the abuse to decide on forgiveness.

bh

Read beyond the headline :

Welby said his forgiveness of John Smyth - arguably the most prolific abuser associated with the Church of England - was "irrelevant" and it was more important to help victims "rebuild their lives"....

Asked by the BBC if he would forgive Smyth, Welby said: "Yes.  I think if he was alive and I saw him, but it's not me he's abused.

"He's abused the victims and survivors.  So whether I forgive or not is, to a large extent, irrelevant."

Welby said it was more important for victims to be "cared for... liberated to rebuild their lives" by the Church than to speak about forgiveness.

Pressed on how victims might react, Welby said he would never suggest they should also forgive.

Asked whether he wanted to be forgiven by Smyth's victims, Welby said: "Everyone wants to be forgiven but to demand forgiveness is to abuse again."

And I think you can argue that the church is a "victim" of this kind of thing, albeit not with the devastating effect on the lives of the abusees, in that these stories corrode the reputation of the church in general. So to that extent, it's not an unreasonable thing for the head of the Church at the time to have a view on, even if there is a risk in doing so of journalists trivialising the suffering of the abusees.

And the forgiveness of trespasses is something that Christianity in general is pretty hot on, regardless of whether you're directly involved or not, and no matter how hard it is to do - it's just their thing.

But anyway - always sensible to read beyond the clickbait headlines.

[Harry23]

And the forgiveness of trespasses is something that Christianity in general is pretty hot on, regardless of whether you're directly involved or not, and no matter how hard it is to do - it's just their thing.

Yes, although it's handled differently in the various denominations. If Welby had been a Roman Catholic priest, then he would have the job of giving absolution as part of the sacrament of confession, which they do on an individual basis. I was brought up in the Church of England, where confession and forgiveness was performed collectively as part of the liturgy of the service. We would repeat the formula given in the prayer book without specifying our sins and were promised forgiveness by God, not the vicar.

[BellaHubby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj929xd84e3o


Is he in a position to forgive? Surely it is for the victims of the abuse to decide on forgiveness.

bh

Read beyond the headline :

Welby said his forgiveness of John Smyth - arguably the most prolific abuser associated with the Church of England - was "irrelevant" and it was more important to help victims "rebuild their lives"....

Asked by the BBC if he would forgive Smyth, Welby said: "Yes.  I think if he was alive and I saw him, but it's not me he's abused.

"He's abused the victims and survivors.  So whether I forgive or not is, to a large extent, irrelevant."

Welby said it was more important for victims to be "cared for... liberated to rebuild their lives" by the Church than to speak about forgiveness.

Pressed on how victims might react, Welby said he would never suggest they should also forgive.

Asked whether he wanted to be forgiven by Smyth's victims, Welby said: "Everyone wants to be forgiven but to demand forgiveness is to abuse again."

And I think you can argue that the church is a "victim" of this kind of thing, albeit not with the devastating effect on the lives of the abusees, in that these stories corrode the reputation of the church in general. So to that extent, it's not an unreasonable thing for the head of the Church at the time to have a view on, even if there is a risk in doing so of journalists trivialising the suffering of the abusees.

And the forgiveness of trespasses is something that Christianity in general is pretty hot on, regardless of whether you're directly involved or not, and no matter how hard it is to do - it's just their thing.

But anyway - always sensible to read beyond the clickbait headlines.

Yes,I read the whole article, though I did not see the full interview, and thought the "yes but" was wrong. He should have simply said he was not in a position to forgive, that is for the victims. I did see a short extract of the interview on BBC news, and when asked if he forgave Smyth, he replied "Yes........LONG pause....... but...". Certainly sounded like he personally forgave Smyth, despite his subsequent qualification.
And I think it's stretching it a bit to say that the church is a victim. The reputational damage to the church is nothing compared to what the victims had to suffer.

bh

[stewamax]

If Welby had been a Roman Catholic priest, then he would have the job of giving absolution as part of the sacrament of confession, which they do on an individual basis. I was brought up in the Church of England, where confession and forgiveness was performed collectively as part of the liturgy of the service. We would repeat the formula given in the prayer book without specifying our sins and were promised forgiveness by God, not the vicar.

Absolutely correct.

An RC penitant admits sins personally ('Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa' etc) in the Confiteor or its vernacular equivalent, and can receive absolution by the priest for specific sins confessed.

A C of E penitant admits non-specific sins in the General Confession and asks for God's absolution ('We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; and we have done those things which we ought not to have done; ... But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us, miserable offenders.

[gryffron]

Although your headline is very predictable, to be fair that isn't really what he said.

Welby said he forgives Smyth for costing him his job. Not for his other sins, which he clearly said was "up to the victims"

Gryff

[Leothebear]

All very well being regretful now the cat's well and truly out of the bag. The fact remains that just like the Roman Catholic church, the Anglican church has for decades, if not centuries, tolerated child abuse which, when discovered has been swept under the carpet. Could be true of all organised religions for all I know. All conducted under the fake cloak of holiness. Beyond despicable.

Far too little. Far too late.

[stevensfo]

All very well being regretful now the cat's well and truly out of the bag. The fact remains that just like the Roman Catholic church, the Anglican church has for decades, if not centuries, tolerated child abuse which, when discovered has been swept under the carpet. Could be true of all organised religions for all I know. All conducted under the fake cloak of holiness. Beyond despicable.

Far too little. Far too late.

Could be true of all organised religions for all I know.

You should add orphanages, childrens homes and quite a few schools to that list!

Steve

[Harry23]

Could be true of all organised religions for all I know.
You should add orphanages, childrens homes and quite a few schools to that list!
Steve

Indeed this is a tragedy that we need to look all across society to root out, as well as in other countries.
Perhaps there's an analogy with the slave trade; it was first campaigned against as an evil iirc by a British cleric within the British colonies and was first banned there before taking the campaign further afield. Yet the British empire and ex-colonies still get the largest share of the moral blame. Child abuse got recognised as an institutional problem in the Christian churches, and they have taken a reputational hit as a result; other religions and institutions following on afterwards haven't been pilloried so much in the public arena.

[stevensfo]

Could be true of all organised religions for all I know.
You should add orphanages, childrens homes and quite a few schools to that list!
Steve

Indeed this is a tragedy that we need to look all across society to root out, as well as in other countries.
Perhaps there's an analogy with the slave trade; it was first campaigned against as an evil iirc by a British cleric within the British colonies and was first banned there before taking the campaign further afield. Yet the British empire and ex-colonies still get the largest share of the moral blame. Child abuse got recognised as an institutional problem in the Christian churches, and they have taken a reputational hit as a result; other religions and institutions following on afterwards haven't been pilloried so much in the public arena.

Good luck. According to an old friend, since deceased, many staff in such homes were obliged to sign documents waiving their rights to pensions if they disclosed what really went on. Though I have no way of knowing how true that was. Difficult to believe!

I think that the Europeans got the idea from the Muslim Ottoman slave trade centuries before, which wreaked havoc in the Mediterranean and along the English coast.

Then the Europeans joined in and certainly, the Spanish slave trade with ports in South America and infamous for their cruelty.

Yes, the British were among the first to try and stop the slave trade. Just read the history of Mauritius where the French farmers almost revolted when the Brits, following the Napoleonic wars, banned slavery.

Or the British army in Tanzania, early 1900s, trying to stop Muslim Arab slave traders.

Yet the Brits will always be cast as the baddies in schools. So much easier to teach and closer to the tabloid press idea that the world stops at Dover!


Steve

[gryffron]

I think that the Europeans got the idea from the Muslim Ottoman slave trade centuries before, which wreaked havoc in the Mediterranean and along the English coast.

Then the Europeans joined in and certainly, the Spanish slave trade with ports in South America and infamous for their cruelty.

It’s the oldest story in Africa - literally. What are thought to be the oldest hieroglyphs in Egypt tell the story of a west African slave caravan travelling up the Niger River. The tribes there have been enslaving each other since before the beginning of history.

So Europeans got the idea because West African traders offered to sell them slaves - for peanuts/trinkets. The slave industry already existed when the European ships arrived there. And yes, Europeans scaled this up to massive levels. But they certainly didn’t invent it. Europeans were still living in caves when it began.

Gryff

[Leothebear]

We seem to have digressed a little. I know abuse goes on and always has but the sheer hypocrisy of supposed holy men and women preaching to others on how to live their lives while indulging themselves in their own abusive perversions, takes it to an even lower level.

[Harry23]

We seem to have digressed a little. I know abuse goes on and always has but the sheer hypocrisy of supposed holy men and women preaching to others on how to live their lives while indulging themselves in their own abusive perversions, takes it to an even lower level.

Paedophiles try and gain access to children by infiltrating institutions that have them away from their parents and can get them alone. They're clearly not 'holy' people themselves, just hiding amongst others who are in a position of trust and taking advantage of insufficient safeguarding procedures. In the 'olden days' there was arguably far too much trust in, and deference to authorities and official institutions like the church and schools.

[XFool]

Could be true of all organised religions for all I know.
You should add orphanages, childrens homes and quite a few schools to that list!

Indeed this is a tragedy that we need to look all across society to root out, as well as in other countries.

Good luck with that!

Clearly it can and has been a serious issue in various institutions - religious or not - and steps needed to be taken to protect children.

However... The thinking here still seems rooted in the idea that 'it is over there', in some 'other' body or institution - the 'dirty old men' attitude. Sadly
it is pretty well a universal issue. The environment of child abuse is anywhere you find children. e.g. In families.