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Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 22nd, 2020, 8:54 pm
by Dod101
I can only write of the Church of Scotland but it is a great shame that a lot more is not made of the good works they do and have done for a very long time, and that sentiment I am sure applies to every branch of the church. Education, a school in every parish, old peoples' homes, now food banks and so on. Plus, from most clergy, a guiding hand on our way through life. Like every human endeavour though there are bad apples and for any church to turn a blind eye to these misdeeds is unforgivable, but I think on the whole religion has been a fantastic force for good in art, music, and human endeavour in the form of moral guidance.
I know that religion has been the cause of much violence as well and it seems we cannot have the one without the other but I come down firmly on the side of religion, and it has to be organised one way or another.
Dod
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 22nd, 2020, 10:48 pm
by AleisterCrowley
My local CofE church back home does a lot of good stuff. The majority of the congregation are middle aged and older, and it seems to be a big 'social club' for people who may otherwise end up a bit lonely or isolated.
I'm an atheist (I think), but I always feel relaxed in churches and enjoy church architecture and music. It may be in the blood, as my grandfather was a vicar...
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 23rd, 2020, 9:27 am
by jackdaww
scrumpyjack wrote:Cutting off a teacher's head for religious reasons is unlikely to be something that would have been done anyway without religion?
============================
these men are led to think that on becoming a martyr , there will be 72 virgins awaiting them in paradise.
what becomes of these girls after they have served their purpose is not explained.
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 23rd, 2020, 10:09 am
by gryffron
Dod101 wrote:it is a great shame that a lot more is not made of the good works they do and have done for a very long time... Education, a school in every parish, old peoples' homes, now food banks and so on.
I know that religion has been the cause of much violence as well and it seems we cannot have the one without the other but I come down firmly on the side of religion, and it has to be organised one way or another.
It's perfectly possible for all the good (and evil) to be done without the lies, misdirection, tribalism, social and political control of religion. And personally, I come down very much against it. Religion does not have a monopoly on charity.
The Ancient Chinese managed to build society without gods, though not quite without religion. So not every society has needed gods.
Gryff
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 23rd, 2020, 10:14 am
by Dod101
gryffron wrote:Dod101 wrote:it is a great shame that a lot more is not made of the good works they do and have done for a very long time... Education, a school in every parish, old peoples' homes, now food banks and so on.
I know that religion has been the cause of much violence as well and it seems we cannot have the one without the other but I come down firmly on the side of religion, and it has to be organised one way or another.
It's perfectly possible for all the good (and evil) to be done without the lies, misdirection, tribalism, social and political control of religion. And personally, I come down very much against it. Religion does not have a monopoly on charity. The Ancient Chinese managed to build society without gods, though not quite without religion.
Of course, of course. Religion itself is a very personal matter, but it is out of its teachings that a lot of charity has sprung.
Dod
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 23rd, 2020, 11:58 am
by BobbyD
gryffron wrote:The Ancient Chinese managed to build society without gods, though not quite without religion. So not every society has needed gods.
Religion in the Ch'ou Dynasty (1111–255 BCE)
During the Ch'ou Dynasty, the various regions of China began to be unified into a single civilization. Likewise, religious ideas from different regions interacted and began to assimilate. Although some local differences remained, a general Chinese pantheon developed in which each god had a specific function. This reflected the unified Chinese empire with its bureaucratic society.
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http://www.religionfacts.com/chinese-religion/history
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 23rd, 2020, 12:03 pm
by ReformedCharacter
gryffron wrote:
The Ancient Chinese managed to build society without gods, though not quite without religion. So not every society has needed gods.
Gryff
Depends how you define 'gods' I think. One might say that the ancient Chinese turned their ancestors into gods. Although Buddhism is usually described as a religion, I don't think Buddhists have a god.
RC
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 23rd, 2020, 12:16 pm
by Dod101
ReformedCharacter wrote:gryffron wrote:
The Ancient Chinese managed to build society without gods, though not quite without religion. So not every society has needed gods.
Gryff
Depends how you define 'gods' I think. One might say that the ancient Chinese turned their ancestors into gods. Although Buddhism is usually described as a religion, I don't think Buddhists have a god.
RC
When I was in Sri Lanka (which is predominantly Buddhist) earlier this year, it was explained to me in Kandy that Buddhism is a way of life rather than a religion.
The Chinese, even today, certainly outside of Mainland China, have many different Gods and Godesses and they take them pretty seriously. You only need to visit some Chinese temples to see that. They also have many festivals throughout the year whose significance is mostly based on what we would call religion.
Even I have a picture of a kitchen god outside my kitchen door.
Dod
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 23rd, 2020, 12:36 pm
by jackdaww
Snorvey wrote:jackdaww wrote:scrumpyjack wrote:Cutting off a teacher's head for religious reasons is unlikely to be something that would have been done anyway without religion?
============================
these men are led to think that on becoming a martyr , there will be 72 virgins awaiting them in paradise.
what becomes of these girls after they have served their purpose is not explained.
As Achmed the Dead Terrorist found out to his horror, there's no guaranteeing that his 72 virgins will be female.
====================
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 26th, 2020, 5:48 pm
by monabri
jackdaww wrote:Snorvey wrote:jackdaww wrote:============================
these men are led to think that on becoming a martyr , there will be 72 virgins awaiting them in paradise.
what becomes of these girls after they have served their purpose is not explained.
As Achmed the Dead Terrorist found out to his horror, there's no guaranteeing that his 72 virgins will be female.
====================
I kill you!
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 27th, 2020, 11:12 am
by stevensfo
scrumpyjack wrote:Cutting off a teacher's head for religious reasons is unlikely to be something that would have been done anyway without religion?
According to some countries, condemning such a barbaric murder is even worse. From what I heard on the news last night, Turkey is enforcing a boycott of French goods.
Steve
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 27th, 2020, 11:19 am
by scrumpyjack
stevensfo wrote:scrumpyjack wrote:Cutting off a teacher's head for religious reasons is unlikely to be something that would have been done anyway without religion?
According to some countries, condemning such a barbaric murder is even worse. From what I heard on the news last night, Turkey is enforcing a boycott of French goods.
Steve
Yes Erdogan makes Trump look like a choirboy!
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 27th, 2020, 11:25 am
by jackdaww
Snorvey wrote:monabri wrote:I kill you!
You need the stare
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Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: October 27th, 2020, 1:33 pm
by monabri
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: November 18th, 2020, 1:00 pm
by Charlottesquare
BobbyD wrote:scrumpyjack wrote:Yes there are undoubtedly a high proportion of excellent people in the churches with deep moral values but the problem is once you have a creed based on faith – I’m right and everyone who believes differently is going to hell / God is on my side / the unbelievers must be exterminated etc etc you give a cover to the extremists – hence regimes like that in Iran or in many instances in Christian history.
So on balance looking at human history, I have to agree with Snorvey that religion has overall been a very malign influence. Obviously that is not going to stop bad people doing awful things but its absence is one less excuse.
It is often said that if God didn't exist man would have to invent him. Well anybody with the briefest knowledge of the last 4000 years knows that he has, many times over, unless you can reconcile the myriad mono and polytheistic belief systems which have emerged around the globe in to a single coherent Pantheon. Religion hasn't been an influence on human development, it doesn't exist outside humanity, it is the expression of a number of the fundamental aspects of human psychology.
It should come as a surprise to no one that power structures attract people who wish to wield power, and whilst you can use almost any difference you like to differentiate us and them nothing gives you quite the latitude that a handwritten note from the Creator of the Universe gives you. Kings are a somewhat distant second, and anyway they are generally appointed by the Creator so something of a letter from the Almighty's secretary.
Then you are down to more problematic baseis for your right to whatever you like, such as nationality, race... none of which lead to prettier conflicts than religion, but if religion hadn't been such a convenient and culturally acceptable way to express your desire to capture your neighbour's town, sleep with his wife and eat his cattle over the history of mankind there wouldn't have been fewer wars, there would have been different pretexts.
Agreed- one of the things the Romans (at least up to Constantine) did for us was pursue wars whilst not being too fussed about local religions, provided these did not impact the stability of the peoples controlled/subjugated/enslaved.
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: November 18th, 2020, 1:17 pm
by Charlottesquare
gryffron wrote:Dod101 wrote:it is a great shame that a lot more is not made of the good works they do and have done for a very long time... Education, a school in every parish, old peoples' homes, now food banks and so on.
I know that religion has been the cause of much violence as well and it seems we cannot have the one without the other but I come down firmly on the side of religion, and it has to be organised one way or another.
It's perfectly possible for all the good (and evil) to be done without the lies, misdirection, tribalism, social and political control of religion. And personally, I come down very much against it. Religion does not have a monopoly on charity.
The Ancient Chinese managed to build society without gods, though not quite without religion. So not every society has needed gods.
Gryff
In the same way the corporation increased access to capital for business to thrive (critical mass) religion increased information resources. Whilst some rulers might have amassed writings and works which would aid the spread of knowledge, one really needs a class of people to be created (and paid for) with the time and inclination to improve and spread said knowledge, there are few signs throughout the world that such a class of people emerged except from a priest class.
Now there is a pretty strong argument that after X date certainly the Christian church thwarted the spread of knowledge and slowed what might have taken place (I do not know enough about non Mediterranean History to comment about them) but that knowledge when it did flower, with the spread of say Greek/Other learning and the building upon it, had itself come from societies which had embraced religions .
The question is, without religion how would the world have created the required concentrated "critical masses" of knowledge to get us where we are today?
Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'
Posted: November 18th, 2020, 2:40 pm
by gryffron
Interesting point Charlottesquare. I guess you could say the same about islam. In its early years it gathered and disseminated knowledge. And then later destroyed and hid it.
But, the Great Library at Alexandria was built and flourished without religion interfering. So again, religion is not an essential precursor to such accumulations of knowledge.
Gryff