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Free Will?

Religion and Philosophy
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XFool
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Free Will?

#408600

Postby XFool » May 1st, 2021, 3:12 pm

Interesting...

The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

The Guardian

A growing chorus of scientists and philosophers argue that free will does not exist. Could they be right?

"Despite the criticism that this is all just armchair philosophy, the truth is that the stakes could hardly be higher. Were free will to be shown to be nonexistent – and were we truly to absorb the fact – it would “precipitate a culture war far more belligerent than the one that has been waged on the subject of evolution”, Harris has written."

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Re: Free Will?

#408601

Postby scrumpyjack » May 1st, 2021, 3:32 pm

XFool wrote:Interesting...

The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

The Guardian

A growing chorus of scientists and philosophers argue that free will does not exist. Could they be right?

"Despite the criticism that this is all just armchair philosophy, the truth is that the stakes could hardly be higher. Were free will to be shown to be nonexistent – and were we truly to absorb the fact – it would “precipitate a culture war far more belligerent than the one that has been waged on the subject of evolution”, Harris has written."


As with much philosophy it can seem to be largely about the meaning of words and an argument akin to how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Even if you argue that everything is the simple playing out of the movement of matter and energy, I can’t see where the argument gets you. There is no evidence that some supreme deity laid all this down in advance, nor an answer to the question if the deity did so who/what created the deity?
If these few academics are right, then it was inevitable that I should write this post and the entire discussion about the topic is also preordained. So why bother?

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Re: Free Will?

#408603

Postby Lootman » May 1st, 2021, 3:52 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:As with much philosophy it can seem to be largely about the meaning of words and an argument akin to how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Even if you argue that everything is the simple playing out of the movement of matter and energy, I can’t see where the argument gets you. There is no evidence that some supreme deity laid all this down in advance, nor an answer to the question if the deity did so who/what created the deity?

If these few academics are right, then it was inevitable that I should write this post and the entire discussion about the topic is also preordained. So why bother?

My degree was in philosophy. There were only a couple of us who did single honours philosophy. The others were either doing PPE or else combined philosophy with pure maths or psychology.

I recall we went around and around in circles on free will. What was interesting was that the PPE crowd were more arty and lefty, and they generally were sceptical there is any free will. Whereas the more sciencey maths and psych crowd were more conservative and accepted free will in the conventional common sense manner.

Perhaps it's logical as it enables lefties to discount the role of the individual in influencing their outcomes, leading to supporting policies that excuse people who end up in prison or homeless, or that confiscate from the successful on the grounds that their success was all preordained and therefore undeserved. Whereas the more right-wing students gave much more weight to how success or failure in life derives from the decisions and effort an individual makes.

Philosophy is sometimes defined as the study of everything that is not yet devolved to science. If so then it is perhaps not surprising that we impose our own personal biases on what we see as being "true" in philosophy.

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Re: Free Will?

#408612

Postby scrumpyjack » May 1st, 2021, 4:59 pm

Lootman wrote:Philosophy is sometimes defined as the study of everything that is not yet devolved to science. If so then it is perhaps not surprising that we impose our own personal biases on what we see as being "true" in philosophy.


I read Classics and of course the word philosophy is literally the Greek for 'Love of Wisdom', whereas Scientia is the Latin for Knowledge

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Re: Free Will?

#408619

Postby kiloran » May 1st, 2021, 5:45 pm

I think the concept of free will and the meaning of words is different for husbands and wives :lol:

--kiloran (posted without the knowledge of my wife)

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Re: Free Will?

#408631

Postby Midsmartin » May 1st, 2021, 6:39 pm

I've never seen how free will could be possible. Our brains make decisions based on the previous state of all the neurons and chemistry of the brain. If I'm deciding whether to eat more cake when nobody is looking I make a certain decision. If we could later rewind the universe with the state of every subatomic particle set to be identical, my brain must reach the same decision, because the inputs are the same. There might be an exception if there are such things as random events, which could just nudge s decision the other way. But that isn't free will, it's randomness.

If someone thinks I could rewind the universe exactly and then somehow "choose" a different outcome, I'd like to know how. How could my neurons choose to provide a different output if the input is identical?

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Re: Free Will?

#408632

Postby XFool » May 1st, 2021, 6:48 pm

kiloran wrote:I think the concept of free will and the meaning of words is different for husbands and wives :lol:

--kiloran (posted without the knowledge of my wife)

That's what you think...

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Re: Free Will?

#408633

Postby Lootman » May 1st, 2021, 6:50 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I've never seen how free will could be possible. Our brains make decisions based on the previous state of all the neurons and chemistry of the brain. If I'm deciding whether to eat more cake when nobody is looking I make a certain decision. If we could later rewind the universe with the state of every subatomic particle set to be identical, my brain must reach the same decision, because the inputs are the same. There might be an exception if there are such things as random events, which could just nudge s decision the other way. But that isn't free will, it's randomness.

If someone thinks I could rewind the universe exactly and then somehow "choose" a different outcome, I'd like to know how. How could my neurons choose to provide a different output if the input is identical?

If you decide that you do not believe in free will, then you still have to decide if you are a fatalist or a determinist:

fatalism is the theory that there is some destiny that we cannot avoid, although we are able to take different paths up to this destiny. Determinism, however, is the theory that the entire path of our life is decided by earlier events and actions.

https://www.mytutor.co.uk/answers/10942 ... -fatalism/

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Re: Free Will?

#408636

Postby XFool » May 1st, 2021, 6:53 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I've never seen how free will could be possible.

If someone thinks I could rewind the universe exactly and then somehow "choose" a different outcome, I'd like to know how. How could my neurons choose to provide a different output if the input is identical?

I think (or I think I think...?) that "free will", or the "problem" of free will, is just the "problem" of consciousness dressed up in another way. Or is that too obvious to be worth mentioning?

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Re: Free Will?

#408637

Postby XFool » May 1st, 2021, 6:59 pm

Lootman wrote:If you decide that you do not believe in free will, then you still have to decide if you are a fatalist or a determinist:

fatalism is the theory that there is some destiny that we cannot avoid, although we are able to take different paths up to this destiny. Determinism, however, is the theory that the entire path of our life is decided by earlier events and actions.

Something sounds fishy there to me. Why aren't they just the same thing? After all, every instant in your life is a "destination" wrt all the previous history of your existence. Talk of an "ultimate destination" sounds more religion than philosophy to me.

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Re: Free Will?

#408642

Postby mc2fool » May 1st, 2021, 7:13 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I've never seen how free will could be possible. Our brains make decisions based on the previous state of all the neurons and chemistry of the brain. If I'm deciding whether to eat more cake when nobody is looking I make a certain decision. If we could later rewind the universe with the state of every subatomic particle set to be identical, my brain must reach the same decision, because the inputs are the same. There might be an exception if there are such things as random events, which could just nudge s decision the other way. But that isn't free will, it's randomness.

If someone thinks I could rewind the universe exactly and then somehow "choose" a different outcome, I'd like to know how. How could my neurons choose to provide a different output if the input is identical?

Stephen Penrose's book The Emperor's New Mind...

"Penrose argues that human consciousness is non-algorithmic, and thus is not capable of being modeled by a conventional Turing machine, which includes a digital computer. Penrose hypothesizes that quantum mechanics plays an essential role in the understanding of human consciousness. The collapse of the quantum wavefunction is seen as playing an important role in brain function." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind

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Re: Free Will?

#408646

Postby ReformedCharacter » May 1st, 2021, 7:23 pm

mc2fool wrote:
"Penrose argues that human consciousness is non-algorithmic, and thus is not capable of being modeled by a conventional Turing machine, which includes a digital computer. Penrose hypothesizes that quantum mechanics plays an essential role in the understanding of human consciousness. The collapse of the quantum wavefunction is seen as playing an important role in brain function." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind

You may find this of interest 'Roger Penrose: Physics of Consciousness and the Infinite Universe | Lex Fridman Podcast #85'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orMtwOz6Db0

Elon Musk has a some interesting comments, suggesting a more advanced type of Turing test and says that if you cannot tell the difference between human consciousness and an AI's apparent consciousness then consciousness can be created in a machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilNPyQiEh2E&t=2s

RC

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Re: Free Will?

#408650

Postby Lootman » May 1st, 2021, 7:44 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:If you decide that you do not believe in free will, then you still have to decide if you are a fatalist or a determinist:

fatalism is the theory that there is some destiny that we cannot avoid, although we are able to take different paths up to this destiny. Determinism, however, is the theory that the entire path of our life is decided by earlier events and actions.

Something sounds fishy there to me. Why aren't they just the same thing?

Well, the article I cited starts out by saying "the thing to realise is that both of these theories have the same result in the end".

As I see it the difference is one of degree. Some disbelievers in free will still hold that they have control over small day-to-day things. It is just that the major outcomes of your life (long or short, rich or poor, happy or miserable, loved or hated) are predetermined.

The stronger form of disbelief in free will states that it is a complete illusion, as is any control you feel you have over decisions or outcomes. It is all predestined. Quite how people who really believe that conduct their lives is something of a mystery to me. For a start you would never apologise or thank someone. Why would you? The logical result would be to never derive any credit for success, nor accept any blame for failure.

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Re: Free Will?

#408651

Postby Midsmartin » May 1st, 2021, 7:48 pm

I'm sure quantum effects have a role in all sorts of things. Everything is made of quantum particles in the end. Photosynthesis is thought to rely on weird quantum tunneling effects.

Which is all fascinating but doesn't give us free will of course!

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Re: Free Will?

#408653

Postby Midsmartin » May 1st, 2021, 8:04 pm

Lootman, I infer that you think there could be free will. I'd be interested if there is an explanation of how this could be. If we imagine my cake-eating thought experiment and rewind the universe a few times to repeat it, how could I "choose"to maker a different decision. I might decide to eat the cake, just for the hilarity that ensues when my family finds only crumbs. But that decision, to me, is still determined by the state of neurons in my brain, and can only go one way with a given state of every particle in the universe.

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Re: Free Will?

#408655

Postby ReformedCharacter » May 1st, 2021, 8:11 pm

Lootman wrote:
The stronger form of disbelief in free will states that it is a complete illusion, as is any control you feel you have over decisions or outcomes. It is all predestined. Quite how people who really believe that conduct their lives is something of a mystery to me. For a start you would never apologise or thank someone. Why would you? The logical result would be to never derive any credit for success, nor accept any blame for failure.

I don't think that is true. The belief that everything is predetermined would also predetermine your proclivity to derive credit for success or blame for failure, you can't have the first bit without the second if you disbelieve free will. Of course most people dislike the idea that we lack free will so bias is to be expected.

RC

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Re: Free Will?

#408657

Postby jfgw » May 1st, 2021, 8:17 pm

Midsmartin wrote:If we imagine my cake-eating thought experiment and rewind the universe a few times to repeat it, how could I "choose"to maker a different decision. I might decide to eat the cake, just for the hilarity that ensues when my family finds only crumbs. But that decision, to me, is still determined by the state of neurons in my brain, and can only go one way with a given state of every particle in the universe.

Simple example:

Send a vertically polarised photon at a polarising filter angled at 45°. Does it go through? The probability is 50%. Whether or not it goes through is not determined, as far as we know, by the given state of every particle in the universe. If you were to rewind time and rerun the experiment, would the outcome be the same? There is no proof that it would be. The physical world is not, as far as we can tell, deterministic.


Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Free Will?

#408658

Postby mc2fool » May 1st, 2021, 8:20 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I'm sure quantum effects have a role in all sorts of things. Everything is made of quantum particles in the end. Photosynthesis is thought to rely on weird quantum tunneling effects.

Which is all fascinating but doesn't give us free will of course!

Maybe, maybe not, but my post was actually about your assertion that with the same inputs your neurons/brain must produce the same outputs/decision.

That assumes that neurons, and hence the brain, are totally deterministic algorithmic devices, and I believe that's just speculation. AFAIAA it's an unknown, either way. There may well be a quantum leprechaun inside each neuron that, as well as considering the given inputs, also opens a box to see if a cat is dead or alive before deciding what the output will be. ;)

And a single neuron firing differently might not just be a slight "nudge" but could result in drastically different outcomes, if the brain is a chaotic system, which I'm sure at least some people's are ... :D

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Re: Free Will?

#408659

Postby Midsmartin » May 1st, 2021, 8:31 pm

Ok. But I see these quantum random events as just that, random. A photon or electron may randomly go one way or another. I don't see that as being free will. It's just randomness.

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Re: Free Will?

#408660

Postby Lootman » May 1st, 2021, 8:39 pm

[
Midsmartin wrote:Lootman, I infer that you think there could be free will. I'd be interested if there is an explanation of how this could be.

I cannot prove it exists any more than you can prove that it doesn't. It is ultimately unknowable and so the only reason to study the issue is in the hope of learning something useful about life and how to live it. Otherwise it is a purely academic matter of no real world significance.

ReformedCharacter wrote: The belief that everything is predetermined would also predetermine your proclivity to derive credit for success or blame for failure, you can't have the first bit without the second if you disbelieve free will.

As above, suppose we decide to agree there is no free will and everything is predetermined. What do we now do with that information? How does it help us live better? It's not as if it enables us to make better decisions because those decisions were effectively made long before we were born, possibly at the inception of the universe.

We all intuitively feel that we have control over decisions that have effects, and our society is structured to reflect that. How and what would we change if we all suddenly threw away the concept of free will? And if the answer is nothing, then why concern ourselves with it at all? We might as well continue as if we have free will even if conceptually we have decided it is a myth.

Perhaps it is predetermined that we believe in free will? And in evolutionary terms maybe that has worked out better than not believing in it?


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