Archie Battersbee

[Dod101]

Like many people I have no doubt, I have been following the saga of this poor boy and his family. The first thing to say is that I have the greatest sympathy for the mother. Which mother would not be distraught to be caught up in these circumstances? However, I think she is now verging on the self indulgent, in that she cannot see that from the best advice available there is no prospect of any recovery in the son's situation and it seems unlikely that he could ever have anything like a meaningful life. Furthermore she must be putting the medical staff under the most severe physical and emotional stress, not to say the time wasting that is going on in the Courts.

Mind you, I do not understand why the hospital will not let him be transferred to a hospice. If he dies on the way, so be it.

What do others think?

Dod

[Padders72]

I think the parents have gone litigation mad, where is the funding for it coming from I wonder. It is as you say a very distressing situation but the ongoing litigation does no one any good, least of all them.

[mc2fool]

Mind you, I do not understand why the hospital will not let him be transferred to a hospice. If he dies on the way, so be it.

Yes, it does seem a paradoxical position: we won't let you transfer him to a hospice 'cos in his situation he'll likely to die if you do; instead we want to turn off his life support and let him die.....

The judge's decision to not allow the transfer is at: https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/barts-health-nhs-trust-v-holly-dance-and-others/

It's a 16 page PDF which includes a list of what's required to care for Archie day to day.

On the overall matter, I can only be grateful for not being, and never have been, in the situation to make such decisions, either as a parent or as a doctor or as a judge. I don't envy any of them, and sympathise enormously with the mother wanting to just give Archie every last chance, even where there is none.

[scrumpyjack]

Mind you, I do not understand why the hospital will not let him be transferred to a hospice. If he dies on the way, so be it.

Yes, it does seem a paradoxical position: we won't let you transfer him to a hospice 'cos in his situation he'll likely to die if you do; instead we want to turn off his life support and let him die.....

The judge's decision to not allow the transfer is at: https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/barts-health-nhs-trust-v-holly-dance-and-others/

It's a 16 page PDF which includes a list of what's required to care for Archie day to day.

On the overall matter, I can only be grateful for not being, and never have been, in the situation to make such decisions, either as a parent or as a doctor or as a judge. I don't envy any of them, and sympathise enormously with the mother wanting to just give Archie every last chance, even where there is none.

I have been in that situation as a father. It is absolutely beyond endurance and I can quite understand parents not being able to behave rationally. It took my dearest daughter four and a half months to die from the point they said it was hopeless and we were not even able to visit her because of Covid until very near the end. I was worried we might get pressured into accepting a decision by the medics and consulted lawyers about that. We were reassured that we had far more rights than we realised and that the impression we were given by the medical team that it was their decision was in fact wrong. In the end she was transferred to a specialist unit under the professor who had been in charge of the Royal College of Physicians working party on the subject of the ‘best interests decision’ and the withdrawal of treatment. They were brilliant and dealt with everything in a very thorough, professional and sympathetic way. But it is something no parent should go through.

[XFool]

I heard Robert Winston interviewed about this on the radio this morning. He made the point that, since Archie is now brainstem dead, he has in fact already died. So the parents wish for "a chance" or even "a choice of time of death" has, in reality, already been taken from them.

It seems to be less about Archie and more about his parents difficulty in coming to terms with the reality.

[mc2fool]

I think the parents have gone litigation mad, where is the funding for it coming from I wonder.

Christian Concern. https://christianconcern.com/cccases/archie-battersbee/

[Spet0789]

The tragic reality is that this poor little boy died months ago when his brain was irretrievably damaged.

His parents, lacking the ability to recognise that appalling truth, having no trust in the multiple medical professionals who advised them of the best interests of their son and funded by religious extremists have wasted hundreds of thousands of scarce NHS funding.

An awful situation for any parent but the losers here are poor Archie and the NHS budget.

[Dod101]

As anyone interested will know, Archie died earlier today. I cannot imagine what that must be like for the parents but life happens, as many of us will know and so does death. No point in criticising the mother but I cannot help thinking that she was very poorly advised at some point, and where the funds came from for all these court appeals I do not know. I hope not from public funds.

He will now be at peace unless as Spet has said he in fact died in any normal meaning of the word some time ago.

Dod

[bluedonkey]

A bit of a side issue but Dod, I thought you were somewhat agin non financial threads on this forum? A change of mind?

[Dod101]

A bit of a side issue but Dod, I thought you were somewhat agin non financial threads on this forum? A change of mind?

Did I give that impression? Well yes, but some subjects throw themselves into the limelight.

In any case, politics etc is not quite the same as a strong human interest story, at least not to me.

Dod

[mc2fool]

...and where the funds came from for all these court appeals I do not know.

Two posts up from yours, Dod. viewtopic.php?p=520285#p520285

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

"Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:
A study carried out by the regulatory body found at the time that at least 82 young people died as a result of the “game”."

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/archie-battersbee-whats-the-blackout-challenge-b2139497.html

I'm a bit surprised that anyone can hold their breath until they pass out, I'd have thought the body's natural reactions would have stopped it getting that far; obviously some people (inc. sadly 82 young people) have more willpower than me. Although some reports do say that Archie had "a ligature over his head" (but not around his neck?!?). https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2022-08 ... e-says-mum

[Dod101]

...and where the funds came from for all these court appeals I do not know.

Two posts up from yours, Dod. viewtopic.php?p=520285#p520285

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

"Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:
A study carried out by the regulatory body found at the time that at least 82 young people died as a result of the “game”."

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/archie-battersbee-whats-the-blackout-challenge-b2139497.html

I'm a bit surprised that anyone can hold their breath until they pass out, I'd have thought the body's natural reactions would have stopped it getting that far; obviously some people (inc. sadly 82 young people) have more willpower than me. Although some reports do say that Archie had "a ligature over his head" (but not around his neck?!?). https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2022-08 ... e-says-mum

Whatever, the fact is that there can be no 'answer' to this sort of situation but I do feel that the parents were ill advised (as they surely must have been) to go to Court, again and again. Simply prolonging their agony.

Dod

[moorfield]

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

"[i]Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:

Quite so. This hasn't been given enough attention or debate in the press, and should be. Parents have to manage their young childrens' exposure to social media carefully. It's an impossible job, which most can't or don't bother with. I am not saying his parents didn't, but imo 12 yrs old is too young to be using smartphones. I see dozens of even younger primary school age children wandering around with them these days which I think is rather sad. And that's where all these difficulties with social media begin. Lazy parenting, there I've said it.

[servodude]

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

"[i]Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:

Quite so. This hasn't been given enough attention or debate in the press, and should be. Parents have to manage their young childrens' exposure to social media carefully. It's an impossible job, which most can't or don't bother with. I am not saying his parents didn't, but imo 12 yrs old is too young to be using smartphones. I see dozens of even younger primary school age children wandering around with them these days which I think is rather sad. And that's where all these difficulties with social media begin. Lazy parenting, there I've said it.

Most of my kids' cohort got their first phone on going to high school (mine are 18 &15 now - so they were probably 12). That's when you start travelling further afield unaccompanied or doing things where your plans can change; a phone makes sense, and to have a dumb phone would have been burying your head in the sand. Social media is a different thing to a phone; as parents we control their plan/phone account and you need to give them suitable access, necessary boundaries, sufficient freedom and the knowledge they can and should talk to you about stuff.

That said some kids have always perished through misadventure and it seems a bit early to blame the parents when they haven't yet pulled the plug.

This sad case seems like a misjudged and intrusive circus (it's getting coverage in Australia)

[Itsallaguess]

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:

Quite so. This hasn't been given enough attention or debate in the press, and should be.

From what I've read about this terribly sad case, I'm not sure there's any real certainty yet regarding the influence of any 'blackout challenge' in this tragedy, and I think it will probably be best to await the outcome of any related inquiry before any certainty might be attributed.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:

Quite so. This hasn't been given enough attention or debate in the press, and should be.

From what I've read about this terribly sad case, I'm not sure there's any real certainty yet regarding the influence of any 'blackout challenge' in this tragedy, and I think it will probably be best to await the outcome of any related inquiry before any such certainty might be attributed.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

That is of course a side issue, important as it may be. I think the issues raised by the way the late stages of the boy's life were handled are quite enough to be going on with.

Dod

[Mike4]

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:

Quite so. This hasn't been given enough attention or debate in the press, and should be.

From what I've read about this terribly sad case, I'm not sure there's any real certainty yet regarding the influence of any 'blackout challenge' in this tragedy, and I think it will probably be best to await the outcome of any related inquiry before any such certainty might be attributed.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

That is of course a side issue, important as it may be. I think the issues raised by the way the late stages of the boy's life were handled are quite enough to be going on with.

Dod

I don't see why bigger issues should prevent the side issues being examined.

[Padders72]

In all the coverage of the court cases I'd somehow missed how Archie's condition came about.

Archie Battersbee was allegedly taking part in a dangerous social media trend called the “blackout challenge” before his mother found him unconscious at their family home in April.
:
The “blackout challenge” is a dare that encourages those who try it to hold their breath until they pass out due to a lack of oxygen.
:

Quite so. This hasn't been given enough attention or debate in the press, and should be.

From what I've read about this terribly sad case, I'm not sure there's any real certainty yet regarding the influence of any 'blackout challenge' in this tragedy, and I think it will probably be best to await the outcome of any related inquiry before any certainty might be attributed.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Is the elephant in the room here, and partly the reason the media are showing some unexpected delicacy, that there is a suspicion of attempted suicide? At least one news source mentions a ligature, and not just round the head. That might not sit well with the Christian beliefs aspect.

[mc2fool]

From what I've read about this terribly sad case, I'm not sure there's any real certainty yet regarding the influence of any 'blackout challenge' in this tragedy, and I think it will probably be best to await the outcome of any related inquiry before any such certainty might be attributed

That is of course a side issue, important as it may be. I think the issues raised by the way the late stages of the boy's life were handled are quite enough to be going on with.

I don't see why bigger issues should prevent the side issues being examined.

Indeed, and in fact there wouldn't be any discussion of the secondary issue -- whether to turn off life support or not -- if it hadn't been for the primary issue -- allegedly taking part in the “blackout challenge” -- that was (allegedly) the proximate cause of putting him into that situation.

Especially so as 82 children have already died from it and TikTok is facing three lawsuits in regards to it (see previously linked to Independent article).

Is the elephant in the room here, and partly the reason the media are showing some unexpected delicacy, that there is a suspicion of attempted suicide? At least one news source mentions a ligature, and not just round the head. That might not sit well with the Christian beliefs aspect.

I've not seen any suggestions of suicide from the main stream media (delicacy? the media?) and all of the mentions of a ligature I've seen have been round the head (which, as I noted above, is kind of strange). Got a link to the one(s) you're referring to, please?

[Padders72]

From what I've read about this terribly sad case, I'm not sure there's any real certainty yet regarding the influence of any 'blackout challenge' in this tragedy, and I think it will probably be best to await the outcome of any related inquiry before any such certainty might be attributed

That is of course a side issue, important as it may be. I think the issues raised by the way the late stages of the boy's life were handled are quite enough to be going on with.

I don't see why bigger issues should prevent the side issues being examined.

Indeed, and in fact there wouldn't be any discussion of the secondary issue -- whether to turn off life support or not -- if it hadn't been for the primary issue -- allegedly taking part in the “blackout challenge” -- that was (allegedly) the proximate cause of putting him into that situation.

Especially so as 82 children have already died from it and TikTok is facing three lawsuits in regards to it (see previously linked to Independent article).

Is the elephant in the room here, and partly the reason the media are showing some unexpected delicacy, that there is a suspicion of attempted suicide? At least one news source mentions a ligature, and not just round the head. That might not sit well with the Christian beliefs aspect.

I've not seen any suggestions of suicide from the main stream media (delicacy? the media?) and all of the mentions of a ligature I've seen have been round the head (which, as I noted above, is kind of strange). Got a link to the one(s) you're referring to, please?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... t-happened

The Graun have it round his neck rather than head. Not exactly gutter press so there is some credence perhaps. That said, the intention still could have been something less than suicide of course, but I do wonder. I can see why a parent might want the cause to be anything but.