Questions for atheists

[bungeejumper]

I reckon Douglas Adams had the existential conundrum nailed:

"Now, it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful [as the Babel fish] could have evolved purely by chance, that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes like this:

`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.

`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."

BJ

[Stonge]

bungeejumper

have a rec

[redsturgeon]

I'm not sure what the OP is trying to find out here.

Neither am I.

Just trying to start a dialogue in the hope that I might learn something.

John

[redsturgeon]

I do believe that religions exist. One question is 'Why do religions exist?'. There are two main possible answers: 1. They exist because God exists; 2. they are made up by humans. Debate...

I have not heard anyone doubt the existence of religion. I guess believers would answer 1. while atheists would answer 2. Looking at the evidence, the multiplicity of religions would suggest 2.

The question 'Do you believe in God?' is very difficult to answer. An atheist would probably say 'No'.

However, are you using Univocal language, Equivocal language, or Analogical language, when you talk about God?

I am in favour of using the most unambiguous language possible to avoid confusion and aid clarity of communication. Functional definitions are good where they help avoid misunderstanding.

Do you mean an Eternal God or an Everlasting God?

Both or either, it is not for me to define that which I do not believe exists. This would be like asking me to state the colour of the flying spaghetti monster. But a good question to ask of a believer and each has its own benefits and problems in explaining the omniscient, omnipresent nature of a supposed god.

Is your concept of God more like Plato's Demiurge (i.e. did not create matter) or Aristotle's version that has heavily contributed to Christian and Islamic theology.

I do not believe in either concept, I suppose some atheists might consider a Diamurgic force to be present in the universe(s).

There are many other questions about whether your concept of God is sensible or logically possible.

I guess these are sensible questions to ask of a believer.

Sweeping statement - In my experience most people who believe themselves atheists are not - and most people who believe themselves believers are not. This is because they have not examined what to talk of God really means, other than in a very childish way.

I am interested in this. Are you happy to talk about god in a non childish way here?

[csearle]

I'm an atheist. Parents spiritualists.

For me god is a hypothesis, but not a very useful one in terms of knowing more. More useful hypotheses are those which link in well with things we already feel we know something about, and which speculate about an incremental extension. God seems to me to be a fairly wild guess that tries to fill in all the gaps. But as the gaps oh so slowly get filled-in god gets shifted around.

I do appreciate though that this god hypothesis has led to some spectacular architecture and cultural assets. But, it has also led to an awful lot of death and misery. That's not to say that we wouldn't have found reasons for death and misery without these god ideas, but I'm convinced it hasn't helped.

Regards,
Chris

[Clariman]

Did you ever believe in a god and if so at what age and what led you to not believe anymore? A supplementary question might be, were you brought up in a religious background?

No I have never believed in a God. My parents were non-believers, who were both brought up as CofE. My Dad read the bible cover to cover when he was 14 and thought to himself "No. I don't buy that". I was brought up to be questioning, to look for evidence, and to be prepared to stand up for what I believe ... even if that makes me different to others i.e. not to be a follower of fads or fashions - to think for myself.

Is there any time your atheism slips a little and your feel there might be something more?

Not really. I have never wanted there to be a God-like figure - nor have I ever thought in any serious way that there is one. To me life is simpler without the notion of a God. Sometimes I describe myself as agnostic/atheist, because I don't 100% rule out there being a creator or something else. But that may have more to do with wanting to appear more open-minded to my Christian relatives and friends - or because it is hard to prove that something does not exist.

Do you believe people have a choice in believing or not believing?

Interesting question. Yes I do believe people have a choice but it will be heavily influenced by parents and other influential figures.

Clariman

[ten0rman]

Well now, what a can of worms.
Given that as a child I lived in a small village, and that due to various circumstances I was the eldest child, and very much under the thumb, I had to attend the local Methodist Chapel right up until I was 17 or thereabouts. My parents never went, although my maternal grandmother went every Thursday to some meeting or other in the local town.
I do remember in my early years saying to my mother that I didn't believe in God, although I accepted that Christ in all probability had existed. My mother was shocked, and said something, I forget what, the result of which was that I kept quiet thereafter.
When I was 17, I asked the Chapel if they would agree to a Youth Club. They said no, so I transfered to a Congregational Chapel some 3/4 mile away which a friend attended. This lead to me learning about Choral Singing, something I've done ever since. My views, though, did not change, but I did keep them quiet. I should point out that a lot of Choral Music is sacred and in foreign languages, and I do find it a very pleasant pastime - until we start singing in English when I start to become very uncomfortable with some of the texts, considering as I do that some of them would sit quite nicely with a certain political party I dislike.
Eventually, I got married. Now I knew before we got married that my wife is a firm believer in all things religious, heaven, hell, angels, whatever. I don't agree, and indeed simply cannot see how anyone can be taken in by something which does not appear to be factually provable. Needless to say we have had to come to an unofficial accommodation - she doesn't say anything to me, and I put up with her antics.
These days, I simply cannot accept that such a superbeing, supposedly wise, all powerful and kind, especially the latter, can allow some of the atrocities we have seen perpetrated in the name of religion. To me it doesn't say much of its kindness. But yet, there is the question of where did our "life" come from. What was there in the beginning, if indeed there was a beginning?
In general then, I don't believe, yet there are some unanswerable questions. And no, with the antics I have seen & read about, I have no intention of taking up any organised religion.
One final thought, there are a large number of sects and varieties of religion, all of which, as I understand it, claim to be the one true way. An impossibility, in my view. I suspect that if there is indeed a superbeing, then in all probability none of the individual sects will be fully correct, more likely it will be an amalgamation of them all.

Regards

ten0rman

[didds]

OK My 2p.

Up until about the age of 10 I probably did "believe". I can recall being lost in a forest at about that age and praying to God that i could get out.
I grew up in an environment that was positively CofE/Christian?religious... school, parents.... though we weren't a church going or otherwise practicing family. But I was overwhelmingly developed/surrounded by messages that this was normal, so i went along with it and believed.


Some time between then and 14 or 15 I just lost that faith. I still went to church as part of the choir, which I enjoyed (I liked singing basically I now see), and my family followed suit. But by the time I'd finished O-Levels I didn;t go any longer, save maybe Xmas . I suppose church had become a habit, a bit like visiting your Great-Aunt on her brithday - you go along without any revbellion, but you never go any other time and you don;t really think about it and it doesn;t feature in your life any longer.

At university I met a LOT of severely religious people, and I found it quite freaky TBH. I was undoubtedly a product of benign CofE, cosy Sunday services and no great expectations of outward displays. These people I met claimed to go to prayer meetings where people spoke in tongues. One very dear friend broke down over a cuppa with me once afraid she wasn't loved by God as she had never spoken in tongues. She also said that she knew that she could commit suicide once she felt the role God had placed her on earth to do had been done. I suppose I had a period of agnosticism between about 15 and then (19-20?) where I didn't believe, but didn't think about it overly though in retrospect i clearly didn't believe there is a God/god. After hearing this rather bizarre stuff from her and others, I just binned it totally.

Certainly since my early 20s I've been atheist. I just don;t buy that there is some sort of all encompassing overseeing deity, loosely in control of everything. That's just pants (sorry to anybody that believes - this is just my view. If you want to believe that is entirely your call of course). Anything we don;t understand is purely down to science that we haven;t yet understood.

One small rider - If really really pushed I could maybe _just_ accept that _maybe_ there was some sort of initial creator of "everything". But that's it - an initial creator at best. (And its a chance so infinitesimally small ...). But one thing then - whatever that creator was isn't some omnipresent
being that loves everybody.

As for now I do go to church again - at Xmas, and I sing in the choir; I also sing in the choir at villager's funerals. Because I like it, the choir/church are run by friends of ours, the message is very low key, and I so it to support them and - for me - the excellent job they do in the local village community. I don't do it for religion certainly - the standing kjpoke is that as an atheist I go to church more often than many self claimed Christians.

And from what I can see I lead my life in a humanistic manner which poretty much falls into line with the Christian ideals - aside from the God/Holy Trinity stuff.

Finally - my view is what YOU do is up to YOU. Just don't ram it down my or anybody else's throats. Which is why Richard Dawkins is as bad in my view as evangelists.

didds

[jackdaww]

OK My 2p.

Finally - my view is what YOU do is up to YOU. Just don't ram it down my or anybody else's throats. Which is why Richard Dawkins is as bad in my view as evangelists.

didds

=========================================

agreed on dawkins - he over eggs the pudding .

but this is a very very serious matter -- these things need saying - people everywhere have organised religion put on their radar from birth .

have you read sam harris - "the end of faith religion terror and the future of reason "

amongst many other things , he reckons we are in real danger of global extinction by religious extremist nations who have nuclear capacity.

belief is belief - not truth .

.

[didds]

he is probably righht - but at the riosk of derailing this exxcellent bthread - justy because a nation is religiously extremist doesn't really mean its a religious nation. Just a nation that has been taken over by extremists using a warped version of a religion as a lever.

History is full of them, The Spanish Inquisition (amongst other Inquisitions!) spring to mind here. "Fortunately" all they had was primitive guns, swords and fire etc - no nukes ot chemical weaponry. (Arguably they had biological warfare via putrefying dead animals!)

didds

[Gyforks]

I consider myself an atheist, although sometimes I dabble with the idea of pantheism and consider myself more aligned to that than to outright atheism.

My questions for atheists would be:

Did you ever believe in a god and if so at what age and what led you to not believe anymore? A supplementary question might be, were you brought up in a religious background?

Is there any time your atheism slips a little and your feel there might be something more?

Do you believe people have a choice in believing or not believing?

John

As a child I was sent to Sunday School and sang in the church choir for money. I remember I sort of believed sceptically. I became a non believer gradually because of lack of proof of any higher power. Now I believe that John Lennon was correct. Religion divides people.

My aetheism never slips. I do contribute to some events and fundraising at our local church because I believe in some of their good causes.

People have a choice in believing but many people seem to possess closed minds. Faith is no substitute for logic.

Who created the creator?

[seekingbalance]

Reading the post from Stonge on the 21st Dec sums up pretty well why I am ever more atheist. What a load of twaddle. And just what I hear from people trying to sway people to their beliefs (not suggesting you are doing that, Stonge). Metaphysical claptrap.

An observation on religiosity in middle England. I am a Londoner, and as such lived in such a melting pot of cultures and religions and non religion it all just passed me by. Do what you like is essentially the motto. Not so in a small village in middle England. Churches up the wazoo, all the local scions are bible bashers. All are "allowed" to preach, attempt to convert, proselytise, and essentially denigrate other religions and especially atheists. I am exaggerating somewhat, but it is essentially like this. But it is an unspoken, unwritten, but enormous rule - do not argue back. Do not spout atheism. Do not criticise the religions. Keep quiet, let them have their say, but do not fight back.

Thus far I have played the game.

But Minchin, Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris are never far from my mind.

[Stonge]

Dear seekingbalance, your post makes me very glad that I have had very little to do with organised religion.

My parents considered themselves atheists and certainly did not believe in life after death.

So I have never had to free myself from the clutches of childhood indoctrination. It would seem to be almost impossible to genuinely escape its influence once one has been exposed.

[jackdaww]

a lady shop owner engaged me in conversation yesterday.

it transpired she had become a bornagain christian , following serious problems in her life .

how did this happen i asked.

she had found god - no god had found her .

how she had then got to the bible and jesus i dont know .

she said i should read the bible and pray .

i suggested that belief could be seen as a form of insanity - strangely she almost agreed .

but how to get through to these happy clappy people who talk about god and the holy spirit as if its accepted facts .

[RowdyReptile]

Fascinating thoughts from atheists.

It can be boiled down to..."Faith is a load of rot".

Perhaps so.

How do you move forward with people of faith in the secular world? It isn't enough, imho, to simply say "leave your faith at home", as the secular world likes to dictate as well. Faith is a belief in things unseen. I would argue the political promises of many secularists beggar belief, and can be as big a lie as any religion.

I certainly see a lot of unsolved problems in the world, but the secularists said it would be solved, if only we taxed enough and spent enough. Sure as you were born, the problems remain, but then we are told we hadn't taxed and spent enough.

My faith in a God may be my weakness, but your faith in secular government(gods?) is yours. Indeed, there seems to be a lot of "faith" by people who condemn that term.

There is plenty to mock, be it from the religious or secular.

RR

[jackdaww]

it is remarkable that so few believers have posted to this topic.

[RowdyReptile]

it is remarkable that so few believers have posted to this topic.

I am a believer. What is your point?

RR

[RowdyReptile]

Yes, it is rare air to come to a mostly atheist board.

The TMF UK board was much the same thing.

I think going forward the challenge is to find where we can move forward in a secular sense, as it is quite obvious I cannot prove to you a God exists, and I won't try.

It also seems you think people of faith are a threat and are into brainwashing. I find that very amusing considering the secular mind soak that is given on a daily basis, but I can at least understand where you are coming from.

I would say the secular form of brainwashing is no less harmful than the religious. So I would suggest dismounting from your high horse.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

I have an idea. Why don't you tell me why, since I have a faith, I am a detriment to society. Why is that so bad?

What harm do I do?

It is a fair question.

RR

[redsturgeon]

Writing as the OP on this topic can I say that we seem to have drifted off topic.

I was specifically interested in the answers to my questions from the atheist viewpoint so I was not expecting believers to reply to the thread although their thoughts if on topic are welcome.

There are undoubtedly many interesting questions that others might wish to ask of believers and if so I would suggest they start a new topic.

Also will I add that the best way towards understanding is to keep the tone polite and respectful.

A sign of a civilised mind is the ability to understand people with different beliefs and opinions to themselves.

John