The Lemon Fool

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 6:45 pm**

Midsmartin wrote:"if you want to know about God you will have to find out for yourself"

In most other fields we are able to present evidence to each other when we discuss the nature of things. We don't usually just have to find out for ourself. If there is a God, then this should still apply. There should be evidence that can be put forward to one another, particularly if it's a god who wants us to know he exists.

So either God does not exist, or s/he does but wishes to hide from us. If there is a deity, there is I suppose no reason to assume that it gives a damn whether we believe in it, or to assume it benevolent, or rational, or consistent.

Quite agree. It is a massive human conceit to think that there is some all powerful supernatural being who cares about each individual here, and is usually portrayed as looking like a bearded grandfather. As one Greek philosopher wrote - if horse had gods, they would be horses. ie we make up god in own image. No we are specs of dust, very transitory, on a microscopic lump of rock orbiting a small star, amongst billions of stars, in a small galaxy amongst billions of other galaxies in a universe which may be one of countless universes. It doesn't worry me that this is so.

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 6:47 pm**

Midsmartin wrote:Is it even possible for a god to exist? Is it possible for anything to exist outside space/time? Someone needs to demonstrate a supernatural realm where it is possible for events to occur and that we can investigate.

Ah, but have you considered the possibility that you are actually God yourself?

One explanation for what you understand to be your life would be is that you are God, and that you have created everything you believe to exist, but for whatever reason you are unaware of having done so, at least in your present body.

This would mean that what you believe to be your life as a human being is simply a game that you have set yourself as God, perhaps just to help pass the time, of which there is an awful lot.

In this theory I am also God, but he's playing a different game through my body and my life. And my friendly cockroach is also God, again playing a different game.

But it's essential that the people / objects playing the game are completely unaware that they're doing so - they must believe (as you and I do) that everything they experience is 100% real. A bit like a theistic version of that excellent film, The Truman Show - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120382/

In my original post I said that we are only an agglomeration of atoms arranged in a certain way. But I don't actually know that to be the case. I believe it because I've been told it's true by people that I have decided to credit with more knowledge than I have. But I've no means of proving that it's true.

But adopting the premise that I might indeed be God then I would have created that `knowledge' as part of the game. There may be no such thing as physical matter at all. Indeed, there may be no such thing as a universe, or even space or time. These may all simply be concepts that I've created as background material for the game, but because I'm unaware that I've created them, and believe I'm something called an intelligent human being, I apply what I see as rational thought to verify their existence.

I must again emphasise (before people start calling my local mental health trust to have me sectioned!) that I do not remotely believe any of this. However, I do accept that there are some concepts - such as infinite space and time - that I simply cannot ever understand, and when one accepts that then anything is a theoretical possibility, including this.

Anyway, it provides me with much entertainment as I take my evening constitutional

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 6:48 pm**

Midsmartin wrote:
In most other fields we are able to present evidence to each other when we discuss the nature of things. We don't usually just have to find out for ourself.

If there is a God, then this should still apply. There should be evidence that can be put forward to one another, particularly if it's a god who wants us to know he exists.

But surely on a public forum such as this, people should be quite able to discuss their own personal beliefs around an interesting topic like this without necessarily being concerned with the risk of subsequent interrogation though?

If people want to be open with any such reasoning, then that's one thing, and perhaps such offered reasoning might then be open for discussion, but if no personal reasoning is offered up for discussion, then I really don't think there should be any sort of onus on people to feel that they have to necessarily provide it...

Just to be clear - I say the above as a non-believer, but I do think that people should be able to hold personal beliefs in the religious field that they don't have to particularly 'explain' to anyone else...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 6:59 pm**

The question should not be "What do you think happens when we die" but "what can we do before we die. We all have views on religion; it's comforting to think that there is something in the afterlife but my own view is when you are dead you are dead. That's it. Finito.

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 7:04 pm**

Clitheroekid wrote:
One explanation for what you understand to be your life would be is that you are God, and that you have created everything you believe to exist, but for whatever reason you are unaware of having done so, at least in your present body.

This would mean that what you believe to be your life as a human being is simply a game that you have set yourself as God, perhaps just to help pass the time, of which there is an awful lot.

In this theory I am also God, but he's playing a different game through my body and my life.

Well done CK - we've all been here waiting for you to reach this stage of enlightenment before we can now all move on to what we like to call 'Stage 2'.

Don't worry about anything - just go to sleep tonight as normal, and someone will be there in the morning to prepare everything for you...

Sleep well...

:O)

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 7:11 pm**

Midsmartin wrote:"if you want to know about God you will have to find out for yourself"

In most other fields we are able to present evidence to each other when we discuss the nature of things. We don't usually just have to find out for ourself.

I expect that you learnt about sex when you were fairly young at school. Did you gain nothing from experiencing it yourself

Assuming that you have

Midsmartin wrote:If there is a God, then this should still apply. There should be evidence that can be put forward to one another, particularly if it's a god who wants us to know he exists.

In 'most other fields' we accept that there things beyond our understanding, whether it be 'beauty' or what happened before the Big Bang. so we clearly can discuss such things without 'evidence'. Why should 'a god' want us to know that 'he' exists? But some Christians seem to believe that as far as I can tell.

Midsmartin wrote:So either God does not exist, or s/he does but wishes to hide from us.

That's false dichotomy. God could exist but you may be incapable of perceiving God. Apparently we most likely live in a world with perhaps 10 dimensions, how many do you experience? Are they 'hiding' or can we just not perceive them?

RC

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 7:13 pm**

I think Voltaire was onto something, that's it's possible to think about this stuff too much. As he said in the final line of the book :-

"All that is very well," answered Candide, "but let us cultivate our garden."

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 7:18 pm**

CliffEdge wrote:It is worth reading a bit of discussion on Thomas Aquinas and the problems with God if you can find it. But I'm straying off topic so won't continue.

I vaguely recall writing an essay in about 1974 on the subject of his ontological argument for the proof of the existence of God. Something about the fact that because we can imagine a perfect being then that entails that "he" must exist.

But I was hungover when I wrote it and I do recall my Professor saying something like "Mister Lootman, this essay looks like it was thrown together at the last minute". It was.

As for any afterlife, I think I might prefer that there is not one. Living forever in some form sounds like a curse. And believing there is nothing after death encourages a focus on what you do now, because that is all there is.

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 7:18 pm**

scrumpyjack wrote:Quite agree. It is a massive human conceit to think that there is some all powerful supernatural being who cares about each individual here, and is usually portrayed as looking like a bearded grandfather.

True, but some people take comfort in that

RC

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 7:27 pm**

ReformedCharacter wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:Quite agree. It is a massive human conceit to think that there is some all powerful supernatural being who cares about each individual here, and is usually portrayed as looking like a bearded grandfather.

True, but some people take comfort in that

They do, which is why Karl Marx described religion as the opium of the people.

But organised churches have a nasty habit of exploiting that sense of comfort.

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 10:26 pm**

Devil - 'This is the lake of lava you will be spending eternity in'

Me - 'Actually, since we're underground, it would be magma...'

Devil - 'You do understand this is why you're here, right?'

Cheers!

Itsallaguess

Posted: **August 5th, 2022, 10:31 pm**

scrumpyjack wrote:
Midsmartin wrote:"if you want to know about God you will have to find out for yourself"

In most other fields we are able to present evidence to each other when we discuss the nature of things. We don't usually just have to find out for ourself. If there is a God, then this should still apply. There should be evidence that can be put forward to one another, particularly if it's a god who wants us to know he exists.

So either God does not exist, or s/he does but wishes to hide from us. If there is a deity, there is I suppose no reason to assume that it gives a damn whether we believe in it, or to assume it benevolent, or rational, or consistent.

Quite agree. It is a massive human conceit to think that there is some all powerful supernatural being who cares about each individual here, and is usually portrayed as looking like a bearded grandfather. As one Greek philosopher wrote - if horse had gods, they would be horses. ie we make up god in own image. No we are specs of dust, very transitory, on a microscopic lump of rock orbiting a small star, amongst billions of stars, in a small galaxy amongst billions of other galaxies in a universe which may be one of countless universes. It doesn't worry me that this is so.

There's a song in there somewhere.

Posted: **August 7th, 2022, 10:03 pm**

I think you’re gone. One chance. Game over. Might as well do your best with it and stop wasting your life trying to think up excuses for not enjoying it now.

Gryff

Posted: **September 7th, 2022, 7:45 pm**

I believe the traditional Catholic teaching on what happens.

I believe that after death every person will face their own judgement by God, and then they will either enter Heaven, Purgatory, or separation from God.

Posted: **September 8th, 2022, 8:52 am**

Why do I need to guess..? Have a bit of patience and you'll find out for yourself!

Posted: **September 8th, 2022, 9:36 am**

monabri wrote:Why do I need to guess..? Have a bit of patience and you'll find out for yourself!

Ah! But only if...

Posted: **September 8th, 2022, 11:24 am**

Tara wrote:I believe the traditional Catholic teaching on what happens.

I believe that after death every person will face their own judgement by God, and then they will either enter Heaven, Purgatory, or separation from God.

Fair enough, but why do you believe that?

RC

Posted: **September 8th, 2022, 11:40 am**

XFool wrote:
monabri wrote:Why do I need to guess..? Have a bit of patience and you'll find out for yourself!

Ah! But only if...

http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/lehre/WS06/pmo/eng/audio/Devil.pdf

Posted: **September 8th, 2022, 12:49 pm**

I'm going to Heaven when I die....failing that, Swansea.

( with apologies to The League of Gentlemen).

Posted: **September 9th, 2022, 1:35 am**

ReformedCharacter wrote:
Tara wrote:I believe the traditional Catholic teaching on what happens.

I believe that after death every person will face their own judgement by God, and then they will either enter Heaven, Purgatory, or separation from God.

Fair enough, but why do you believe that?

RC

Because it is a fundamental part of Catholic teaching and the Catholic Faith.

The Lemon Fool

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