Church of England

[Adamski]

I realise religion seen by many here as somewhat wacky and outdated. But I feel little sad about the imminent extinction of the church of England. Having been brought up in it (and methodist), and attended on and off over my adult life.

The decline now seems certain given the attendences in the pews are largely very elderly, except family services, which often I think is basically childminding. Once this generation passes on, I guess churches will convert to housing and museums.

I think secularisation is largely the reason, with society at large being un-religious, and un-churched now. But the Liberal bishops and Welby have to take blame too.

If the bloke/woman at the front thinks it's clap trap, why should I bother? Indeed.

The woke/climate change/lgbt+/politically correct version of christianity is a turn off for those in the pews. I think even if they don't believe themselves, they'd be better preaching a biblical christianity, if they were genuinely interested in saving the CoE.

As it is I guess extinction in a generation is inevitable ,and the bishops know this so just hanging on to their palaces and pensions long enough before the game's up. Do you agree, or even care?

[Midsmartin]

I'm an atheist, but I do feel sad about all the beautiful old villages churches up and down the country that have few people who care for them. I like the history, the atmosphere, and the local connection you feel walking between the gravestones, hopefully under a yew tree.

On the other hand, if they were bursting with over enthusiastic evangelicals I would probably be more worried about the spread of (to me) irrationality.

I'm happy to donate to charity collections to the fabric of historical buildings.Id just prefer my money is not used to promote religion.

What's the answer? There isn't one. It'd be nice to see secular "church" meetings in these buildings such as Sunday Assembly, but that organisation doesn't seem to be having much success.

" woke/climate change/lgbt+/politically correct".

That's an interesting list. "Woke" is a vague poorly defined social/political idea. Climate change is hard science, supported and demonstrated by everything we've found out about the world in the last 150 years. It's very strange to me to see these in the same category

[Lootman]

"woke/climate change/lgbt+/politically correct".

That's an interesting list. "Woke" is a vague poorly defined social/political idea. Climate change is hard science, supported and demonstrated by everything we've found out about the world in the last 150 years. It's very strange to me to see these in the same category

But in practice there is a lot of correlation between green advocates, anti-racist advocates, gay advocates, tax-and-spend advocates and so on.

It is almost as if there is a "tick the box" checklist for aspiring wokesters and budding PC "justice" warriors.

A hope for churches is that I notice that they are popular with immigrants and minorities. A (black) friend of mine attends a protestant church in South London and tells me that it is packed, and with a lot of young people.

[Adamski]

... It's very strange to me to see these in the same category

My point perhaps badly worded. What I wanted to say, was that Justin Welby should concentrate on reversing the decline rather than politics. Whilst he plays left wing politics his church is in terminal decline. Which I think is part of the reason.

[Adamski]

.. A hope for churches is that I notice that they are popular with immigrants and minorities. A (black) friend of mine attends a protestant church in South London and tells me that it is packed, and with a lot of young people.

Catholic Church also growing worldwide, but that's because of population growth in Latin America. That's despite all the scandals. Growing everywhere except Europe.

[XFool]

"woke/climate change/lgbt+/politically correct".

That's an interesting list. "Woke" is a vague poorly defined social/political idea. Climate change is hard science, supported and demonstrated by everything we've found out about the world in the last 150 years. It's very strange to me to see these in the same category

But in practice there is a lot of correlation between green advocates, anti-racist advocates, gay advocates, tax-and-spend advocates and so on.

Yeah...

As in practice there is a lot of correlation between climate science deniers, hard Brexit and Trump supporters, and right-wing wing nuts in general!

It is almost as if there is a "tick the box" checklist for aspiring wokesters and budding PC "justice" warriors.

It's almost as if there is a "tick the box" checklist...

But does religion have to be part of the culture wars? Seems likely with some people.

[ReformedCharacter]

AFAIK the Evangelicals are 'propping up the numbers' in the CoE which may explain why Justin Welby was made Archbishop of Canterbury as I think he is supportive of them. Regardless, it is a pity that churches are falling into disrepair as many are interesting, beautiful and historical buildings.

RC

[stewamax]

A paradox: meditation is 'in' and wokeful; but the need for the numinous and the concomitant atmosphere engendered by the old churches and 'old' music is fading.
I ask myself whether people are becoming more egocentric in the sense that what matters to them is themselves, and that admitting that there might also be something outside of themselves is a cop-out.

I have reached an age when an evangelical 'arm-waving at 11' service has no attractions, but Evensong - which almost always still uses Cranmer's 1662 Book of Common Prayer and ideally (but less often) the matchless 1611 King James Bible gives me time and space to ponder: about me and to what I am connected in some tenuous and inexplicable way. A C of E form of meditation perhaps...

A curate once asked me why I appeared less than enthusiastic about the handshaking 'sign of peace' and 'fellowship' (whatever than means). I replied that for me the service was an opportunity for introversion and to contemplate JBS Haldane's subtle "the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose" as well as slightly more deistic things.

[gryffron]

Do I care?
With what people get up to on a Sunday afternoon, not in the slightest.
That the CoE still wields considerable political power in this country, with permanent representatives in the Lords. Yes, absolutely. They and their medieval ideas should be separated from apparatus of the state immediately.

Gryff

[MuddyBoots]

AFAIK the Evangelicals are 'propping up the numbers' in the CoE which may explain why Justin Welby was made Archbishop of Canterbury as I think he is supportive of them. Regardless, it is a pity that churches are falling into disrepair as many are interesting, beautiful and historical buildings.

RC

In my urban area the evangelical-charismatic CofE church is thriving, and attracting students and young professionals as well as locals. The other churches are struggling to get attendees at their Sunday services, but their community activities for families, the elderly and so on are popular.

Imo the CofE is still seen as the establishment church, in contrast with more grassroots movements like the Methodists and Baptists, yet the decline is systemic across all the indigenous churches because society overall has changed so much. I hear a lot of comments to the effect that the new religion of postmodern progressives is all this "wokery" with its secular utopianism and universalism.

Personally I'm moving towards Paganism, which is a religion that declined here a long time ago yet is undergoing a revival and reconstruction. So there's always hope. We will always need something to act as the glue which holds families and communities together - the CofE was imposed on us by the monarchy, so perhaps it's not as deeply rooted in our national psyche as small-c conservatives like to think. But I do appreciate the aesthetic of that church.

[MuddyBoots]

In my urban area the evangelical-charismatic CofE church is thriving,

I hear a lot of comments to the effect that the new religion of postmodern progressives is all this "wokery" with its secular utopianism and universalism.

My uncle left his liberal minded CofE church because he got fed up with the constant guilt tripping they were trying to put on him as a successful professional white man, so he moved to a more traditional Anglo-Catholic church instead.

It also ties in with another pet theory of mine, that religious experience and spirituality are important, to put the theory into practice. It was neglected by a lot of mainline liberal churches in the 20th C, leading to the upsurge in things like evangelicals, charismatics, meditation yoga and eastern religion, new age, and yes, paganism too. Even youth movements like psychedelia and rave/trance music were posited as responses to unmet needs for the numinous and even mysticism.

[Mike4]

It strikes me that the easier life gets for the masses (free everything), the less they need religion.

Hence the CofE being on its knees, scratching around for people wanting to bow and scrape to an imaginary friend in the sky.

Isn't it the largest real estate owner in the UK, second to the Crown? Or is that an urban myth?

I find it hard to worry that much.

[gryffron]

Isn't it the largest real estate owner in the UK, second to the Crown? Or is that an urban myth?

Not for many years. Although still significant.

Forestry Commission.                 2.5M acres
National Trust.                      630k acres
MoD.                                 600k acres
Crown Estates.                       350k acres
RSPB.                                320k acres
The Duke of Buccleuch & Queensberry. 240k acres
CoE.                                 200k acres

(Several internet sources)

Gryff

[BigB]

AFAIK the Evangelicals are 'propping up the numbers' in the CoE which may explain why Justin Welby was made Archbishop of Canterbury as I think he is supportive of them. Regardless, it is a pity that churches are falling into disrepair as many are interesting, beautiful and historical buildings.

RC

In my urban area the evangelical-charismatic CofE church is thriving, and attracting students and young professionals as well as locals. The other churches are struggling to get attendees at their Sunday services, but their community activities for families, the elderly and so on are popular.

Imo the CofE is still seen as the establishment church, in contrast with more grassroots movements like the Methodists and Baptists, yet the decline is systemic across all the indigenous churches because society overall has changed so much. I hear a lot of comments to the effect that the new religion of postmodern progressives is all this "wokery" with its secular utopianism and universalism.

Personally I'm moving towards Paganism, which is a religion that declined here a long time ago yet is undergoing a revival and reconstruction. So there's always hope. We will always need something to act as the glue which holds families and communities together - the CofE was imposed on us by the monarchy, so perhaps it's not as deeply rooted in our national psyche as small-c conservatives like to think. But I do appreciate the aesthetic of that church.

Never underestimate the draw of religion for young professionals when they start thinking about schools and the cost of private education - amazing how many thirty somethings find Jesus...

[Dod101]

The Church of Scotland is in exactly the same situation and many of their churches are being sold off. It is no loss in some cases but in many it is a great shame. The irony is that when plans are announced to close a village church, the locals, who may attend church only for the occasional christening, wedding or funeral are usually very vocal in their opposition to closure. Unfortunately they are not prepared to sign up to financially support the church.

Congregational numbers are dwindling and there seems nothing much can be done about it, although churches have always played a significant part in ‘welfare’ within a parish and still do with the promotion of foodbanks, child minding in some cases, and the like. What I mourn is the loss of wonderful music and amazing architecture in some cases at least.

And I like to think that the church provided some moral guidance which helped promote a civilised society. On a much broader issue, none of us knows whether there is a God or not and by the time we find out it will be too late. So I can understand agnostics but I find taking a stand as an atheist to be rather odd. I do not have the certainty for that.

Dod

[didds]

The woke/climate change/lgbt+/politically correct version of Christianity is a turn off for those in the pews.

Is it? PRACTICING Christianity in the UK has been on the slide (ie regular active attendance/participation) for decades, way before anybody became "woke".

https://faithsurvey.co.uk/uk-christianity.html

UK Church membership has declined from 10.6 million in 1930 to 5.5 Million in 2010, or as a percentage of the population; from about 30% to 11.2%.
By 2013, this had declined further to 5.4 million (10.3%). If current trends continue, membership will fall to 8.4% of the population by 2025.

That of course is a cross section of all Christian faiths not just CoE.

Its a big stretch to blame the decline in church attendance on a very few years of "woke" .

The ultra irony being that JC was the original "woke" ...

[didds]

That's an interesting list. "Woke" is a vague poorly defined social/political idea. Climate change is hard science, supported and demonstrated by everything we've found out about the world in the last 150 years. It's very strange to me to see these in the same category

This. Its on a par with blaming Darwin for the decline in church attendance.

[didds]

A hope for churches is that I notice that they are popular with immigrants and minorities. A (black) friend of mine attends a protestant church in South London and tells me that it is packed, and with a lot of young people.

I spoke about this once with an Ex-PM of a pacific nation. I had said how surprised I was, coming from what is in effect a very secular country, how Christianity was so ingrained in his nation's society, evident and widely followed and practised. He pointed out that while _my_ country had had Christianity for a couple of thousand years, his country had only had it a very few hundred after it was introduced - often forcefully - by the likes of my country. Ergo, it was still nascent and "new".

[didds]

... It's very strange to me to see these in the same category

My point perhaps badly worded. What I wanted to say, was that Justin Welby should concentrate on reversing the decline rather than politics. Whilst he plays left wing politics his church is in terminal decline. Which I think is part of the reason.

His church has been in decline for almost 100 years. Since before Welby was even born.

[didds]

The irony is that when plans are announced to close a village church, the locals, who may attend church only for the occasional christening, wedding or funeral are usually very vocal in their opposition to closure. Unfortunately they are not prepared to sign up to financially support the church.

there are patterns here.

CF village pubs, and once a year visitors. To financially support that pub doesn't even need anyone to "sign up" - just walk in and buy a drink (soft drinks are available ).

Same same .