What do you think happens when we die?

[Clitheroekid]

I think this is my first visit to this board, so please forgive me if this topic's been covered before. I did have a look down the list of topics, but couldn't see anything.

The question has arisen as I have suffered the loss of a number of friends and clients over the past few months, some of which were much younger than me, and apparently in good health. It's been upsetting, and combined with a bit of a health scare myself it's made me contemplate my own mortality rather more than I used to.

I was originally brought up as a Catholic, but I'm not sure I ever really believed it, even as a child, and any lingering belief drifted away in my teens. I now have no religious belief at all. Nevertheless I do think it's quite likely that death isn't the end of our existence.

I usually go for a walk after work, and it's good to let my mind unwind from the pressures I face during the working day. Over the past few months, no doubt spurred on by the deaths I've referred to, I've been considering possible outcomes, and it's been an interesting process.

The starting point is that our bodies are essentially just a lot of atoms that are composed in a certain way. They vary from day to day, but the `core bundle' remains much the same until we die.

This in itself is quite thought-provoking - that we are just a bundle of atoms, as is everything else that we see and experience in our lives, and as is everything else in the entire universe. All these atoms are constantly re-arranging themselves, and our birth and death are just an infinitely tiny and insignificant part of that eternal process.

But of course when we die those individual atoms don't die. They just go and form part of something else.

The difficult question is what happens to our consciousness, as nobody really seems to know what it is. However, after much cogitation, my gut feeling is that it exists entirely independent of our body, and that when our body dies it continues to exist. I suppose this is what Christians would term our soul, and I’ll use that term for convenience.

So far, so Christian. However, the idea that our soul should go to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory has always seemed completely absurd to me. As God supposedly created us in the first place why would he create some individuals knowing (he being omnipotent) that they would be ultimately condemned to eternal damnation? Likewise, Heaven might be great at first, but the novelty of perfection would soon wear off, and the prospect of eternal perfection sounds worse than Hell!

The religions that believe in reincarnation have always seemed a lot more sensible, particularly the notion that living a bad life means a downgrade in the next life and vice versa. But that's also fraught with issues, particularly the fact that as I understand it there are only a limited number of steps to reach nirvana (or whatever the equivalent is) and then you're stuck with eternal perfection again.

(Incidentally, my apologies to members of such religions for my total ignorance – this may not be at all an accurate reflection of those beliefs, but it’s what I’ve absorbed over the years).

From that thought came the notion that our soul is indeed immortal, but that it simply occupies a body for a lifetime for the sake of the experience - like going on holiday. When the body dies the soul `returns to base', and decides on its next adventure. It might decide to occupy the body of a giraffe in its next life, or a cockroach. And I would think that the soul could also decide whether or not during that life experience it wanted to be aware that it was merely occupying the object.

Thinking on from that there's no logical reason why the soul couldn't also occupy things that seem to us inanimate. It might decide to be a drop of water, or an individual atom, or an entire galaxy – even the entire universe?

One possible - and rather startling - conclusion from all this is that I am, in fact, what some would call God, but that I won't actually discover this until I die. In other words, what I perceive as other people, places and things have simply been created by me as I go through life but without my knowing that I was doing so.

I think this may be a form of solipsism, but I don't know enough about it to be sure. In any case, I don’t actually believe this to be the case; it’s merely an interesting possibility.

But whether or not that's the case I like the idea of my soul being able to occupy anything it wants to and experience that object's life. It would obviously be possible to travel freely throughout time, and in theory, therefore, it would even be possible to travel back and occupy one's own body for a second or third or millionth time round, this time making different life choices, just to see how they would turn out.

Of course the obvious question is, “What's the point?” But I think that's a question that simply doesn't apply. It's derived from the very human belief that every action must have a purpose, but that itself is a product of our knowledge of mortality, and that time is limited to achieve things. When time is not limited there’s no need for anything to have a purpose - it just `is'.

I do realise that this is all very rambling, and is nowhere near to a coherent philosophy. However, I actually find it a fairly comforting thought that my `soul' can, and probably will live on, even if it next time round it inhabits a cockroach!

I'd be very interested to know what others believe, or at least think may happen. I was tempted to do a poll, but unfortunately I realised there were just too many possibilities.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

A thought provoking post, for both you and the reader.

I've spent the last 8 months contemplating my own mortality after my Mum died. In very simple terms, I'm next.

About 6 months before she died Mum told me she didn't want to go. Her words broke my heart. I felt helpless and lonely.

I can't say what I believe will happen to me when it's my turn to depart. I can't believe in anything. I think, but am not sure, that whilst I'm here my soul has a chance to be happy. I'd like to be happy whilst I'm here, but some days I struggle. We seem to be in a world that worships negativity, even rewards it.

Before I go I have the opportunity to support my daughter. To give her information, to make sure she understands it really is a one way ticket and she can enjoy every moment of it. There are no pressures that she has to accept or be coerced into becoming accustomed to just because our society and ways demand it.

If I have a soul, if that soul survives me when my mortal body gives in, I think all it would want to see and know is that my daughter is enjoying every moment of her life and is surrounded by and enriched by positive people.

AiY(D)

[Itsallaguess]

I was originally brought up as a Catholic, but I'm not sure I ever really believed it, even as a child, and any lingering belief drifted away in my teens.

I now have no religious belief at all. Nevertheless I do think it's quite likely that death isn't the end of our existence.

If we might consider 'religions' as broadly being human constructs to enable us to navigate our worldly existence without persistently being worried about what happens 'at the end', then I'd perhaps suggest that you've largely just constructed your own method of doing that, without actually signing up to any of the more regular, long-established outlets...

That certainly isn't a criticism CK, because it's exactly what I've done too, but my version is just different to yours, that's all...

It's interesting though, because even as a non-religious person myself, I think there's large parts of many religions that echo with my own broad sentiments, and which I try to live up to as best I can, simply with the view that they often make so much sense even outside of any 'religious' setting...

Take the Christian 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' - if you think about it, that clearly sensible and well-intended guidance might be seen to sit 100% aligned with your own 'cycled-souls' theory, because it's almost suggesting that those 'others' that you might come across might very well *be* you, and heck, I'm sure you'd like 'you' to treat 'you' well, wouldn't you?...

I know I would...

Me? I think what happens when we die is exactly the same as what happened before we were born...

Nothing...

No pain. No heaven. No hell. No cockroaches...

I actually take some comfort from that, although I can completely understand why others might take a different view.

I personally think it's almost the ultimate pinnacle of the human ego to think that 'surely this can't be it?', although that's absolutely not a personal dig against you for raising this really very interesting topic here, but more a dig at the human condition, and it's absolute and deep-seated need for it not to be...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[JohnB]

When you're dead you're dead, but CK's issues with that is why humans invented religions and death rites and memorials. They give solace, but I always wonder how much the living suffered economically to bury valuable items with the dead or spend time building tombs rather than houses. After death you only live on in the memories of others.

[servodude]

I was originally brought up as a Catholic, but I'm not sure I ever really believed it, even as a child, and any lingering belief drifted away in my teens.

I now have no religious belief at all. Nevertheless I do think it's quite likely that death isn't the end of our existence.

If we might consider 'religions' as broadly being human constructs to enable us to navigate our worldly existence without persistently being worried about what happens 'at the end', then I'd perhaps suggest that you've largely just constructed your own method of doing that, without actually signing up to any of the more regular, long-established outlets...

That certainly isn't a criticism CK, because it's exactly what I've done too, but my version is just different to yours, that's all...

It's interesting though, because even as a non-religious person myself, I think there's large parts of many religions that echo with my own sentiments, and which I try to live up to.

Take the Christian 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' - if you think about it, that clearly sensible and well-intended guidance might be seen to sit 100% aligned with your own 'cycled-souls' theory, because it's almost suggesting that those 'others' that you might come across might very well *be* you, and heck, I'm sure you'd like 'you' to treat 'you' well, wouldn't you?...

I know I would...

Me? I think what happens when we die is exactly the same as what happened before we were born...

Nothing...

No pain. No heaven. No hell. No cockroaches...

I actually take some comfort from that, although I can completely understand why others might take a different view.

I personally think it's almost the ultimate pinnacle of the human ego to think that 'surely this can't be it?', although that's absolutely not a personal dig against you for raising this really very interesting topic here, but more a dig at the human condition, and it's absolute need for it not to be...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

That's pretty much how I see it also.

I think Keanu Reeves hit the nail on the head when asked the question with: "I know that the ones who love us will miss us."

Can't argue with that... even if it doesn't address the bigger existential and eschatological questions!

On those, a long time back, as a formerly (big-C) catholic engineering student I came as close as one can to certainty that we can't really understand our position as humans in the grand scheme of thing; we couldn't if we tried
I was probably hungover in a control class that was concerned with matrix rank (and specifically rank deficiency)
- a point lives on a line, a line on a surface, a surface on a volume and that volume on some hypercube (other shapes available) ad infinitum.
- you can't describe where something is until you are at least one dimension beyond it beacuse there isn't the context
and strangely that gave me the internal nod, and reassurance (because it seemed like a provably fruitless exercise), to stop concerning myself with the BIG questions about "life, the universe and everything"
because as a human (I'm sure of that - presently ) I am not really in a position to look at myself in sufficiently wide context to understand what's going on
I'm a human line on the surface of existence and beyond that I don't have the necessary dimensions to form a concept of what there really is
- that bit beyond my "surface" ??? could be god/God/turtles all the way down - who knows??!
But I'm content that I've got a mathematical precedent that says I can't hold the idea of it in my head, and to try.. that way madness lies (a bit like Lovecraft meets Linear Algebra)

So yeah - I believe this is it to any meaningful degree for the synaptical triggerings that form the idea of who I am on this present meatware platform

Let's make it a good one

- sd

[pje16]

To add a touch of levity
When people who are dying say they can see a bright light
it means they are coming back as a moth

[Dod101]

Most of these posts are very thought provoking. I attend church as a Protestant but as I get nearer to the end there is an awful lot that I find myself questioning. However there is no doubt that any religion gives a lot of people great comfort, including myself at times of great stress as when my two wives died 16 years apart and both relatively young at around the age of 60. But religion has given humankind an enormous amount apart from comfort (in its broadest sense), in wonderful music, buildings and if you like 'rules' for a relatively civilised life and society.

However, I am rather with CK on a lot of this. I think the soul returns as something else or at least it lives on in some form. An alternative belief which I am also wrestling with is my feeling that there is life after death. I am sure though that we do not 'go to Heaven' and meet all those souls that we have known previously! With great respect to JohnB, rightly or wrongly I could not live and hold the beliefs and negativity which he appears to hold. I need something more than that, and so do most people I think to give any meaning to life.

Dod

[pje16]

Apologies for my earlier frivolous post
There are indeed some very considered posts on here
I am torn between thinking surely when you die that is not the end, but there is no evidence to support that so it is very hard to believe, or tjhe alternative being that is there some form of afterlife, quite how that would take place I have no idea

[CliffEdge]

What an enormous coincidence that the universe began 14 billion years ago and I just happen to be alive now. Or put it another way: now is just when I happen to be alive, ie conscious and sentient.

[staffordian]

In some ways, I equate death with sleep.

I fall asleep at night and I am "dead to the world".

Luckily, so far, I have awoken every morning, and barring dreaming, I might as well have been dead in the sense that I was totally unaware of anything and everything.

I've always assumed death will be like this. It's just how one gets there which could be the worry. Sudden and painless, or long and drawn out, with plenty of time to ponder such things...

[ReformedCharacter]

With great respect to JohnB, rightly or wrongly I could not live and hold the beliefs and negativity which he appears to hold. I need something more than that, and so do most people I think to give any meaning to life.

Dod

Without wishing to state an opinion one way or another, nor criticise such views, I have a problem with 'I need something more...' type statements. I can well understand the sentiment but a need to hold a belief is a poor - but understandable - rationale to hold such a belief if one is trying to find 'the truth' rather than something that makes the travails of life easier to come to terms with. Humans have a great disposition for self-delusion and many find the idea of life as essentially meaningless too uncomfortable to accept.

RC

[staffordian]

I was pondering a related subject just the other day.

We humans like to think we are a cut above the rest of the animal kingdom in terms of intelligence and the ability to reason.

Whether or not this is a valid viewpoint, it set me thinking about the life of such things as the swans and ducks on our local lake, or for that matter, any animal. Do they spend the day contemplating their existence and worrying about the after-life?

The days must seem very long if all they have to think about is where their next meal is coming from or whether to swim up and down the lake or go for a wander on the nearby grass. No holidays to look forward to, no thinking about whether they need to budget for their next energy bill, just, it appears to us, a pretty pointless existence.

It all goes back to the unanswerable question, how did we all get here and why are we here.

Thinking too hard about it makes my brain hurt

[pje16]

It all goes back to the unanswerable question, how did we all get here and why are we here.

The answer to that is 42

[Dod101]

With great respect to JohnB, rightly or wrongly I could not live and hold the beliefs and negativity which he appears to hold. I need something more than that, and so do most people I think to give any meaning to life.

Dod

Without wishing to state an opinion one way or another, nor criticise such views, I have a problem with 'I need something more...' type statements. I can well understand the sentiment but a need to hold a belief is a poor - but understandable - rationale to hold such a belief if one is trying to find 'the truth' rather than something that makes the travails of life easier to come to terms with. Humans have a great disposition for self-delusion and many find the idea of life as essentially meaningless too uncomfortable to accept.

RC

I do not disagree with any of that. I can only say what I feel. I could not live with negativity but neither am I trying to find 'the truth'. Better people or at least cleverer people than me have been wrestling with that for long enough and none have come to an answer.

People who hold that there is nothing more in life can no more prove that than I could that there is. But I cannot believe that this is it.

Dod

[monabri]

I'd counter this question with another...What happens to animals when THEY die?

Why restrict the question to mere humans?


Personally I think we're just a chemical reaction beginning at the moment of conception and running until we fizzle out.

[ReformedCharacter]

Without wishing to state an opinion one way or another, nor criticise such views, I have a problem with 'I need something more...' type statements. I can well understand the sentiment but a need to hold a belief is a poor - but understandable - rationale to hold such a belief if one is trying to find 'the truth' rather than something that makes the travails of life easier to come to terms with. Humans have a great disposition for self-delusion and many find the idea of life as essentially meaningless too uncomfortable to accept.

RC

I do not disagree with any of that. I can only say what I feel. I could not live with negativity but neither am I trying to find 'the truth'. Better people or at least cleverer people than me have been wrestling with that for long enough and none have come to an answer.

People who hold that there is nothing more in life can no more prove that than I could that there is. But I cannot believe that this is it.

Dod

When it comes to matters of spiritual or religious belief perhaps we can agree that we have moved beyond the realm of 'proof' or 'fact'. Somewhere on Youtube is an interview with Carl Jung, made at his home and towards the end of his life. The interviewer asked him 'Do you believe in God?' Jung paused for a moment and said, 'No, I don't believe in God, I know'. So for some, a religious or spiritual belief is a result of the experience of the divine rather than the teachings to be found in books or the words of those who say they know. The 13c. Christian mystic Mechthild of Magdeburg said that the day of her spiritual awakening occurred when she saw and knew that she saw God in all things and all things in God. That has been my experience too.

RC

[CliffEdge]

Without wishing to state an opinion one way or another, nor criticise such views, I have a problem with 'I need something more...' type statements. I can well understand the sentiment but a need to hold a belief is a poor - but understandable - rationale to hold such a belief if one is trying to find 'the truth' rather than something that makes the travails of life easier to come to terms with. Humans have a great disposition for self-delusion and many find the idea of life as essentially meaningless too uncomfortable to accept.

RC

I do not disagree with any of that. I can only say what I feel. I could not live with negativity but neither am I trying to find 'the truth'. Better people or at least cleverer people than me have been wrestling with that for long enough and none have come to an answer.

People who hold that there is nothing more in life can no more prove that than I could that there is. But I cannot believe that this is it.

Dod

When it comes to matters of spiritual or religious belief perhaps we can agree that we have moved beyond the realm of 'proof' or 'fact'. Somewhere on Youtube is an interview with Carl Jung, made at his home and towards the end of his life. The interviewer asked him 'Do you believe in God?' Jung paused for a moment and said, 'No, I don't believe in God, I know'. So for some, a religious or spiritual belief is a result of the experience of the divine rather than the teachings to be found in books or the words of those who say they know. The 13c. Christian mystic Mechthild of Magdeburg said that the day of her spiritual awakening occurred when she saw and knew that she saw God in all things and all things in God. That has been my experience too.

RC

So what is God?

[ReformedCharacter]

So what is God?

You'll have to find that out for yourself, or not as the case may be.

RC

[bluedonkey]

In some ways, I equate death with sleep.

I fall asleep at night and I am "dead to the world".

Luckily, so far, I have awoken every morning, and barring dreaming, I might as well have been dead in the sense that I was totally unaware of anything and everything.

I've always assumed death will be like this. It's just how one gets there which could be the worry. Sudden and painless, or long and drawn out, with plenty of time to ponder such things...

Yes, my pov as well. Rather than thinking of what happens next - decomposition imv - the related issue that I find more relevant is dealing with my own mortality.

[bluedonkey]

So what is God?

You'll have to find that out for yourself, or not as the case may be.

RC

He/she/it is whatever you want God to be. The beauty of the god concept is that no one can prove you wrong.