Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

The Meaning of Death

Religion and Philosophy
Forum rules
we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
beeswax2
Posts: 2
Joined: March 14th, 2021, 8:55 pm

Re: The Meaning of Death

#395568

Postby beeswax2 » March 14th, 2021, 9:54 pm

Hi all, I have been reincarnated from beeswax who used to post a lot on these boards two or three years ago and it could be longer. I was thrown off at the time by the moderators and sorry but can't remember why now. I think I insulted one and so deserved it. I used to post frequently on this board and the polite discussions and rarely on the others. I don't visit this site very often, maybe once or twice a year? But this topic has gained my interest on the sanctity of life and whether we should have assisted dying and how can people with severe dementia give consent etc and life of relatives in care homes etc. I hope the Mods allow me to come back.

I am 77 almost now and believe in God actually but I am an ex Christian so to speak but due to some experiences in my life where I believed there was some kind of divine intervention cannot bring myself to become an atheist but also believe that no one religious faith has a monopoly on God as to me is he the God of the Universe and everyone and every living thing but that is nothing to do with assisted dying and so don't believe in the God given 'sanctity of life' idea that is promulgated by most religious people.

I think we should be able to choose our own time of death by assisted dying but the UK law does not allow it but they can't stop you using a stanly knife to cut ones wrists and then go to bed and that is assisted dying by other means and that is a choice we all have if we are mentally aware of the situation but what about our loved ones with dementia? How can they decide? The fact is they can't! My late MIL was very fortunate. She lived to get to ninety nine and three quarters and was three months short of a telegram from the Queen but she would not have known that or anything else as she went into a care home for her last four years, despite her always saying "Never put me in one".

We had no alternative, the dementia started some years before but she managed to get by with lots of help from me and my wife but she started to be a danger to herself and used to fall down. She used to light candles thinking it was WW2 and the blackout etc and couldn't get up by herself and we used to visit her every day when she lived at her home and indeed every day she went into a care home which was two separate care home as the first one could no longer look after her needs. I have had experience of four care home as I used to sing to them and play music from their eras and try and make them laugh and carried on doing that after she passed away two and a half years ago. The Pandemic stopped all that obviously. Most of the residents in the care homes I saw were mentally and severely disabled and probably 80% with severe dementia like my MIL. They were taken to lounges where the TV was left on the whole time but nobody was watching it and they were either asleep or staring into space. These are NOT places were we want to end our days. I have to say that the carers do a wonderful job on the minimum wage and it annoys me that NHS nurses on 34 grand a year complain they are underpaid and they don't have half the horrible stuff these carers have to do each and every day. If only they could get the same as NHS staff.

So where are we with assisted death in this scenario?

I tell you the truth, its unusual to say but I loved my MIL because I knew her since I was 15 years of age before I married her daughter who is 73 now and she was more of a mother to me far more than my own maternal mother ever was and why we spent so much time with her, especially when she needed us. I saw a lovely great looking woman go down hill mentality especially in her last couple of years and you may not believe me when I say that I would have assisted her to die at any time during that period knowing that we love her and didn't want her to suffer what she was clearly going through but she could not articulate it.

She died in bed in the care home on our 50th wedding anniversary and she was a life long Christian too. She used to say during her early years of her dementia, '"What are they making us live like this"...We shouldn't imv!

Just my perspective on this. I just don't want others to choose the time of my death and I reject them trying to use the law of the land to stop it. But Mr Stanley is always there to help out if they try to...There can be enough safeguards to ensure its not done willy nilly and it becomes the thin end of a big wedge. I can say this finally, Money for her care was never an issue for us. I cannot speak for everyone else though but through my eyes, most relatives who visited their loved ones, it wasn't an issue either.

ATB,

Mike aka beeswax.

1nvest
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4323
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 680 times
Been thanked: 1316 times

Re: The Meaning of Death

#396201

Postby 1nvest » March 16th, 2021, 4:14 pm

Thanks for sharing Mike.

My 89 year old mother had a fall in January and had quite a severe op the next day (hip/upper thigh strapping/pinning). After starting to seemingly recover well, was walking with a zimmer frame for instance. 4 days later, whilst still in hospital, she tested positive for Covid. Remained in the hospital for a further few days before being moved to a Covid isolation home for the rest of a total of 14 days Covid isolation period where no Covid symptoms whatsoever were evident. She received no physio there, basically left in a room. Her recovery deteriorated to the extent she now struggles to stand. She's now back in General hospital, after another fall and the talk is that I'd (son) struggle to care for her at home so they're looking for a 2 week care placement funded by the NHS and likely it will be over to me to then fund care thereafter. Looks like its a £85K/year cost, maybe more as she 'needs to be continually watched' as the op and morphine used after the op has apparently has exasperated prior mild dementia, delirious/confused/restless type descriptions. Her home value and savings however are more likely more than enough to cover such costs for the remainder of her life so money isn't a issue.

Pretty much not been able to visit her since January due to Covid restrictions hospital policy and she can't use a mobile phone so pretty much reliant upon kind nurses who do allow us to chat occasionally on the wards landline when I phone in to ask about her.

Friends and neighbours are all suggesting that I accept her going straight to a care home - but she just wants to get back home again. A massive commitment on my behalf but one I'm ready albeit very concerned to take. As her only child (I'm now 60) and me with no wife, just adult independent kids, I'm temped to live as one with her, 24/7 in her bungalow home for whatever remaining time that may be possible. She still knows me etc. but easily confused/forgets things and now with increased risk of falling/hurting herself. Similarly shes always said to never allow her to go into a care home. If for instance we might have 4 years before the situation became so bad I couldn't cope, then at least she'd have had those years in her own home rather than as you say transferring between bed and sitting in a TV room with others the same or worse than her.

A decision I'll relatively soon have to make for final that's been brought about relatively quickly. Prior to her January fall she would under normal circumstances have been out and about walking around with friends, gardening etc. quite fit and well for her age. Covid lockdown ended that social scene for pretty much a year prior to her fall and whilst she was looking to resuming such post Covid life has now taken a big turn for the worst. I very much suspect that lack of socialising/exercise, a near year of lockdown at home, brought about much of her frailty and cause of a fall.

1nvest
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4323
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 680 times
Been thanked: 1316 times

Re: The Meaning of Death

#396214

Postby 1nvest » March 16th, 2021, 4:39 pm

Should have asked the question ... on the assumption of either 90K/year care home cost or alternatively perhaps privately employing three carers at 30K/year each to cover three 7 hours x 5 days of shifts to care for my mother at home, with me filling in the gaps (predominately mostly night times), would those that have or had loved ones in care homes opine that being at home with individual care and no others around is better or worse than being with others in a care home?

I have a rather negative mental image view of care homes myself, but perhaps self funded ones to around 90K/year type levels might not be anywhere near as bad as I believe them to be?

beeswax2
Posts: 2
Joined: March 14th, 2021, 8:55 pm

Re: The Meaning of Death

#396250

Postby beeswax2 » March 16th, 2021, 6:21 pm

Hi 1nvest,

Thanks for your comments and experience too. I suspect these questions and decisions will become more prevalent as we are all tending to live longer and dementia is a real risk or the big C getting us or even the Coronavirus if its still around.

Most care homes are privately owned nowadays and so they will have a mix of self funding residents ie those who fall outside of the £23K cash/assets limit and those that receive some or indeed all of the costs via the local authority and the care they all get is actually the same, irrespective, based on my limited experience. I went to see most care homes in my area and they seem pretty fair to good and the Care Quality Commission (CQC) has done audits at most of them and scores them according to set criteria and not many are ranked as outstanding ie just one in my area and most have a 'good' or needs improvement score. I will add that the fees for the outstanding care home was a lot higher than the rest but just my experience visiting it, saw nothing special, apart from a gym and a hairdressing salon and a few more nurses and carers and the care home manager makes all the difference to ensure everything runs OK and the correct medicins given etc. Staff turnover is the big problem in care homes as many are from overeas (and they are great imv)as we can't persuade UK people to do the job that is very challenging to say the least caring for people who are physically and mentally impaired and I can't praise them enough and wish they could get the same recognition as NHS staff but if these homes say they cannot make that much profit charging the rates they do, then how can the carers be paid accordingly? Most I knew were on 7 or 8 pounds an hour and you know some less than that if they were youngish. NHS nurses are on three times that amount and why many carers that I knew managed to get a job in the NHS as health care assistants with a possibility of training to become a qualified nurse.

Care Costs in the community are forever being discussed by the Government of the day and I recall Tony Blair standing with his halo above his head prior to the 1997 general election saying how disgusting it was that people had to sell their homes to provide care for their loved ones to who needed it. They did nothing despite 13 years in office was it and Boris Johnson has said the same and again it seems the subject has been kicked into the long grass and for one very good reason as always. The cost! And the local authorities say they cannot afford it if there was a cap on individual contributions to their care.

Now, wrt your question. I think I would try and keep your Mother in her own home and pay for carers to come in at frequent intervals during the day and even nignt if she needed it but its possible that people at these ages do sleep a lot and so maybe she could get by without full time 24 hour care and she would have you keeping an eye on her when you were about, We had some carers coming in just to get some meals twice a day for a while and so just paid for their time but they have to be relied on either way to come out. Also care homes have staff and facilities to lift people from chairs to bed and back again and to bathe them and so that would be a consideration as whether your Mum was bed bound or not. That could be a big deciding factor imv.

Its certainly worth a try and then see how you got on and just by the by, the LA used to provide respite care for a few weeks and so maybe they have changed that now. Oh I forgot, if she is at home or in a care home and you fully funding, she would be entitled to disability benefits which could pay towards the care costs either way.

The very best of luck and hope your Mum improves. I have to say that if she does have to go into a care home, her dementia will only get worse because as as good as the carers are, they really don't have the time to spend with each resident or have mind challening activities. And none were given physiotherpy as they really did need that and never ever saw any NHS staff come out to do that.

Mike

1nvest
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4323
Joined: May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm
Has thanked: 680 times
Been thanked: 1316 times

Re: The Meaning of Death

#396415

Postby 1nvest » March 17th, 2021, 12:40 pm

Thanks Mike.
I have to say that if she does have to go into a care home, her dementia will only get worse because as good as the carers are, they really don't have the time to spend with each resident or have mind challenging activities.

A year+ back, pre-Covid and we were regularly visiting a local dementia hub group, a few hours a few times/week. Hopefully that might resume 'post Covid' so even if in a home provided its relatively local I could resume taking her out to those groups. One afternoon was a quiz/general type session, word search type paper activities and then onto making something with pipe cleaners/cloth/whatever. Another was 'singing for the brain'. Another was a dance group, levelled to physical abilities, mums group for instance could stand/dance (with their carer partner), yet other groups did more chair based waving satin scarves around to music for instance. And then other things between times such as a show, or kids coming in from a local school to rehearse their Christmas Carol or school play type things.

Guess we'll just see how she/we get on once home - that will either work out or not and if not then perhaps having gone around a few care homes together one might stick out as a preferred way forward.

Thanks again.

88V8
Lemon Half
Posts: 5768
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:22 am
Has thanked: 4097 times
Been thanked: 2560 times

Re: The Meaning of Death

#397334

Postby 88V8 » March 20th, 2021, 10:17 am

Spain has now legalised assisted death.

'Today we are a more humane country' - Spanish PM.
Quite so.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 19165.html

UK nationals resident in Spain are eligible. Meanwhile back in the UK our cowardly politicians continue to do... nothing.

V8


Return to “The Meaning of Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests